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Re: Loot System Changes
George_Black wrote: »No. It goes against the philosophy of competitiveness. I dont know how you cant see that.
What's more rare, something that drops once at a time or something that drops x20 at a time?
What would create more contest? What would make for a healthier economy?
I personally don’t see how rewarding players for engaging in difficult content together as a group goes against competition unless you enjoy competing against the same people you are helping. Disagreements over how loot is handled within groups and guilds is ultimately what leads to players leaving in the middle of content and guilds dissolving.
Smaashley also mentioned there being percent chance drop tables which is common in current gen gaming across the board. I would personally stay more engaged knowing there’s a 3% chance of getting a rare drop while mostly getting 80-90% drop green or blue crafting materials.
This system creates a perfectly healthy economy because rare is still rare but instead of alienating half of the community due to their greed or ignorance, you can make friends!
Contest in my opinion should be PvP or leaderboard based, not from within your own group or guild. I find it much more rewarding completing content with friends then using our new gear against enemies or competing with a guild to get the best score in a raid.
Kleptix
3
Re: Loot System Changes
George_Black wrote: »George_Black wrote: »
I'm saying that because with the system they have right now, there are people that would kill that boss 50 times and get no reward for it. Maybe you conflicted with other players for 30 minutes and then succeed to kill the boss once and don't get any loot. That is trophy because you took risk and succeeded. This is risk vs. reward, no matter the loot system.
Okay... not gonna happen, what else can I tell you?
Dude I'm here to give feedback based on my opinion. Intrepid does whatever they think it's best for their game and considering they have changed a lot of things based of players' feedback, they can change that as well.
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Imo instanced content should give power gains depending on what you have at that time.
Its totally fine when you can obtain decent gear from instanced content, be it PvE or PvP, it just shouldnt be the best gear you can obtain and it should take some grinding to get it. Grinding that takes a considerable amount of time or luck.
I believe that this is actually needed especially as a "catchup mechanic" when newer players cant farm certain items to craft their gear or dont have access to worldbosses because of political/tyrannical structures on their server.
Sure, you can always argue that you just need to farm gold to buy the item from a crafter, but that is pretty dull for alot of people.
No.
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Disagree.
Instanced content should also give you meaningful rewards, including gear or materials that are necessary for crafting that gear.
I know your point was specifically against power gains, and not meaningful rewards in general.
In my opinion, instanced content should still provide some level of gear that won't make you useless. It doesn't have to be on the same level as the gear you get from open-world content, or crafted gear.
It could be your starting "endgame" set of gear, which you will replace in a few weeks with better gear you get from open world, or just the materials required for crafting some specific lower level gear (that maybe has no upgrade paths toward something better).
Your 2nd and 3rd points just don't make any sense. Third point especially, because those games are just not like what Ashes is aiming to be, because those games are heavily focused on instanced content, while Ashes will not be, even if it's 20% of all content in game. Open-world in Ashes will not be less meaningful, because all the events are going to happen there, from world bosses, to dungeons, caravans, naval content, OW events in general, etc.
Just because 20% of content is going to be instanced, doesn't mean all of that instanced content will provide power gains.
Just like in most instances, I'd just point out a certain game that a certain important person here has played.
Archeage.
Archeage had instanced dungeons, and they were somewhat of an important part of the game, whether that's for early end-game sets of gear, later for farming mats for gear upgrades, with library especially, or some unique weapons / pieces of gear that certain classes might want to go for.
I have never felt it took away anything from the open-world. It actually added something else to do, something different, which was just as fun.
So in my opinion, more content, and more different content is always welcome. I just do not see it being such a big deal as you are making it out to be, and if anything it can actually help the game attract more people, and give people more content to enjoy the game for longer, so they get bored of doing the same thing every day.
You need to make it worthwhile to do the instanced content though, because if the rewards are not there, or if they are not deemed important by players, then simply players won't do that content.
I think bragging rights and cosmetics are plenty meaningful when the end-game of MMORPGs is fashion, it becomes a cornerstone even. Without putting in any player power within said systems, those rewards are meaningful. Even then - it will still remove people from the open world.
Once you start adding in places where the instanced crowd can hide, they will hide. However if the power isn't in the instancing, they will hide less.
My second point is going to be what will happen when you start handing out power in PvE instancing, then the PvP crowd will demand power in their instancing and visa versa. I am against power in all instancing.
Once you put those things in the game, players who only partake in that content will demand more of it, they will demand balance be based off of it, it'll start an entire messy domino effect that is completely unnecessary.
Yes, instanced content pulls people out of the world. Which is why it precedes my second point. Instanced content should never provide power gains.
There have been over 200 MMORPG titled, there never has been a shortage of instanced content.
You know what there's been a shortage of? OW PvX MMORPG, we haven't seen a good one in years.
Solvryn
1
Re: Loot System Changes
the only reason ffxiv can do this is cause the games loot system and gear progression is so streamlined that they completely removed any diversity in builds and leave you with the same kit and gear set everyone else at your tier has.
FFXIV has a lot of really nice quality of life things about it but if ashes is gonna be so community driven and is essentially a throwback to classic MMOs I don't see how restricting people is going to help the game in this matter. People just need to make sure to record and screenshot this when it happens, call them out and let other people know.
I prefer shaming people over having devs place restrictions in a game. If you can't take the time to deal with these issues yourself why should the dev team. this is a social issue not a gameplay issue
It's not that the devs should have to deal with every player disagreement. However, the setup they currently have with group-loot only, all the power in the group lead's hands, and the ability to ninja-kick participating group members directly empowers bad actors and the sort of anti-social behavior that's going to discourage cooperation.
Why would I ever join a group to assist when there's (going purely by the preview we just saw) a 90% chance I walk away with absolutely nothing to show for it.
I could also turn your point and ask why there's an option of Lootmaster or Need/Greed when people could just arrange those thing organically after everyone has drawn their loot? After all, it's not the devs job to enforce players to contribute to the group funds. Why is intrepid artificially enforcing charity work as the default for 1/2/etc hours of gameplay commitment?
Caeryl
2
Re: Loot System Changes
the only reason ffxiv can do this is cause the games loot system and gear progression is so streamlined that they completely removed any diversity in builds and leave you with the same kit and gear set everyone else at your tier has.
FFXIV has a lot of really nice quality of life things about it but if ashes is gonna be so community driven and is essentially a throwback to classic MMOs I don't see how restricting people is going to help the game in this matter. People just need to make sure to record and screenshot this when it happens, call them out and let other people know.
I prefer shaming people over having devs place restrictions in a game. If you can't take the time to deal with these issues yourself why should the dev team. this is a social issue not a gameplay issue
I agree the gear progression system is completely different but taking good concepts from other games and implementing them in ways that fit your model is typically good and appreciated. Smaashley also mentioned that someone could kill the same boss 50 times and never get loot - just reading that makes me want to quit before I even start.
Unfortunately, the shaming method just doesn’t work in this day and age. There are EQ2 discords dedicated to shaming these people and they still get away with it because majority of gamers don’t look for or engage with drama.
In my opinion, there is no other way to deal with these issues other than developers making sure their systems are inherently fair and rewarding. There is no recourse for ninja looting other than being pissed off. I could kill that player 100 times in pvp and still not get the item or satisfaction. How many times will you be ninja looted in a day then run to post it on a forum before you log off?
Kleptix
1
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Correct me if I am wrong but there is not only power gain from instanced PvE (which to my understanding is done for more carefully orchestrated story events) but also for PvP already in the form of Castle and Node Sieges. Pillaging a Node or becoming King of the Castle and its 3 Castle Nodes plus loot sounds like quite the power gain to me, just not exclusively in combat power, right?
So having such specific events occur in instances might be due to: Simply not being possible in an open world (in a technical or an organisational way) or in case of a node siege because that would just ruin the idea of node siege in general with infinite players being able to join randomly... and primarily on the attacking side skewing the balance heavily in one direction disincentivizing defenders to show up.
He's confirmed there will be power rewards in discord. Recently.
The quote was pointing out that most power comes from PvP systems, which is true. There’s nothing wrong with all content types providing rewards.
Keep the power in the open world where both pvp and pve occur simultaneously (PvX)
The vast majority of all types of power gain is in the open world. I'm still not understanding how you've come to the conclusion that 20% of all content being instanced would in any way tip the balance negatively when open world content is by and large the most important sort of power available in the game.
Some bits of gear and gold don't mean anything in the face of controlling a Castle or a Metro node
Avalanches start off as a single flake of snow. I don't want any power from PvE or PvP instancing. If I had my actual way, there would be no instancing at all.
Mostly because I prefer to preserve the integrity of the game instead of giving people an in to start demanding more instanced content.
The appeal of Ashes is that it's going to be seamless, open world with inherent risk. I am against anything that mars that integrity in the slightest. I prefer not to have instancing, but since it will be in the game, rewarding bragging rights and vanity seem like an apt reward; but keeping the power out of it.
Solvryn
1
Re: Loot System Changes
George_Black wrote: »
I'm saying that because with the system they have right now, there are people that would kill that boss 50 times and get no reward for it. Maybe you conflicted with other players for 30 minutes and then succeed to kill the boss once and don't get any loot. That is trophy because you took risk and succeeded. This is risk vs. reward, no matter the loot system.
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Yea this whole thread looks like its motivated by PvP elitists who demand that thouse filthy PvE's not get any gear that could possibly threaten their betters with.
I mean, other MMOs don't have any way to get BiS gear in the open-world, is it wrong to want one MMO where you need to actually participate in the "Massively" part of it to get good gear?
How do you get BiS in WoW through the open-world, or FF14?
Talents
2