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Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
I know this has been discussed before, but we have some new info. Steven's answer to the secondary archetypes gave us a better idea of where they may go with secondary archetypes. I was curious what people thought about his answer and what they want to see.
He responded there are various ideas in the table. Secondary archetypes may effect damage values, cooldowns, mana cost, range of abilities, ect. Furthermore, they may effect the visual graphics of spells.
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with changing visual effects. This would only increase the unique customization of the character. However, damage values, cooldowns, and otherwise makes me fear the inevitability of a meta class. I would hate to see every single PvP player running tank or cleric secondary because of their common PvP benefits. That limits builds and "forces" us to commit to a build we don't enjoy to be the most effective.
You have a lot options to choose from. For example instead Tank secondary, you may go for Plate armor. Or shield as weapon, and put points on active blocking skills. Race may affect this as well. And also there are augments from the religion. With so many variables to choose from, There will be for sure Youtube videos about a "meta". BUT if this is the optimal build is another question.
Not to mention the optimal build for small scale PVP is different from Large scale PVP is different from Dungeons/Raids and ect. And when the game is PVX you cant just take X build for raid, since you may encounter PVP
Githal
1
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
Hutchy1989 wrote: »Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.
meta in games like dota , LOL , valorant , overwatch , these type of games is fine , but meta in a game where you spend months investing in a class then literally go to sleep , wake up , read the patch notes , find out that ur class nerfed and other class outshines u and u are not needed in competitive pvp because u are replaced by other more needed roles , that is just horrible experience , it leads to two outcomes , people taking break quitting , or ppl grinding new class , both outcomes happen , in game design if u are not able to balance 64 classes then literally don't do it , u are just wasting resources
Which is why there are so many adjustment systems planned, so we as player can adapt without having to wait for a patch.
That being said, I think (and this is me SPECULATING) it is worth considering that we might have to consider secondary archetypes as a temporary decision for ourselves. Much like gear, if the environment changes (e.g. a certain archetype being played a lot on a certain server/ in a specific region; a certain type of resource being unavailable or available in abundance; a certain type of mob spreading) what is "best in slot" might change in regards to classes.
We don't know if certain world events doesn't include temporarily buffing a certain type of ability. For example having a special relic in your divine Node could increase holy damage or increase the overall healing received in that Node's ZOI (Zone of Influence) which would empower orimary and secondary cleric archetypes in the first case or buff healers but make classes that can reduce healing more important - thats something we just do not know yet but could provide ingame incentives to change your secondary Archetype from time to time based on ingame changes without external influence.
Kilion
2
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
Hutchy1989 wrote: »Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.
meta in games like dota , LOL , valorant , overwatch , these type of games is fine , but meta in a game where you spend months investing in a class then literally go to sleep , wake up , read the patch notes , find out that ur class nerfed and other class outshines u and u are not needed in competitive pvp because u are replaced by other more needed roles , that is just horrible experience , it leads to two outcomes , people taking break quitting , or ppl grinding new class , both outcomes happen , in game design if u are not able to balance 64 classes then literally don't do it , u are just wasting resources
Meta could mean all classes are good (or bad) or what ever. This is why there is always a "meta". And unless everything will be the same, some classes / combo will be better for certain fights. If my class does not have any AOE damage then any AOE fight i am less optimal.
abc0815
1
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
Active Skills are more powerful than Augments.
Which is why the term Primary Archetype is used. Primarily a Cleric.
A Cleric/Rogue cannot replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue in an 8-person Group.
Even if a Shadow Disciple could get full Stealth from an Augment, it wouldn't last as long as the Active Skill.
True a Cleric can never be a replacement for a base class rogue. Much like a Rogure \ Cleric could never play group healer. But secondary archetypes can also change a skill to something else. Steven said as much. I could see Cleric \ Rogure even getting stealth of some type. Maybe even some damage improvements. And a Rogue \ Cleric could also do some backup heals in some way. And to his point a Cleric \ Rogue could spec deep enough that their heal spells could suffer being a main healer but could be a fun class to run with some rangers and rogues in some stealth missions.
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
I think the secondary archtypes should be pretty simple. You have so many talent points to allocate per character in the talent tree, say 64 points. If you have a secondary you put points in the secondary class instead of the primary, but not more then your primary class.
So a cleric/rogue could be 60 cleric/4 rogue, or 32cleric/32rogue.
Will be in testing how secondary class will change how skills work and what skills can be changed to do something different. How rogue can a Cleric become? Because you will still base class a Cleric but can that class get full stealth like a Rogue? Can't wait for the augment update. Summer of 2025 can't come soon enough.
Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
Interesting.
I think in a modern large scale MMO, AoE attacks should be telegraphed in PvP, and in PvE. Imagine being in a large scale 100v100 fight. It will go one of two ways.
1. Players are incredibly frustrated because they are randomly being damaged and can't really comprehend what is happening due to the large amount of effects and players. Sure, they can make out some longer, more defined AoE attacks sometimes to avoid, but otherwise it is difficult for them.
2. Players are frustrated because enemy AoE attacks are telegraphed, and the entire battlefield floor is a some shade of flashing red because there are so many AoE attacks being used.
How do you balance this? I don't think it will be possible to please everyone, and I don't think it will be super possible to make it a very accessible user experience on either end of the spectrum.
An example of what I personally like is GW2, there are red shaded floor spots of Aoe attacks, and even an indicator of WHEN the damage will be done for certain attacks. This is really nice in PvE encounters, and also appreciated in PvP.
However, it can be more interesting than just red circles everywhere. AoE abilities can be telegraphed intuitively based on their effects. Like what if you are casting a meteor shower over 2s, the floor could start cracking, or the meteors could appear in the sky before actually falling to the ground and doing damage. This would be more interesting, and leave it to players to learn over time what AoE abilities look like before they actively affect you. Instant AoE's are harder to telegraph warnings about, but as they happen it can be tastefully done effects to make it obvious where it is hitting, or a well defined red polygon that shows the accurate area of effect.
Either way, I'm sure there is a sweet spot somewhere about this.
I love the idea of having effects tell you where something will hit versus red telegraphed way more for immersion instead of seeing red everywhere.
Tufguy
1
Re: The best implementation of AoE
Haven't seen you on the Forums before, so I'll just go ahead and say: Welcome!
Who is "We"?
Who are you working for?! O_O
No. I'm not playing dance dance revolution where the sky lights up and I have to hop into the right area.
In an MMORPGs where people use their brains instead of putting the game on a second screen while listening to Crypto Bro 420 playing ASMR Minecraft, sometime there are subtle indicators on the ground to avoid an AOE ability, sometimes there are none because the movement of the enemy gives away whats about to hit or in PvP I should have reserved some saving (shield/movement) ability to escape a sudden AoE spell.
Players who want training wheels in a game that promotes itself as "challenging", might just want to stick with FF or WoW where even high end raid bosses have indicators for EVERYTHING that the boss is about to do.
The Blizzard-Spell of the mage and the Whirlwind of the Fighter are great examples for how a good AoE spell should look IMO. There are some "natural" indicators that mark the area of effect and those suffice.
No. Just like like you need to learn the skills of your enemies, you need to learn the skills of your parties. And with them its even easier, you can just plan ahead or talk during the fight to do group combos. There is no need for more help for your allies.
They get the same indicators that the allies get, they don't get acces the communication and information about which combos are being pulled off.
No.
Ashes of Creation Livestreams look pretty neat, the most recent livestream looked great, the open world PvP from the Node Wars livestream looked a bit chaotic but overall fine, what I liked is that there was no special treatment for anyone, skills were treated exactly like that: Skills.
There is no need for different treatment of when an enemy or ally uses a skill, battleground awareness includes recognizing who is firing what and putting training wheels on that process every time something is slightly different is counter productive to the goal of challenging the players.
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
Who is "We"?
Who are you working for?! O_O
AoE abilities are a core concept of mmos and need to be displayed very clearly for solo and group PvE situations very clear undercurrent translucent markings should be displayed brightly for those of your party and self in your party. With settings to minimize it to only self. It’s important to create a sense of timing and understanding of technical spacing on skills this way and will show through high saturation of multiple abilities for a sense of structure.
No. I'm not playing dance dance revolution where the sky lights up and I have to hop into the right area.
In an MMORPGs where people use their brains instead of putting the game on a second screen while listening to Crypto Bro 420 playing ASMR Minecraft, sometime there are subtle indicators on the ground to avoid an AOE ability, sometimes there are none because the movement of the enemy gives away whats about to hit or in PvP I should have reserved some saving (shield/movement) ability to escape a sudden AoE spell.
Players who want training wheels in a game that promotes itself as "challenging", might just want to stick with FF or WoW where even high end raid bosses have indicators for EVERYTHING that the boss is about to do.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies
The Blizzard-Spell of the mage and the Whirlwind of the Fighter are great examples for how a good AoE spell should look IMO. There are some "natural" indicators that mark the area of effect and those suffice.
Friendly players should always be able to clearly see what you’re doing to help group play and even as a tool to help teach those in your party if you see them doing something sub-par with a skill, or where best for them to place a certain aoe, so very for friendly grouped players.
No. Just like like you need to learn the skills of your enemies, you need to learn the skills of your parties. And with them its even easier, you can just plan ahead or talk during the fight to do group combos. There is no need for more help for your allies.
Enemy players again shouldn’t have many or any telegraphs to grow skill ceiling and allow players to have a reason to learn all the abilities natural setups from playing with them or through alts to learn what players might do in PvP without the telegraph help.
They get the same indicators that the allies get, they don't get acces the communication and information about which combos are being pulled off.
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Ashes of Creation Livestreams look pretty neat, the most recent livestream looked great, the open world PvP from the Node Wars livestream looked a bit chaotic but overall fine, what I liked is that there was no special treatment for anyone, skills were treated exactly like that: Skills.
There is no need for different treatment of when an enemy or ally uses a skill, battleground awareness includes recognizing who is firing what and putting training wheels on that process every time something is slightly different is counter productive to the goal of challenging the players.
Kilion
1
Re: The best implementation of AoE
AoE abilities are indeed central to MMO gameplay, and how they’re displayed can significantly impact both PvE and PvP experiences. I think the approach to AoE telegraphing should strike a balance between clarity for teammates and challenge for opponents.
For PvE, clear visual cues for AoE abilities are essential, especially in group settings. Being able to see where an ability will land allows players to coordinate effectively and avoid unnecessary damage. However, in PvP, reducing the visibility of enemy AoE markers can raise the skill ceiling, rewarding players who take the time to learn ability animations and timings. This approach enhances the tactical depth of encounters, making them more engaging and rewarding for skilled players.
Drawing from Guild Wars 2, their use of elemental combos within AoE fields is a great example of how clear and interactive AoE mechanics can add depth to combat. For instance, when a player lays down a fire field, another player can trigger it with a blast finisher to create powerful effects like Might. This system not only encourages teamwork but also adds layers of strategy that could greatly benefit Ashes of Creation.
Incorporating a similar system in Ashes of Creation would allow for both complexity and clarity in combat, enhancing both PvE coordination and PvP strategy. Balancing these aspects is crucial to ensure the game remains challenging and rewarding across all types of gameplay.
For PvE, clear visual cues for AoE abilities are essential, especially in group settings. Being able to see where an ability will land allows players to coordinate effectively and avoid unnecessary damage. However, in PvP, reducing the visibility of enemy AoE markers can raise the skill ceiling, rewarding players who take the time to learn ability animations and timings. This approach enhances the tactical depth of encounters, making them more engaging and rewarding for skilled players.
Drawing from Guild Wars 2, their use of elemental combos within AoE fields is a great example of how clear and interactive AoE mechanics can add depth to combat. For instance, when a player lays down a fire field, another player can trigger it with a blast finisher to create powerful effects like Might. This system not only encourages teamwork but also adds layers of strategy that could greatly benefit Ashes of Creation.
Incorporating a similar system in Ashes of Creation would allow for both complexity and clarity in combat, enhancing both PvE coordination and PvP strategy. Balancing these aspects is crucial to ensure the game remains challenging and rewarding across all types of gameplay.
ReLamas
1
Re: Loot System Changes
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Depraved
1
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
Taleof2Cities wrote: »This is a paper rock scissor combat system. If you are metta at something. It means your a really top end rock let's say. Meaning your counter is out there and you will be spanked. Look out for that paper, your end is near.
There are many sure things about Ashes of Creation that we can take Steven's word on, nanfoodle.
Unfortunately, combat balance is one of the few topics we'll have to take a wait and see approach.
Remember the Combat Team is tasked with balancing a game with 8 archetypes, 8 secondaries, weapon skills, gear, religious affiliations, and so on ... and across many different content types (sieges, instanced raids, ocean combat, caravans, overland PvPvE, etc.)
I support the rock, paper, scissors combat design in Ashes. It's one of the reasons I'm here. But, it's not as easy as a simple re-quote from the devs.
But it is easier to balance. Rock play style has to much of an advantage boost paper or new paper options. Of course you can make you rock build and augment with religion and other options to balance your class a little to make you almost balance between rock, paper and scissors but then you will not have a character that can shine is one area.
Sure like any game, there will be meta but gamers can change their deck to counter that build. I'm sure IS will need practical experience at balancing this but it's much more manageable.
Really comes down to how creative IS staff can be.