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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Best Of
Re: Sorrow of Support and Healing classes
I long pondered if mana efficiency would be a useful metric for healers. Basically a ratio of healing done (and damage dealt) per unit of mana.
In some circumstances it could give an indication of how well a healer is able to support the encounter on an apples-to-apples basis with other healers. Possibly it would also reflect how reactive vs proactive the healer is, given that the "oh shit" abilities generally require much more mana.
Ultimately I decided that it's probably not a very good metric because (1) some builds are more mana heavy than others, and more importantly, (2) the skill of the rest of the group probably has a bigger impact on a healer's mana efficiency than the healer's skill.
That said, I mention it here in case it might trigger thoughts from others on how it might be useful.
In some circumstances it could give an indication of how well a healer is able to support the encounter on an apples-to-apples basis with other healers. Possibly it would also reflect how reactive vs proactive the healer is, given that the "oh shit" abilities generally require much more mana.
Ultimately I decided that it's probably not a very good metric because (1) some builds are more mana heavy than others, and more importantly, (2) the skill of the rest of the group probably has a bigger impact on a healer's mana efficiency than the healer's skill.
That said, I mention it here in case it might trigger thoughts from others on how it might be useful.
Re: Player enemy visual Health Bar update on hit.
Some people in this world can only truly understand some things by directly experiencing it, sometimes it might not be the most happy experience, but remember not to blame the ones laughing that warned you about said experience.
Re: Player enemy visual Health Bar update on hit.
Well, what to say. Tha's confirmation enough to know to whom we are talking here and what toxic behaviour this spreads into the game overall. Arrogant elitist behave confused with work/business instead entertainment/gaming.Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »Yes, it's the worse mmo to anyone who expects rewards just cause they showed up
There must be rewards if player time is invested. It's simple like this. Otherwise players fall back.
Being overgeared and only thus good pvp'ers then is only fun for one, this, playerbase. Not for all the others.
Should everybody gets everything - No. Nobody ever said this. Shoud there be ways that rewards can be reached by playing different types with different approach to PvE/PvP - Yes. This must the case, otherwise the playerbase will decrease rapdily.
There must be the hardest possible punishment if a player is harassing another and stealing him the most value of all life: Time. The game MUST prevent this toxic behaviour, corruption should lead to -99% health points for the guy doing it. If repeated, a service ticket with priority is written and the player must be banned permanently.
The situation is of course completely different if both players are pvp-flagged and ready for that content at this particular situation. There is no griefing, because being attacked is a decision which was done consciously from the player that gets attacked. There is no issue, it's his decision. I've been playing on pvp servers for so many years and got pk'ed thousend times - because it was MY decision.
Once this differentiation is really understood, the discussion will make sense.
We don't need huge systems, rules, workarounds, we need mature and non-toxic players, if the game should be fun and get popular. We need a huge playerbase for structured, mature pvp fights. So we must get rid ouf all the other players as fast as possible. All workarounds and catastrophic "designs" and playerbase of "your" L2 should never be shifted into this new MMO, done from mature professionals (hopefully) that take care of the time of the player, giving him rewards and progress.
Define mature and non toxic. This is a pvp game, remember. You won't change people, and I'm not sure I'd classify players who fight other players in a player vs player game as "toxic".
Most player combat will not be consensual. People don't make sure the other person is fully prepared before ever engaging.
All you can do is find a rule set people can live with or not have open world pvp.
Diamaht
2
Re: Where is the progress
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
1. Fomo has nothing to do with the progress of the game this is a separate topic
2. 200 people doesn't mean 200 also includes people that are not building art related things. having around 200 is a recent thing in the last year. As you are not clarifying you could be stretching or doing misinformation if you re trying to suggest the have had 200 people for a certain amount of years or at the start of the project.
3. This has been explained to you in this thread, and in other threads but you continue to ignore people. I've even went as far as explain the details on why the looks of things can be different on a technical level. ( @Apok (this is why i said its a waste before as its been explained I've had to repeat this in multiple threads and he still uses the same point)
For the 4th time if they are changing lighting DO to PBR which gets its information from lighting it greatly effects all things in the scene so that is one of the things where you will see different quality. It is not limited to that, you are seeing a actual alpha in development they are also trying to polish.
This is akin to asking why a construction site looks messing as people are int he middle of building the house... I don't know how you are bringing this kind of point up again and again. This is a alpha not early access.
4. 8 years in development doesn't mean full production development, you are also talking about the preproduction, and the time they were not in full production on creating the game and content. You can look at other games that do preproduction ahead of time and most likely won't include the time that goes into that. On top of that this is a indie studio its going to be slower for them before it gets into full production as this is an expensive genre to make.
5. I don't really care about this combat aspect.
These are not strong points....I'm sure there are much better ones that make sense. This is more like you complaining a alpha is in development and isn't a full game yet.
There is not much point having this conversation with you mate, no hard feelings but the questions I would like answered from intrepid. I understand they have not had 200 devs for the entirety of the project but the reason I made this post essentially is the dragon showcase, if you believe that 3 years of progress have been added to that encounter I have nothing to say to you
Furthermore I agree progress has been made with lighting etc, the graphics are not my issue, my issue is that apart from the tiny points of interest setup souly for the live streams, the rest of the map from what I have seen just looks bland, UE5 can make the visuals of the world looks amazing but the world it's self to engage people needs a real artist and I feel like this is what the game is lacking ( the question of why the game looks so different and varies so much in live streams ). And yes I understand it's an alpha but we should be seeing elements of completeness in the world by now even if unpolished
The question about the fomo, it is another topic but this is also my post and the topic was raised so I think it's reasonable to ask.
To conclude I think it's great you disagree with me, even encourage it, but to me personally the answers you give about these questions are not good enough, I think most people don't understand how negatively these issues can effect the finished product. Say for example we have 6 years left minimum, it feels like ( I could be wrong ) intrepid are running out of money with all the fomo marketing, if intrepid need to get a sponsor or partnership because of the long release schedule this is how p2w aspects come in and everything we don't want
This idea that you don't see 3 years of progress on a random level 25 raid boss does not make sense. You are trying to make a blanket statement when there is no reason for 3 years of progress to be seen on a single boss. Point of that was another open world boss people will be fighting that has some unique mechanics, the same how all open world bosses will end up being.
The map is massive not every single spot is going to be looking like a image to have a screenshot of. Your expectations are really out of the mark, not to mention the game is in development. You trying to make a argument areas don't look as good as you want to is more a question for after alpha or the end of alpha not during....
This doesn't make sense you are talking about seeing world completeness in a alpha state. Why on early are you going to see a complete state before we see all the biomes that are needed int he game. Again this is what happens (and you have admitted) to not understanding development. They aren't going to be finishing one biome but working on all them so they can test content in the areas and get them tested. There is no reason to see something in completeness right now...
You can ask whatever you want it has nothing to do with "Where is the progress" It is makes the thread more toxic as you have admitted to ranting. Which the point of that ends up just leading to get a bunch of people to jump on some hate train, which is very not productive in any kind of element of feedback. Trying to say where is the progress but then trying to throw any kind of negative feedback not to even do with the thread is a clear sign of that.
If you are worried about he game running out of funding make a thread for that and say IS is running out of money and they need to change what they are doing with your speculation, don't throw it into this thread.
i not once asked for 3 years of progress on a world boss, but the reality is there is not 3 months of progress added onto this world boss, it is the exact same, down to the last bad animation, its also not a random level 25 mob its one of the first encounters to a world boss in the game, also why is it unrealistic to expect progress on this after such a time period? i will remind you, this exact world boss has ALREADY been previewed 3 years prior, its ALREADY had the exact same forum post made asking for feedback and suggestions, and now we are 3 years on, asking for the exact same feedback that was not taken into account the first time around? what are we doing...
secondly i understand the map is massive and not every single spot will not look like a screen shot, but the point is, 3 years ago, the livestreams looked like the world had a soul, in todays livestreams it looks like whoever is working on the world, is spending a few weeks developing tiny portions to make the next livestream look good, and the rest of the world looks more bland than white rice, its just the same mountain, the same rock and the same tree copy and pasted into infinity to add the illusion that the world has anything more than 300 kms of nothing, YES you are right its an alpha, but after 8 years, there should be small area's of the world that dont need an entire re work, how many people noticed the high density fog and sunlight in the last livestream? i can guarantee thats just to hide the fact that there is nothing else outside of the crappy area for a boss fight
if you think my criticism is bad and toxic, you will have quite a shock when the NDA of A2 is released if it drops in this state, everything im saying, may sound toxic but one of the smartest things intrepid could do is take in on board, 200 of the best devs on the planet, we are at the point where they should be the ones making the calls and just focusing on designing the game instead of trying to get feedback on every single system that they show and just develop, at this point during the livestreams, they don't even sound like they want to be there anymore there is no excitement in their voice its hard to watch.
its quite obvious that the other two biomes added for the launch of A2 have been converted into '' lawless '' area's to hide the fact their not even remotely close to being done, and the fact that the entire A1 map was scrapped just for it to look worse 3 years on is a serious issue
Again this is not early access yuo are trying to be picky on the dragon mob with its animations in a alpha actually makes 0 sense. Functionality is the most important part not doing polish on animations so they are perfect, when they have a ton of other content they need to be adding animations for functionality. This idea you have that because they had a dragon before every element of it needs to be polished and finished is a terrible take. What is more important is all the other npcs / classes they need to be adding animation to so it can be in the game. You should feel lucky you don't see more T-poses if anything...
Stops saying 8 years you are trying to rage bait, they have not been in full production for 8 years. You are trying to make it seem like they have been going full force for a long period of time when they clearly have not. Being a indie studio it takes them longer than a triple A studio to get their talent and work force going. On top of any growing issues they have being a new studio.
The fact you are so focused on art looking done is entirely why i said most people can't handle alpha development. Art doesn't need to look finished, let alone have polished. What is important is getting as much functionality over as large of the game as possible. Not making sure certain areas are finished / polished to your own bias expectation.
Alpha 1 was a alpha testing area, why are you talking about something be scrapped that is meant solely for testing. You are simply just rage baiting at this point and bringing up the devs aren't happy to be there lmao.
Your criticisms about he studio having 200 people, complaining about art, time for the game to be made, fomo (this has already been talked about in the past and won't have a relation to the alpha 2) are not going to be complained about lmao. When i play deadlock and that game (though most likely further alone) art wise is lacking in some elements but people focus on the gameplay more than anything not complaining about the art.
People will play the alpha and complain about somethings for sure as most people can't handle an actual alpha. They think they can but in reality their expectations are akin to early access do to their own bias.
Your points are just weak and you are trying to focus on the worse aspect possible, idk why you are choosing art in an alpha to focus on over more design elements. Even more so when you are talking about art in one of the most massive worlds a mmorpg is trying to make.
I feel you are really trying to be over critical on this game as well as you try to reference unfinished areas as a reason why it looks bad, yet you are fine with some areas they also show off (that have more polish in them). Overall things look fine and its much easier to add more detail to areas when you have your base done, and they have many areas that need to be built. There is no reason for them to be finishing (polishing) area right now until people can walk over the entire map. This kind of contradicts your own post to be honest as you would see less progress if they were polishing everything more than they already have been as there would be less progress....
Mag7spy
1
Re: Where is the progress
Well I never bought (and never will buy) a product that is not finished or released. And if I invest my money, I want to get ALL information, all business and financial information, all the company stuff needed - so, like seroius investments are done and how investors work in professional business.I have been watching this game for a few years now, I was thinking about buying the alpha 2 pack but this thread has shown me that that would be a bad idea.
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
Maybe it's the frustration of waiting so long, but where are the DEVs, someone from the studio should be in this discussion. Baldur's Gate 3 with Larian and how they ran early access should have made a sea-change for any studio that offers early access.
I did see that the highest search topic from their studio is employee burnout followed by break room solutions, so I imagine that is what the issue is.
And you seem to be right when talking about the communty. It seems to be a VERY special community coming out from a dead game (Lineage 2) with all that burned earth and those swarm is now starting to explain other MMO players (the majoriy) how content, features and things work...
I really don't care about 90 Euros buying a key, but it's not worth it for now AND the entire situation must be the other way round: If I should invest my time, intrepid can pay me. I can provide my daily rate, that's fine for me. But even this philosophy for me is just wrong: You say you want to gather feedback, but what you want, is, to get feedback from paying customers so you want to get confirmation within you own bubble. That's cheating, that's artificial feedback gathering. I'm a critical, really I'm am. It needs a lot to convince me or change my experience, but for the moment I'm no paying customer so intrepid and Steven doesnt care about my opinion. And those L2 fanboys in this forum also.
But: If I now just would buy an alpha key, would take me some seconds with paypal or credit card, I surprisingly would transfer in a player giving valuable feedback where intrepid is interested in. That's bad practicse, that's not ok. And the entire internet had the same opinon on that and that's just because they are right, those practices are bad. It's no scam, but it's bad business practice. Imagine other developers starting to take over this shit, then we will pay for all our games during development and we will pay for the glory of testing for the company for all future games.
Chaliux
1
Re: Where is the progress
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
1. Fomo has nothing to do with the progress of the game this is a separate topic
2. 200 people doesn't mean 200 also includes people that are not building art related things. having around 200 is a recent thing in the last year. As you are not clarifying you could be stretching or doing misinformation if you re trying to suggest the have had 200 people for a certain amount of years or at the start of the project.
3. This has been explained to you in this thread, and in other threads but you continue to ignore people. I've even went as far as explain the details on why the looks of things can be different on a technical level. ( @Apok (this is why i said its a waste before as its been explained I've had to repeat this in multiple threads and he still uses the same point)
For the 4th time if they are changing lighting DO to PBR which gets its information from lighting it greatly effects all things in the scene so that is one of the things where you will see different quality. It is not limited to that, you are seeing a actual alpha in development they are also trying to polish.
This is akin to asking why a construction site looks messing as people are int he middle of building the house... I don't know how you are bringing this kind of point up again and again. This is a alpha not early access.
4. 8 years in development doesn't mean full production development, you are also talking about the preproduction, and the time they were not in full production on creating the game and content. You can look at other games that do preproduction ahead of time and most likely won't include the time that goes into that. On top of that this is a indie studio its going to be slower for them before it gets into full production as this is an expensive genre to make.
5. I don't really care about this combat aspect.
These are not strong points....I'm sure there are much better ones that make sense. This is more like you complaining a alpha is in development and isn't a full game yet.
There is not much point having this conversation with you mate, no hard feelings but the questions I would like answered from intrepid. I understand they have not had 200 devs for the entirety of the project but the reason I made this post essentially is the dragon showcase, if you believe that 3 years of progress have been added to that encounter I have nothing to say to you
Furthermore I agree progress has been made with lighting etc, the graphics are not my issue, my issue is that apart from the tiny points of interest setup souly for the live streams, the rest of the map from what I have seen just looks bland, UE5 can make the visuals of the world looks amazing but the world it's self to engage people needs a real artist and I feel like this is what the game is lacking ( the question of why the game looks so different and varies so much in live streams ). And yes I understand it's an alpha but we should be seeing elements of completeness in the world by now even if unpolished
The question about the fomo, it is another topic but this is also my post and the topic was raised so I think it's reasonable to ask.
To conclude I think it's great you disagree with me, even encourage it, but to me personally the answers you give about these questions are not good enough, I think most people don't understand how negatively these issues can effect the finished product. Say for example we have 6 years left minimum, it feels like ( I could be wrong ) intrepid are running out of money with all the fomo marketing, if intrepid need to get a sponsor or partnership because of the long release schedule this is how p2w aspects come in and everything we don't want
This idea that you don't see 3 years of progress on a random level 25 raid boss does not make sense. You are trying to make a blanket statement when there is no reason for 3 years of progress to be seen on a single boss. Point of that was another open world boss people will be fighting that has some unique mechanics, the same how all open world bosses will end up being.
The map is massive not every single spot is going to be looking like a image to have a screenshot of. Your expectations are really out of the mark, not to mention the game is in development. You trying to make a argument areas don't look as good as you want to is more a question for after alpha or the end of alpha not during....
This doesn't make sense you are talking about seeing world completeness in a alpha state. Why on early are you going to see a complete state before we see all the biomes that are needed int he game. Again this is what happens (and you have admitted) to not understanding development. They aren't going to be finishing one biome but working on all them so they can test content in the areas and get them tested. There is no reason to see something in completeness right now...
You can ask whatever you want it has nothing to do with "Where is the progress" It is makes the thread more toxic as you have admitted to ranting. Which the point of that ends up just leading to get a bunch of people to jump on some hate train, which is very not productive in any kind of element of feedback. Trying to say where is the progress but then trying to throw any kind of negative feedback not to even do with the thread is a clear sign of that.
If you are worried about he game running out of funding make a thread for that and say IS is running out of money and they need to change what they are doing with your speculation, don't throw it into this thread.
i not once asked for 3 years of progress on a world boss, but the reality is there is not 3 months of progress added onto this world boss, it is the exact same, down to the last bad animation, its also not a random level 25 mob its one of the first encounters to a world boss in the game, also why is it unrealistic to expect progress on this after such a time period? i will remind you, this exact world boss has ALREADY been previewed 3 years prior, its ALREADY had the exact same forum post made asking for feedback and suggestions, and now we are 3 years on, asking for the exact same feedback that was not taken into account the first time around? what are we doing...
secondly i understand the map is massive and not every single spot will not look like a screen shot, but the point is, 3 years ago, the livestreams looked like the world had a soul, in todays livestreams it looks like whoever is working on the world, is spending a few weeks developing tiny portions to make the next livestream look good, and the rest of the world looks more bland than white rice, its just the same mountain, the same rock and the same tree copy and pasted into infinity to add the illusion that the world has anything more than 300 kms of nothing, YES you are right its an alpha, but after 8 years, there should be small area's of the world that dont need an entire re work, how many people noticed the high density fog and sunlight in the last livestream? i can guarantee thats just to hide the fact that there is nothing else outside of the crappy area for a boss fight
if you think my criticism is bad and toxic, you will have quite a shock when the NDA of A2 is released if it drops in this state, everything im saying, may sound toxic but one of the smartest things intrepid could do is take in on board, 200 of the best devs on the planet, we are at the point where they should be the ones making the calls and just focusing on designing the game instead of trying to get feedback on every single system that they show and just develop, at this point during the livestreams, they don't even sound like they want to be there anymore there is no excitement in their voice its hard to watch.
its quite obvious that the other two biomes added for the launch of A2 have been converted into '' lawless '' area's to hide the fact their not even remotely close to being done, and the fact that the entire A1 map was scrapped just for it to look worse 3 years on is a serious issue
also i will add, you think that me bringing up funding for the game is another topic, if intrepid are going to use low fomo marketing techniques to get people to Fomo into this game, then that is the EXACT reason we should be seeing more progress, and if you want to look at the 10s of millions of dollars that have been funded by the community for this game since A1, then yes the question needs to be asked what is it being used for if basic dragon animations are still the same 3 years prior, as i stated many times, if this didnt feel like a cash grab then there would be no issue with how slow the development process is or what progress had been made, but since they are doing everything in their power to influence the community to donate to the project then yes we want answers
Chicago
1
Re: Where is the progress
No, my post was definitely aimed at the right person.
Although there even worse in this thread, I’ve played MMO, for nigh on 30 years, if not longer, and the one thing that always proven fanboys, are poison for any mmo, it’s the ones who question, push, and demand that normally makes changes happened, maybe not always the right changes, but changes.
FanBois will not really see any wrong and when they forced to, they still hedge.
I don’t know why fanboi, always put game devs in pedestal, then normally do the most to tear them down, post game release.
Best posting so far.
Same here, throwing ~25 years of MMO experience in, starting with DAoC and ending with New World. Played nearly all in between beside Archage and L2 - and that was and still is best decision in my entire pc gaming career, watching my full steam, battlenet, EA, Epic, Ubisoft library with hundrets of games and all pc milestones that you can buy with money.
Chaliux
1
Re: Where is the progress
daveywavey wrote: »Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
To be fair, the OP's generally one of the main perpetrators there! Hahaha
And the points made weren't actually that good, when you look at them as part of a development process. You don't build a house from the top downwards, you build it from the ground upwards. He's asking for the middle/top floors, when the foundations and ground floors are still being made.
Thank you for replying, the hahahaha! Sais all I need to know, however if these questions ever got answered I wouldn't need to ask them
If you were building a house, and went to inspect it and saw a small but solid base established, then went away for 3 years,
whilst away the builders were sending you videos of your beautiful house being built and it looked astonishing, you come back to inspect it again to find the house looks nothing like the videos, infact the entire base had been scrapped and all they had kept was a thin layer of cement which had been painted but was the exact same, you would be okay with it?
Chicago
1
Re: Where is the progress
Yep. We have seen the Predator Class do some Predator stuff.
Literally.
lmao you have to be joking, furthermore if that is seeing the class and not just a piece of material they have made for a 2 minute cinematic, it again raises the question, why could the game look like that 7 years ago but looks like trash now, and where is all the progress..
Chicago
1
Re: Player enemy visual Health Bar update on hit.
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »Yes, it's the worse mmo to anyone who expects rewards just cause they showed up and also don't want to be in a constant party in a guild that requires you to give back as much as the guild gives them.L2 just sounds like a worse game the more it comes up. Anti-social MMO with poor reward structures which apparently means there was nothing better for players to do than grief each other over farm spots.
No wonder it died
Amazing how that refers to literally no one in this thread or in any thread that's appeared on the forums thus far. Really is incredible how thoroughly you've chosen to misconstrue people who don't agree with you while your comments have fallen into personal insults over any premise of caring about the health of Ashes as a game.
Also very odd to me that you're claiming that your issue with people having any health info about players they're in active combat with is that people will use that info to grief in a particular unintended way, but in the next breath you claim that method of griefing isn't actually griefing and actually is intended as part of the game, and also the game where you and Flanker here did that type of griefing didn't have any healthbar info and you still harassed players over grind spots without being willing to actually commit to the consequences of the fighting.
Caeryl
2