Best Of
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Ok first off if you actually carefully listen to all the Steven's discussion of "Instanced' content is dose NOT sound like the typical WoW experience.
He dose not say "20% of Dungeons are instanced" he says "20% of CONTENT is instanced".
What he's described might better be called "locked room" stages in dungeons. Aka your party goes into some space that becomes cut off from the rest of the world for a time as you do a boss fight or face some other PvE challenge under a strict group size cap, which will either TPK you or that you finish and exit from. It has always been expressed as a sub-section of a larger challenge with the threat of PvP before and after.
It dose not implay an unlimited throughput capacity of players or a fully private pvp free dungeon. When some people are 'in' the instanced content others might be blocked from spawning a new instance. Instancing is not by definition a spigot of infinite loot output any more then the open dungeons already are.
I do not expect to see a single example of a classic WoW instanced dungeon in which you can walk up to the quest giver hit a button and be teleported to a whole private dungeon experience and then pop back into the world at the quest giver for the reward. If an instanced starting room exists then it will exits you into a public section that you then need to run through to get a reward and exit. Alternativly you might fight through a dungeon with a large group but the final 'boss' fight requires that you split into groups of 4 each of which must fight the boss alone and then exit, in such a senario parrelel instancing is used to prevent unreasonable waiting.
The goal is clearly to have 'gates' in the course of the PvE content which add group size variety to the expereince, so every bit of content is not plowed through in 40 man groups, because while thouse groups are a fun experience they should not be only experience, which WOULD be the optimized case (for safety and speed) if openworld dungeosn were just open to any groupsize. Instancing is a tool used in WoW for privitazation, removal of PvP threat and mass parrellizing players through the themepark 'rides', but it is not the ONLY way that tool can be used.
He dose not say "20% of Dungeons are instanced" he says "20% of CONTENT is instanced".
What he's described might better be called "locked room" stages in dungeons. Aka your party goes into some space that becomes cut off from the rest of the world for a time as you do a boss fight or face some other PvE challenge under a strict group size cap, which will either TPK you or that you finish and exit from. It has always been expressed as a sub-section of a larger challenge with the threat of PvP before and after.
It dose not implay an unlimited throughput capacity of players or a fully private pvp free dungeon. When some people are 'in' the instanced content others might be blocked from spawning a new instance. Instancing is not by definition a spigot of infinite loot output any more then the open dungeons already are.
I do not expect to see a single example of a classic WoW instanced dungeon in which you can walk up to the quest giver hit a button and be teleported to a whole private dungeon experience and then pop back into the world at the quest giver for the reward. If an instanced starting room exists then it will exits you into a public section that you then need to run through to get a reward and exit. Alternativly you might fight through a dungeon with a large group but the final 'boss' fight requires that you split into groups of 4 each of which must fight the boss alone and then exit, in such a senario parrelel instancing is used to prevent unreasonable waiting.
The goal is clearly to have 'gates' in the course of the PvE content which add group size variety to the expereince, so every bit of content is not plowed through in 40 man groups, because while thouse groups are a fun experience they should not be only experience, which WOULD be the optimized case (for safety and speed) if openworld dungeosn were just open to any groupsize. Instancing is a tool used in WoW for privitazation, removal of PvP threat and mass parrellizing players through the themepark 'rides', but it is not the ONLY way that tool can be used.
Lodrig
3
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
The moment you introduce power gains from PvE instancing, it sets off a chain reaction that inevitably leads to similar PvP instancing with rewards.
This seems to be a foundational assumption of your post here - and it is demonstrably untrue.
Sure, some games by some developers listen to some bitching players.
However, all it takes from a developer when players complain that instanced PvE content has progression based rewards and instanced PvP doesn't, is for that developer to state outright that PvP players can - and historically do - cheese any form of instanced PvP content in order to maximize rewards.
Since these players simply can not be trusted (again, historical precedent), Intrepid simply can not in good faith add progression based instanced PvP be a thing in Ashes.
The moment Intrepid take this position, any potential notion of instanced PvP offering progression based rewards dies a well deserved death.
To then take the rest of y our points one by one;
1, having some instanced content does not detract at all from the open world aspect of the game. If you truely believed this, it wouldn't matter to you if that instanced content had rewards or not, as it simply existing would have this effect, if this effect was to ever happen.
2, see my initial point.
3, the games you listed are all PvE first games - of course the end game focuses on PvE.
The open world in WoW, as an example, was never supposed to matter. Blizzard do not consider travel to be content, they want people doing the parts of the game they enjoy most, and in an MMORPG the part people enjoy most (at least, the part 75% of all MMORPG players) is running PvE dungeons. This is *the* reason why WoW is still so popular after almost 20 years. The reason the open wprld and PvP in WoW feel like an afterthought is because they are essentially an afterthought.
4, PvE does not exist at all in an open world if PvP also exists. In every case where PvE and PvP supposedly so-exist, PvP is the only thing that matters. Thus, it is simply not possible for the best PvE in Ashes to be open world - there can be no good PvE in the open world at all.
Yes it should be carefully balanced. However, your notion of no progression based rewards is not careful balance, it is an absence of balance.To preserve the integrity and appeal of Ashes of Creation, instanced content should be carefully balanced.
I have no idea at all why you think the existence of some instanced content would mean the open world matters less. As a general notion, it just doesn't make sense.
Noaani
6
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
TLDR - Firebrand fight was good but not glorious.
Fire breath animation looks awesome! A bit too good though, because other fire animations didn't look as good and when you put them side by side you really see the difference.
Some people above mentioned poor visibility because of dust and sun - I think it looked fine, you could still see the target, you don't always have to have a perfect picture and distinguish every pixel change as in FPS games.
The graphics looked very nice and detailed.
I'd agree with the rest that fire NPCs don't match the environment.
NPCs aren't challenging. They dealt high damage on crit - yes, but unlike in Bard(I think) stream where they were draining hp and you had to interrupt that plus groups are tightly packed due to being in a building - that was challenging.
But if you hadn't mentioned that they are supposed to be challenging, I wouldn't think twice about it. In other words - these mobs were routine for a group of 8. Of course, mobs are just there for you to lvl up.
If you want every (group) of mobs to be challenging - that would be great but that would mean you need to select combos for every group of mobs so that players have to adapt for every encounter - would be cool but I don't think anyone actually expects that.
IMO:
Why not epic?
I think this is because we've seen all of these attack (skills) mechanics before. But maybe because it didn't feel epic. If I heard correctly then this is supposed to be lvl50 boss or doesn't matter, this is a top lvl boss for now. I'd expect it to bring a fiery hell upon attackers, smash and burn everything and since you let it summon aids - elementals - make them do something, they are not trees.
Part of not feeling an 'epic' fight is due to a lack of immersion. Perhaps this is because the dragon isn't in its intended location, but you could, for example, have it change the environment—making it dark, summoning a storm of fire, or leaving a permanent (or long-lasting) trail of flames to make positioning more challenging.
Conclusion:
I think you did a great job of sifting through all the MMOs out there, taking the best parts from them, and then adding a lot of great new mechanics of your own. But boss fight is still just a little more advanced than 10-15 years ago. Sure, that's how it is now in all other MMOs (hold the chains then do the damage or kill spawns otherwise boss will get buffs).
But are you the same as others or are you making something glorious?
You need to make one solid step forward and turn the boss fight from a "when" we kill him how we share the loot to "if" we kill him kind of situation.
Consider this example:
Or maybe a simplistic version - boss summoned a few servants, they try to get to the point(portal), if they reach it then after 5 mins you will get a small group of defenders, if defenders survive then they cast a spell dealing damage now and causing next event and so on. It could be not as linear as this but I can't come up with a good example right now.
Overall, everything looks good, but you've set very high standards for yourself, and I'm judging your game based on the level you set yourself.
Couldn't come up with a funny joke but I'll still post this:
Fire breath animation looks awesome! A bit too good though, because other fire animations didn't look as good and when you put them side by side you really see the difference.
Some people above mentioned poor visibility because of dust and sun - I think it looked fine, you could still see the target, you don't always have to have a perfect picture and distinguish every pixel change as in FPS games.
The graphics looked very nice and detailed.
I'd agree with the rest that fire NPCs don't match the environment.
NPCs aren't challenging. They dealt high damage on crit - yes, but unlike in Bard(I think) stream where they were draining hp and you had to interrupt that plus groups are tightly packed due to being in a building - that was challenging.
But if you hadn't mentioned that they are supposed to be challenging, I wouldn't think twice about it. In other words - these mobs were routine for a group of 8. Of course, mobs are just there for you to lvl up.
If you want every (group) of mobs to be challenging - that would be great but that would mean you need to select combos for every group of mobs so that players have to adapt for every encounter - would be cool but I don't think anyone actually expects that.
IMO:
- Did it do big damage? Yes.
- Did it try to deal more damage based on players' position? Yes.
- Was it hard? Yes.
- Was it epic? No.
Why not epic?
I think this is because we've seen all of these attack (skills) mechanics before. But maybe because it didn't feel epic. If I heard correctly then this is supposed to be lvl50 boss or doesn't matter, this is a top lvl boss for now. I'd expect it to bring a fiery hell upon attackers, smash and burn everything and since you let it summon aids - elementals - make them do something, they are not trees.
Part of not feeling an 'epic' fight is due to a lack of immersion. Perhaps this is because the dragon isn't in its intended location, but you could, for example, have it change the environment—making it dark, summoning a storm of fire, or leaving a permanent (or long-lasting) trail of flames to make positioning more challenging.
Conclusion:
I think you did a great job of sifting through all the MMOs out there, taking the best parts from them, and then adding a lot of great new mechanics of your own. But boss fight is still just a little more advanced than 10-15 years ago. Sure, that's how it is now in all other MMOs (hold the chains then do the damage or kill spawns otherwise boss will get buffs).
But are you the same as others or are you making something glorious?
You need to make one solid step forward and turn the boss fight from a "when" we kill him how we share the loot to "if" we kill him kind of situation.
Consider this example:
- Would you remember a boss fight where the boss dealt a lot of damage, requiring you to move away to avoid getting hurt, then continuing to deal damage?
- Or would you remember a boss fight where the entire raid team had to work together as one to succeed—a fight where you're hopeful of winning but not certain, knowing that 1-2 mistakes could lead to a cascade effect and eventually cause a defeat?
Or maybe a simplistic version - boss summoned a few servants, they try to get to the point(portal), if they reach it then after 5 mins you will get a small group of defenders, if defenders survive then they cast a spell dealing damage now and causing next event and so on. It could be not as linear as this but I can't come up with a good example right now.
Overall, everything looks good, but you've set very high standards for yourself, and I'm judging your game based on the level you set yourself.
Couldn't come up with a funny joke but I'll still post this:
Re: Please NO Blackpowder Weapons
In the August Update Stream i think i heard you plan to implement Canons as Weapons for Ships. I beg you to reconsider! AoC is clearly set in a fantasy Universe that is on a Technological Level comparable to early to high medieval Development in our World. Canons as Blackpowder Weapons would be a Anachronism in such a world. If Technology is advanced enough to build and operate Canons here should also be other forms of Blackpowder Weapons that have ben created along them. Pistols, Rifles, Hand Canons. In our world here were plenty of Sea Battles in the about 5000 Years before Canons where a thing. So pretty please keep Canons out of the game. Catapults, Ballistas and Bows can be just as much fun!
I remember hearing in one of the recent streams that cannons will be powered by potions as projectile propulsion and I love this idea. You load a potion and it fires a cannonball leaving various color trace so that opponent can spot what you firing at them.
And I agree, in such game all pistols, rifles etc. won't look good at all. You can even spot a relation between demise of an MMORPG and introduction of internal combustion mounts for example.
Re: Vassal resentment
If there was a chance where mechanically vasals are better - I do think I'd give in and accept the life in a vassal node. But that will never happen, cause why in the hell would anyone who doesn't care about their node all that much choose to live at a Metro. And if the metro doesn't have enough people - it dies, which then changes vassals, which then removes the benefits, which then cascades to the point of the entire landscape changing completely.Is there any point where you would be happy being the vassal? Or does the pride aspect mean more than anything else?
Though, now that I write all of that out - I want that the current design definitely seems like something that's gonna be quite static (with all the siege lockouts and stuff), but vassals having more benefits would bring more interest to the politics and player movement.
Less living space creates higher prices, which funnels stronger players to it, which can then result in higher amounts of wars, cause those stronger players would be more likely to have strong enemies.
And as I've said before, I dislike this design.Nodes do not belong to players.
Vassal nodes should not rebel against parent nodes. It is a game mechanic. You are just a pawn on the map who happens to be in that node.
The game design is better as it is now.
Castle can be retaken, mobs/bosses/locations can be fought over, guilds/nodes can be wardecced, caravans attacked - all support a "loser" (as Noaani puts it) having the ability to try and stand up against someone who won against them in the past. But for some reason nodes do not support that.
History is full of people rising up against "The Man" for one reason or the other. And quite a lot of those reasons are very politically motivated, with external influences included. So why shouldn't Ashes have the same kind of scheming and interactions?
Also, I 100% foresee metros being run by despots and tyrants, but none of the vassals being able to do anything about that, because they can't rise up, so their choice is either "go live somewhere else" (while it's unknown if you even can move w/o downshifting) or "suck it up".
Re: Hearthstones and Pistols: Discussion
Would you settle for a Cross-Bow Pirate? Personally i do not like guns in my medieval fantasy mmos ALSO Pirates did exist before gunpowder weapons. :P
Naibres
1
Re: [EU] Nephilim [PVX] [18+] [Semi Hardcore] [Competitive] [Close Knit Community]
I was going to start this post by saying we are a small group of players but tbh it's been 2years since i joined, we kinda grew alot, we still maintain the mature part though, haha.
●All ages are welcomed aslong as you can see the line of respecting eachother.
●We all want to push all content the game has to offer
●We will never be passive or casual, keep that in mind, we want to build a competitive enviroment between us and the world, we expect our players and members to share that passion of take it all give nothing back.
●Overall asmuch as i can pile on, this is a friendly place, with alot of likeminded gamers who want to enjoy it as a guild, this was a little to formal but i think it should be enough for an idea of what we are all about, join our server if you're striken with curiousity, at the very least you can make friends for when the game comes out.
The name's Bu, remember that peasannnnnts! \o/
●All ages are welcomed aslong as you can see the line of respecting eachother.
●We all want to push all content the game has to offer
●We will never be passive or casual, keep that in mind, we want to build a competitive enviroment between us and the world, we expect our players and members to share that passion of take it all give nothing back.
●Overall asmuch as i can pile on, this is a friendly place, with alot of likeminded gamers who want to enjoy it as a guild, this was a little to formal but i think it should be enough for an idea of what we are all about, join our server if you're striken with curiousity, at the very least you can make friends for when the game comes out.
The name's Bu, remember that peasannnnnts! \o/
Neph_BU
2