Best Of
Re: Ashes of Creation must dodge this bullet
My personal opinion I think this is nothing more than click bait for his video or he is big WoW carebare and doesn't comprehend what an actual pvx mmo is all about but considering his articulated responses I would lean heavily toward the former!
Lmao, yeah, obviously, I spent time writing the main post and reply to long comments to get those 5 extra views. For that statement alone you deserve a PhD in logic.
Secondly, I never ever touched WoW or had it installed on my PC.
Finally, I've played Lineage for 12+ years which is a PvX game with open world PvP.
Literally nothing you wrote even remotely makes any sense or has anything in common with objective reality.
Mic drop
Flanker
3
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
bloodprophet wrote: »I'll bet you guys roll up half a dozen characters and run solo PnP games all by yourself.
Nothing more exciting then playing a game designed as multiplayer alllllllllll by your lil lonesome. And then whining cause you Your scared of the keyboard.
Oh wait no, looking for page 10 on why MMO'S should not exist and everything should be solo player.
Yes because that is what anyone has said at this point.
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
bloodprophet wrote: »AirborneBerserker wrote: »bloodprophet wrote: »Page nine and the answer still seems so obvious.
Find others to play with.
Be sure to tell that to the people that join 6 months after launch.
I won't have to.
As you said new players coming in will have new players coming in to play with.....plus the added benefit of all the other players already there to play with.
So the level 10 players are supposed to group with level 50 players? Good plan.
Re: Loot System Changes
Me,me,me,me,me,me......
That's all this thread is?
A rising tide lifts all ships.
When people on the TEAM become stronger the whole team becomes stronger. Is amazing how self centered some of you are.
Someone on my team got something and I didn't Whaaaaaa!!
Learn to celebrate your friends and team mates victories. Get it next time or maybe the time after.
This is supposed to be a multiplayer game not another single player game pretending to be an MMO.
That's all this thread is?
A rising tide lifts all ships.
When people on the TEAM become stronger the whole team becomes stronger. Is amazing how self centered some of you are.
Someone on my team got something and I didn't Whaaaaaa!!
Learn to celebrate your friends and team mates victories. Get it next time or maybe the time after.
This is supposed to be a multiplayer game not another single player game pretending to be an MMO.
Re: Player enemy visual Health Bar update on hit.
There has been a great solution for this situation which is "Only HP bars of purple and red players are visible. HP bars of non-combatants are not, unless they flag".Well, as already stated: The root cause here is called "non-combatant" and "corruption". Missing HP bars that lower serious pvp playing due to just having no idea what's happening with the enemy is just a workaround that get's in discussion afterwards.
I played Lineage 2 that has the same PvP and corruption system and open-world PvP. And that's the game from which Ashes took this system. And I know exactly how this system works and how it can be exploited under these circumstances.If you ever would have played pvp like high rated Arena PvP in WoW or sPvP (same gear for everybody) in GW2 you perhaps would have an idea.
Ganking situation is the last thing I fear. In fact, it's not even in my personal interest to hide HP bars as I would be among those who directly benefits from that. Yet I would still prefer them removed, because the game's overall health is much more important for me than my personal preferences.You fear the ganking situation? If you are pvp-flagged, that's your decision. It's not the fault of somebody else. If you are forced to get into pvp and are forced to play pvp, that's a completely different story and even then, health bars are crucial because it just shouldnt "work fine" it should make sense and be serious. It's also a huge topic about being responsive, getting feedback from what you are doing. If there is no feedback, you just randomly do what you feel, you are not reacting precisely, you are not calling targets due to correct decision, but only because someone is calling a random target for a lucky kill try. It's funny, perhaps, but nothing more.
And if you think that PvP with no health bars turns into random chaos, mate, I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Flanker
2
Re: Ashes of Creation must dodge this bullet
Content creation for a game that does not yet exist being concerned about getting to max level to quickly. You can't make this up.
So you will not make a lvl Guide right? Not data mine every piece to hell and back?
"The Ultimate Guide to Ashes of Creation Alpha 2"
So you will not make a lvl Guide right? Not data mine every piece to hell and back?
"The Ultimate Guide to Ashes of Creation Alpha 2"
abc0815
2
Re: Ashes of Creation must dodge this bullet
1. The average player would reach level 50 within approximately ~2 months. It means the only future updates he will care about are those related to endgame. Therefore, Intrepid will be forced to prioritize endgame content to prevent those players from leaving; this will not stop and will only get worse over time.
Not sure if you forgot that, but there is no classic "endgame" in Ashes of Creation. A lot of the things you would do on Max Level, you can already start on lower levels. And even more: Things that mattered on lower levels don't just turn irrelevant just because you reached max level.
2. Those ~2 months might not even be relevant on release. Alpha 2 and Beta phases have no NDA. Therefore, there will be plenty of YouTube guides about leveling up fast.
This ignores that a guide needs a static environment to guide someone through. But lets say somehow someone made a guide to leveling - anyone who decides to copy actions from that is ruining the game for themselves and there is no need to cater to those people (i am deliberately not calling them "players" here).
3. Those ~2 months will be even less relevant post launch: nodes will be more developed, economy will function, market will have everything a player needs. Also, players will be able to get help from friends, guilds etc. They might also get powerleveled by their high-level friends even with current restrictions (for example, level 42 player can get carried in a group of lvl 50 players in high level zones)
No, markets will not have "everything players need", just like in the real world, things happen all the time that make something rare or abundant in a certain part of the world despite stuff being IN THEORY available.
Node development also doesn't mean this makes leveling easier, in fact node development could mean it gets more difficult because the areas would see more PvP happening preventing efficient, focused level grinding.
4. Official launch may be messy, so at first devs might need to focus on fixing bugs and other issues, instead of new content. Slower leveling would buy Intrepid more time.
That's what the extensive Alpha and Beta is for.
5 Slower progression extends the longevity of the game. Simple example: x1 Lineage 2 servers could stay active for years. Servers with x5, x10 or higher rates normally lasted several months at best, despite the fact that players were literally playing the same game. And yes, there were many casual players in Lineage 2 as well.
You might want to take a look at the content release policy as well as the way content in general will be structured in Ashes. You can't just reach max level, fly through all the high level dungeons and call it a day because "you have seen everything". There are going to be access limitations everywhere, established by through the node system as well as through players keeping you away.
6 Fast leveling leads to having more alts with different artisan skills. As a result, the whole idea of interdependent player relationships will slowly die. Especially, if we take into account, that artisan level does not really require adventuring level.
That assumes a trivial and extremely simple artisan cycle that you just fly through. Which I don't see being the case.
7 The faster the leveling is, the more low- and mid-level content players tend to skip. Taking into accounts #1, #2 and #3, the situation will only get worse over time.
I honestly don't know what you think level dependent content will be in this game.
8 As a result of #7, the low- and mid-level economy slowly but surely dies over time. New World is a perfect example. Seen the same in Lineage 2 as well.
Okay, now you lost me. Did you even research the artisan system before making your statement?
As for the rest of your post:
According to the DePaul Univerity:
Increasing the time to level also means increasing the wall that casual players with 11-20 hours per week or less have to climb. Assuming the stats above are accurate 53% of MMO player would already take around 11 weeks at best and around 5 months on average to reach level 50.
I wonder: You talked about motivation. How would an increase of reaching the max level motivate these playres?
I would highly recommend revisiting the information we have on the core systems of the game because IMO you have some very glaring flaws in your base assumptions that make many of your arguments weak if not entirely missing the mark.
Kilion
13
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
You clearly still don't understand. But that's ok.
You cannot play in groups 24/7, and in this game (by design and systems) you will lack meaningful, rewarding solo content and you are wasting your time due to getting no choice at which time you want to play solo content, because you can be attacked at every time from other groups and not only other solo players. It's the combination of both here. And just adding to an existing group running around that "accept" you (think about a caravan and you pass their way) will not happen, you show up, you are dead. It's only wasting your time, there will be no progress at all.
If you would have the experience of pvp servers and pve servers, so both, you would understand this point of view. There you get what you decided by your own, so have a real choice within the game. You can have 3 characters on pve servers and 3 different ones on pvp servers and you will have meaningful content with all consequences you decided by your own during that situation. No other player or design can change your decision. You are the only one who can do that, by yourself.
How can you not play in groups 24/7 and how have I never had this problem? This sounds like a solo player mentality where they don't find a guild that fits them. Either playing with a tiny friend group and relying on them to be on, or doesn't care to build strong connections with people and just has random small groups around that are inconsistent.
Pretty much there is no excuse for not finding a group that fits your play time when you need to group, on top of having multiple groups around at different play times. This includes morning, mid day, night, or 3am.
Mag7spy
3
Re: Ashes of Creation must dodge this bullet
First of all, I love your video (I like your content in general).
Secondly, I disagree entirely with nearly everything in it that isn't just the obvious observations at the start.
The only type of 'slower leveling' I'd accept in Ashes is the BDO style, where leveling from level 44-50 is just an incredible slog that feels practically pointless to do unless you're that person who wants to get Server First for like, level 48.
First of all, Level Sync/Level Cap is a thing in MMOs. Whether people like it or not, you can do it, and that means you can spend more time adding Level Capped content and max level players will still interact with it. Yes, there's a psychological effect that some players experience where they don't want to do this, but in a PvX game, I believe this effect is lessened.
Players always drop off, but in Ashes, lower and mid level content changes its location on the map, and the goals of the players can change with it. They have the option, as Nodes progress, to just wholesale raise the level of content. Node A vassalizes node B, Node A's enemy population is now higher level, Node B remains the source of lower level content. But eventually Node A goes up to whatever the max is, and Node B follows, until there is less lower level content on the map, and no one minds.
Bear in mind that this is just 'the mobs themselves are stronger and use different abilities and tactics'. So the player who has learned to fight the level 20 version of something is then challenged by the new abilities of the level 30 version of the same thing. If you don't level at a decent pace, you have a higher difficulty as a designer 'adding more challenge to the mobs'.
The mention of slowing down to make sure that the max content is encountered in 'waves', is already achieved with the current leveling speed, because Nodes are not planned to rise that fast. People might hit the level, but not unlock the content.
Any assumption that things become considerably faster in the leveling phase because of developed Nodes is weirdly double-sided. If Nodes are developed, why should people level slower anyway? Those people are 'headed toward the same current content'. And the relatively rapid changes in the world would mean that no one 'knows' how to level faster, outside of what Intrepid already mostly 'planned' for them to know. It's not that this isn't a 'problem' at all, it just solves itself.
Achievements tie into leveling, but they're not really directly connected to it. Leveling is generally either just a grind, in which your achievement is 'gaining a new way to fight or a more powerful opponent', or it's a series of adventures. MMOs generally give people a 'tangible' reward for their adventures, but in a game where economy is supposed to matter, you can't just hand out rewards, so 'enough exp to get half a level' is the next best thing.
I think in the end, you have a preference for it to be longer than it is which is fine, but the problems presented have thresholds of speed. There's a specific point at which these things become problems, and '270 hours' is nowhere near it, particularly if leveling is a pretty standard exp curve (i.e. you reach level 30 within approx 100 hours, level 40 around 170 hours, level 50 at the 270-ish mark).
As for Freeholds, that's also not a question of leveling speed. Freeholds will go to the highest level player a lot of the time, but if it didn't... then what? More random people holding them and then not sticking with the game? Freeholds as a whole are messed up for many reasons, but leveling slower won't resolve any of them.
I'm reminded that this sort of thing works way better as a Reaction Video, but eh, I don't make those.
Secondly, I disagree entirely with nearly everything in it that isn't just the obvious observations at the start.
The only type of 'slower leveling' I'd accept in Ashes is the BDO style, where leveling from level 44-50 is just an incredible slog that feels practically pointless to do unless you're that person who wants to get Server First for like, level 48.
First of all, Level Sync/Level Cap is a thing in MMOs. Whether people like it or not, you can do it, and that means you can spend more time adding Level Capped content and max level players will still interact with it. Yes, there's a psychological effect that some players experience where they don't want to do this, but in a PvX game, I believe this effect is lessened.
Players always drop off, but in Ashes, lower and mid level content changes its location on the map, and the goals of the players can change with it. They have the option, as Nodes progress, to just wholesale raise the level of content. Node A vassalizes node B, Node A's enemy population is now higher level, Node B remains the source of lower level content. But eventually Node A goes up to whatever the max is, and Node B follows, until there is less lower level content on the map, and no one minds.
Bear in mind that this is just 'the mobs themselves are stronger and use different abilities and tactics'. So the player who has learned to fight the level 20 version of something is then challenged by the new abilities of the level 30 version of the same thing. If you don't level at a decent pace, you have a higher difficulty as a designer 'adding more challenge to the mobs'.
The mention of slowing down to make sure that the max content is encountered in 'waves', is already achieved with the current leveling speed, because Nodes are not planned to rise that fast. People might hit the level, but not unlock the content.
Any assumption that things become considerably faster in the leveling phase because of developed Nodes is weirdly double-sided. If Nodes are developed, why should people level slower anyway? Those people are 'headed toward the same current content'. And the relatively rapid changes in the world would mean that no one 'knows' how to level faster, outside of what Intrepid already mostly 'planned' for them to know. It's not that this isn't a 'problem' at all, it just solves itself.
Achievements tie into leveling, but they're not really directly connected to it. Leveling is generally either just a grind, in which your achievement is 'gaining a new way to fight or a more powerful opponent', or it's a series of adventures. MMOs generally give people a 'tangible' reward for their adventures, but in a game where economy is supposed to matter, you can't just hand out rewards, so 'enough exp to get half a level' is the next best thing.
I think in the end, you have a preference for it to be longer than it is which is fine, but the problems presented have thresholds of speed. There's a specific point at which these things become problems, and '270 hours' is nowhere near it, particularly if leveling is a pretty standard exp curve (i.e. you reach level 30 within approx 100 hours, level 40 around 170 hours, level 50 at the 270-ish mark).
As for Freeholds, that's also not a question of leveling speed. Freeholds will go to the highest level player a lot of the time, but if it didn't... then what? More random people holding them and then not sticking with the game? Freeholds as a whole are messed up for many reasons, but leveling slower won't resolve any of them.
I'm reminded that this sort of thing works way better as a Reaction Video, but eh, I don't make those.
Azherae
2
Re: General armour stat idea
I'd oppose it, but not much.
It's adding more specific forms of understanding to something that can just be represented differently.
Also I'd feel way more positive toward a game that didn't even really have any significant option for 'damage that deals 65-100% of a player's HP' in common situations.
I also feel that it would be hard to explain and end up being a noob trap as described.
It's not really that I don't like the concept of this sort of thing, it's just complicated and raises a lot of design questions that I would prefer players get to avoid as much as possible.
As for this sort of thing in general, I feel like TL's method requires the least 'direct understanding/number crunching' of the current MMO crop, I like the way that Predecessor designs and labels defense items almost as much, and like Lodrig, I like the elemental defense options (unsurprising, as an FFXI player, I guess).
But I don't think the FFXI version does a good enough job of making players really 'feel' the difference intuitively (it's more of a thing players pick up on over time), the TL version is too flat, and the Predecessor form of it would need to take aspects of the other two, to result in a clear, positive experience in an MMO. It might also be impossible to make it feel good in an MMO that uses %-chance-of-resisting-status much more often than 'status duration reduction' such as Ashes.
So I guess my input is 'considering that Ashes is expecting to be complex, they might as well do it properly'.
It's adding more specific forms of understanding to something that can just be represented differently.
Also I'd feel way more positive toward a game that didn't even really have any significant option for 'damage that deals 65-100% of a player's HP' in common situations.
I also feel that it would be hard to explain and end up being a noob trap as described.
It's not really that I don't like the concept of this sort of thing, it's just complicated and raises a lot of design questions that I would prefer players get to avoid as much as possible.
As for this sort of thing in general, I feel like TL's method requires the least 'direct understanding/number crunching' of the current MMO crop, I like the way that Predecessor designs and labels defense items almost as much, and like Lodrig, I like the elemental defense options (unsurprising, as an FFXI player, I guess).
But I don't think the FFXI version does a good enough job of making players really 'feel' the difference intuitively (it's more of a thing players pick up on over time), the TL version is too flat, and the Predecessor form of it would need to take aspects of the other two, to result in a clear, positive experience in an MMO. It might also be impossible to make it feel good in an MMO that uses %-chance-of-resisting-status much more often than 'status duration reduction' such as Ashes.
So I guess my input is 'considering that Ashes is expecting to be complex, they might as well do it properly'.
Azherae
1