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Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
This RNG gear enhancement, dull mob grind and strong vertical power scaling (In an open world PvP environment) undermines (almost) everything that is fun in a video game in general. There are 7 different basic video game design principles that determine gameplay fun.
1. competence & challenge
The player is challenged, but not overwhelmed. This creates the so-called flow state. Fun is created when you get better, overcome obstacles and surpass yourself in your abilities.
2. autonomy & freedom of choice
Players want to make meaningful decisions. Freedom of choice creates a sense of control and self-efficacy. Fun is created when you have the feeling: “I have an influence on this world.”
3. connectedness & social resonance
Multiplayer games, MMO´s, guilds, co-op: playing together (and against others) strengthens bonds and creates collective fun. Fun comes from community or emotional connection.
4. discovery & curiosity
Fun exploring worlds, mechanics or stories. The thirst for knowledge is rewarded.
The player thinks: “What else is out there?”
5. fantasy & aesthetics
The escape into other worlds, roles or perspectives. Many games offer emotional or visual experiences. Fun through aesthetic fascination or immersion.
6. narration & meaning
Stories and Interactions with meaning create emotional depth. You don't just experience something, you feel something. Fun is often more “meaningful” than entertaining.
7. reward & progress
Level-ups, loot, new skills - the progression system activates our reward system. Fun through measurable growth and feedback.
Principles 1-6 are inherent fun, i.e. the activities themselves are fun. No. 7 is external fun. The activities you do don't necessarily have to be fun, the rewards just have to be good enough to motivate you.
Ashes tries to apply all these principles. Intrepid also places great emphasis on No. 7 with a strongly vertical power scaling, long and dull mob grind and RNG gear enhancement.
1. strong vertical power scaling should increase the extrinsic motivation to make progress.
2. the grind should only artificially create playtime until you get the reward.
3. an RNG Gear Enhancement System should increase the thrill of the reward and thus reinforce it.
The problem, however, is that Ashes contradicts and damages many inherent fun principles with these three concepts, which all lead up to and reinforce #7.
The way in which Ashes #7 is motivated, prolonged and reinforced by thrills contradicts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #6
No. 1 Skill & Challenge
The RNG Gear Enhancement System will penalize the player for something which they have no control. You lose resources, progress, even items and become weaker.
This contradicts the flow principle (skill growth) and often creates learning blocks or frustration. (Which in itself is not a bad thing to go backwards if the cause was my lack of skills)
No. 2 Autonomy & freedom of choice
Successful enhancement is not skill-based, but random. This can destroy autonomy and a sense of competence. Players feel powerless because their efforts are not reliably rewarded. There is no player agancy here. If I want to get ahead, I hand over success or failure to a passive system.
To compensate for the luck system, there is often massive grinding, which artificially inflates the playing time but doesn't really fill it with content.
No. 3 Connectedness & social resonance
The strongly vertical power scaling harms being part of a collective. It does not connect through shared meaning and adventure, but divides through strong power differences. Low level or low geared players will feel disconnected from the high level players and useless to the community, e.g. in PvP. The prolonged leveling process only reinforces the time gap.
No. 4 Discovery & Curiosity
The highly vertical power scaling will increase the need to progress. This will feel more like a compulsion than fun. This perceived compulsion and dull grind will kill the fascination and curiosity for the beautiful game world.
No. 6 Narration & Meaning
With the tedious dull grind, the wide separation from the other players you want to catch up with in order to be included and the regression of gear progression over whose success or failure you have no control, the very last meaning and purpose of your efforts is completely emptied. This makes the entire progression feel pointless.
The reinforcement of rewards through RNG, their artificial and blunt temporal extension through mob grind and the compulsive gear progression through a strong vertical power scaling that leads into a one shot fiesta will only lead to one thing: All the players who experience gameplay fun through inherent motivation (#1-6) will leave the game completely fatigued, pointless, bored and disappointed after a few months at the latest. The only players left will be those who enjoy the game through the reinforcement and extension of No. 7. No. 7 will ultimately dominate and destroy everything else. It exploits psychological weaknesses (FOMO, reward dopamine, fear of loss) rather than focusing on sustained enjoyment through skill, discovery, community or meaning.
If most players then leave, a world as large as Ashes can no longer be sufficiently populated and player-driven content no longer works well, then this leads, as in any other MMORPG with such power scaling (korean MMORPG´s), RNG Gear Enhancement System and long and dull grind, to catch-up mechanics, leveling will run faster to get to the endgame quicker to be able to retain new players. that devalues all Progress, Zones and Items.. Come on guys, we know this from 1000 other MMORPG's.
My biggest problem here is the strong vertical power scaling that will turn open world PvP into a one shot fiesta. All the other stuff just compounds the problem. Personally I love long level phases and progress and open world PvP.
1. competence & challenge
The player is challenged, but not overwhelmed. This creates the so-called flow state. Fun is created when you get better, overcome obstacles and surpass yourself in your abilities.
2. autonomy & freedom of choice
Players want to make meaningful decisions. Freedom of choice creates a sense of control and self-efficacy. Fun is created when you have the feeling: “I have an influence on this world.”
3. connectedness & social resonance
Multiplayer games, MMO´s, guilds, co-op: playing together (and against others) strengthens bonds and creates collective fun. Fun comes from community or emotional connection.
4. discovery & curiosity
Fun exploring worlds, mechanics or stories. The thirst for knowledge is rewarded.
The player thinks: “What else is out there?”
5. fantasy & aesthetics
The escape into other worlds, roles or perspectives. Many games offer emotional or visual experiences. Fun through aesthetic fascination or immersion.
6. narration & meaning
Stories and Interactions with meaning create emotional depth. You don't just experience something, you feel something. Fun is often more “meaningful” than entertaining.
7. reward & progress
Level-ups, loot, new skills - the progression system activates our reward system. Fun through measurable growth and feedback.
Principles 1-6 are inherent fun, i.e. the activities themselves are fun. No. 7 is external fun. The activities you do don't necessarily have to be fun, the rewards just have to be good enough to motivate you.
Ashes tries to apply all these principles. Intrepid also places great emphasis on No. 7 with a strongly vertical power scaling, long and dull mob grind and RNG gear enhancement.
1. strong vertical power scaling should increase the extrinsic motivation to make progress.
2. the grind should only artificially create playtime until you get the reward.
3. an RNG Gear Enhancement System should increase the thrill of the reward and thus reinforce it.
The problem, however, is that Ashes contradicts and damages many inherent fun principles with these three concepts, which all lead up to and reinforce #7.
The way in which Ashes #7 is motivated, prolonged and reinforced by thrills contradicts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #6
No. 1 Skill & Challenge
The RNG Gear Enhancement System will penalize the player for something which they have no control. You lose resources, progress, even items and become weaker.
This contradicts the flow principle (skill growth) and often creates learning blocks or frustration. (Which in itself is not a bad thing to go backwards if the cause was my lack of skills)
No. 2 Autonomy & freedom of choice
Successful enhancement is not skill-based, but random. This can destroy autonomy and a sense of competence. Players feel powerless because their efforts are not reliably rewarded. There is no player agancy here. If I want to get ahead, I hand over success or failure to a passive system.
To compensate for the luck system, there is often massive grinding, which artificially inflates the playing time but doesn't really fill it with content.
No. 3 Connectedness & social resonance
The strongly vertical power scaling harms being part of a collective. It does not connect through shared meaning and adventure, but divides through strong power differences. Low level or low geared players will feel disconnected from the high level players and useless to the community, e.g. in PvP. The prolonged leveling process only reinforces the time gap.
No. 4 Discovery & Curiosity
The highly vertical power scaling will increase the need to progress. This will feel more like a compulsion than fun. This perceived compulsion and dull grind will kill the fascination and curiosity for the beautiful game world.
No. 6 Narration & Meaning
With the tedious dull grind, the wide separation from the other players you want to catch up with in order to be included and the regression of gear progression over whose success or failure you have no control, the very last meaning and purpose of your efforts is completely emptied. This makes the entire progression feel pointless.
The reinforcement of rewards through RNG, their artificial and blunt temporal extension through mob grind and the compulsive gear progression through a strong vertical power scaling that leads into a one shot fiesta will only lead to one thing: All the players who experience gameplay fun through inherent motivation (#1-6) will leave the game completely fatigued, pointless, bored and disappointed after a few months at the latest. The only players left will be those who enjoy the game through the reinforcement and extension of No. 7. No. 7 will ultimately dominate and destroy everything else. It exploits psychological weaknesses (FOMO, reward dopamine, fear of loss) rather than focusing on sustained enjoyment through skill, discovery, community or meaning.
If most players then leave, a world as large as Ashes can no longer be sufficiently populated and player-driven content no longer works well, then this leads, as in any other MMORPG with such power scaling (korean MMORPG´s), RNG Gear Enhancement System and long and dull grind, to catch-up mechanics, leveling will run faster to get to the endgame quicker to be able to retain new players. that devalues all Progress, Zones and Items.. Come on guys, we know this from 1000 other MMORPG's.
My biggest problem here is the strong vertical power scaling that will turn open world PvP into a one shot fiesta. All the other stuff just compounds the problem. Personally I love long level phases and progress and open world PvP.
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
If Ashes doesn't have enough of a newbie inflow to create pvp situations for latecomers and returnees - it won't survive for long.Sophisticus wrote: »This power scaling creates a huge gap between new players and veterans. Such a long level phase exacerbates this. Ultimately, Ashes would become a mmorpg where new players and returnees will always ask “is it still worth starting the game”. And what do you think they would say to the fact that in an open world pvp mmorpg you have to level for 225 hours before you can participate in pvp battles without being one shottet?
Long lvling in all aspects (artisanry, questing, explorations, etc) means that casual players can just enjoy a bit of everything on any given day, and not just boost their lvls as quickly as possible. And this then means that they won't be all that high of an adventure lvl, even several months into the game's release.
Outside of that, Ashes will never have the kind of balancing where a veteran player won't be able to kill a lowbie super quickly. Even if it's not one-shot and instead a 3- or 4-shot - that's still barely a few seconds and wouldn't change the situation all that much.
As for participating in pvp events - Steven said there'll be tasks for newbies to do during those, which won't involve going up against high lvl players directly.
Ludullu
1
Re: Please Delay P3
It's still surprising to me that people still think that a delay will make a difference... it got delayed by 3 weeks wtf do you think they will achieve? now everyone will say oh they delayed it and it still sucks ( it's an alpha it will still have problems) and they will loose a lot because of it ... you can't be a very bright person if you think the delay will change anything. This listen to the players b**lsh*t needs to stop devs need to have a vision and keep that...
Meux88
1
Re: Nodes & Classes
Hey @GothGhost 
really creative ideas here, I can tell you put a lot of thought into this!
I’d like to offer some perspective based on Ashes of Creation’s core design philosophy:
🔹 On Nodes:
I agree, the Emporium should definitely offer exclusive benefits to citizens, that aligns perfectly with the goal of making citizenship meaningful.
About the scientific node election, while popular vote may feel a bit plain, it’s also the most democratic. Still, I love your suggestion to explore something more thematic that fits the scholar/merit-based flavor better.
Your ideas for unique buildings like a dueling coliseum (with no penalties) or a PvE horde mode for divine nodes sound amazing. These would add both flavor and mechanical diversity, and I think they fit well with the modular node system.
🔹 On Class Skills:
Some of your class abilities are really fun and flashy, and they’d fit right into a more arcade-style MMO. But in Ashes, the system is designed around 64 class combinations, with power coming from synergy and augments rather than ultimates or MOBA-style skills.
A few quick thoughts:
Several skills you mentioned (like 100% evasion, 70% damage, massive slows/stuns) might break PvP/PvE balance in Ashes’ open-world sandbox, where counterplay and group coordination matter a lot.
Intrepid has emphasized they want each class to feel deep through skill selection and augmentation, not through raw power spikes or ultimate-type buttons.
That said, your vision of how each archetype feels is great, and it could definitely inspire augments, legendary weapon effects, or special node-specific abilities in the future.
✅ TL;DR:
I support the unique node building ideas, really thematic and aligned with Ashes’ vision.
I don’t support implementing the class abilities exactly as written, as they go against the balance-first, synergy-based system Intrepid is building.
But I do support the spirit behind them, expanding class identity is important, and creative ideas like this could inspire future augment designs.
Thanks for sharing this, always fun to read passionate input from the community!
really creative ideas here, I can tell you put a lot of thought into this!I’d like to offer some perspective based on Ashes of Creation’s core design philosophy:
🔹 On Nodes:
I agree, the Emporium should definitely offer exclusive benefits to citizens, that aligns perfectly with the goal of making citizenship meaningful.
About the scientific node election, while popular vote may feel a bit plain, it’s also the most democratic. Still, I love your suggestion to explore something more thematic that fits the scholar/merit-based flavor better.
Your ideas for unique buildings like a dueling coliseum (with no penalties) or a PvE horde mode for divine nodes sound amazing. These would add both flavor and mechanical diversity, and I think they fit well with the modular node system.
🔹 On Class Skills:
Some of your class abilities are really fun and flashy, and they’d fit right into a more arcade-style MMO. But in Ashes, the system is designed around 64 class combinations, with power coming from synergy and augments rather than ultimates or MOBA-style skills.
A few quick thoughts:
Several skills you mentioned (like 100% evasion, 70% damage, massive slows/stuns) might break PvP/PvE balance in Ashes’ open-world sandbox, where counterplay and group coordination matter a lot.
Intrepid has emphasized they want each class to feel deep through skill selection and augmentation, not through raw power spikes or ultimate-type buttons.
That said, your vision of how each archetype feels is great, and it could definitely inspire augments, legendary weapon effects, or special node-specific abilities in the future.
✅ TL;DR:
I support the unique node building ideas, really thematic and aligned with Ashes’ vision.
I don’t support implementing the class abilities exactly as written, as they go against the balance-first, synergy-based system Intrepid is building.
But I do support the spirit behind them, expanding class identity is important, and creative ideas like this could inspire future augment designs.
Thanks for sharing this, always fun to read passionate input from the community!
Vyllz
1
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
Sophisticus wrote: »Sophisticus wrote: »Sophisticus wrote: »This doesn't work well in Ashes or similar games because it has absolutely open trade between players and the death penalties are not 'full loot'.
Those requirements are part of the already-thin veil of 'defense' the game has against people who get boosted via who they know and the resultant RMT.
I really wish Ashes had gone with the full loot concept. That solves so many problems.
Yeah, including the need to have servers capable of holding more than 500 players concurrently.
You dont like full loot?
Albion is very successful in this regard and has a well-functioning economic system (but I was never the economic player in it).
Most people don't like full loot.
In a full loot game, gear is just like consumables.
Which is why most people that want to play an MMORPG don't like it.
Noaani
2
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
If Ashes doesn't have enough of a newbie inflow to create pvp situations for latecomers and returnees - it won't survive for long.Sophisticus wrote: »This power scaling creates a huge gap between new players and veterans. Such a long level phase exacerbates this. Ultimately, Ashes would become a mmorpg where new players and returnees will always ask “is it still worth starting the game”. And what do you think they would say to the fact that in an open world pvp mmorpg you have to level for 225 hours before you can participate in pvp battles without being one shottet?
Long lvling in all aspects (artisanry, questing, explorations, etc) means that casual players can just enjoy a bit of everything on any given day, and not just boost their lvls as quickly as possible. And this then means that they won't be all that high of an adventure lvl, even several months into the game's release.
Outside of that, Ashes will never have the kind of balancing where a veteran player won't be able to kill a lowbie super quickly. Even if it's not one-shot and instead a 3- or 4-shot - that's still barely a few seconds and wouldn't change the situation all that much.
As for participating in pvp events - Steven said there'll be tasks for newbies to do during those, which won't involve going up against high lvl players directly.
One thing I will point out for Intrepid if relevant.
Please do not count kills during these events for any PvP leaderboards if you want a mixed experience.
I can go to Guild PvP events in Throne and Liberty which have PvE objectives and deliveries and such, I can disrupt, evade, sneak, and get players to chase my tail off cliffs and waste time. This is all fun to me. But I often end up being the only person not in a big group there, because it's just playing 'Manhunt'.
And even if I thought I could find good PvP there, what almost always happens is that as soon as the big PvP guilds get even a whiff that there might be literally anyone else to kill they locust-swarm the event. So it goes from being 'Evade these 3 oneshot DPS classes who are here to get their Guild some merit/prestige' to 'There are 2 sets of 2 dozen people here from the same top 2 guild, and half of them are in charge of just guarding the turn-in points'. Sometimes they don't even fight each other!
Because every newbie or 'Manhunt Target' they set their eyes on is one more chance to rise in the Kills Leaderboard for bragging rights (well, more like 'not being mocked or disregarded' rights). There's also a weekly mission for these kills! Yaay.
Plz donot.
Azherae
1
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
This is false btw. There's always pvp, as long as you look for it. And, if anything, slower leveling helps with it, because more people will be at gearing stages for longer. And when gear is rare and expensive (as opposed to full loot games) - people's power within a gear tier bracket is not all that different, because half of them still have items from the previous tier and half are only starting to get better ones.Sophisticus wrote: »In any case, power scaling needs to become much more horizontal. Otherwise, I don't see how most players can be encouraged to continue for 225 hours (according to Steven, to level 50) without being able to participate in PvP battles to any reasonable extent. “It gets better in the endgame” is not a motivator.
Of course there'll be hardcore players who push past all of this, but they will also not be pvping lowbies, cause that's an utter waste of their time.
Ludullu
1
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
Sophisticus wrote: »Sophisticus wrote: »I want to be able to participate proactively in PvP battles, no matter what level, no matter what gear and at least not get one shots. Anything else would simply be bad PvP Experience.
This is an uncommon view when it comes to 'live'. Most people don't want to just be able to punch up a little bit, they want to be able to actually win. And basically no long-leveling MMORPG has a real way to offer this experience on the same character you build up over time.
Yes, it’s definitely an uncommon stance. Most players do want to actually be able to win. But my idea is this: Even if I don’t win, the vertical power scaling should be limited to a point where, as a low-level player, I can feel the power difference — but at the same time, I should also feel that with enough skill, I can start to overcome that gap in the near future.
That motivates me to keep leveling up and generally making progress. But if I don't feel like I have a chance, then it's pointless.
Well, I can tell you that you're definitely not so uncommon that your opinion is new to the forums. We've had lots of people come and say very similar things, and if those people were still here, your post would probably get a lot of traction.
But, as with most things that people don't 'see a path to change' from Intrepid, many of those people seem to have stopped following the game for now, either because it isn't far enough along, or because they lost interest. You're stuck with the few regulars who often also share your views but are too jaded to repeat all the discussion on it.
If you plan to become a regular around here, welcome. If you don't, check back in 6 months to see if any of us 'regulars' has managed to convince the Devs to balance the PvP differently, or ofc if they were always going to do that and just didn't have a way to say so clearly, so they just do it instead.
Azherae
2
Re: Steven, Please Rethink “Not for Everyone”
I can absolutely assure you that FF14, BDO, Throne and Liberty and probably Eternal Tombs can implement seasons faster than Ashes can.
Technically Throne and Liberty already has seasons mostly-implemented and they're just taking the path of implementation that Intrepid is now learning. But what is a season in an MMORPG really?
"Trees lose their leaves, ground is snowy, spawns and economy change."
Have you ever looked into BDO's Farming system? BDO simulates the movement of rainclouds over the landscape and the topography of the runoff.
Should we assume Ashes will also implement water tables when Freeholds are released? Because BDO does.
Technically Throne and Liberty already has seasons mostly-implemented and they're just taking the path of implementation that Intrepid is now learning. But what is a season in an MMORPG really?
"Trees lose their leaves, ground is snowy, spawns and economy change."
Have you ever looked into BDO's Farming system? BDO simulates the movement of rainclouds over the landscape and the topography of the runoff.
Should we assume Ashes will also implement water tables when Freeholds are released? Because BDO does.
Azherae
3
Re: Steven, Please Rethink “Not for Everyone”
Saabynator wrote: »GreatPhilisopher wrote: »Saabynator wrote: »As with many things in life - there is no never-ending well of money - at some point reality rears its ugly head...
While this is indeed true, it puts Intrepid in a bit of a position.
There are already large segments of the MMORPG community that will never be interested in Ashes. Steven's comments on combat trackers (not his decision, his obvious lack of understanding as to their function) has made it so every raiding community that i know of is no longer interested. That is quite literally millions of dedicated MMORPG players that will never again look at this game.Saabynator wrote: »Its like making a good dish, you take a bunch of good food and put it together.
The issue here is that in both cases, with food and with game design, it still takes knowledge and experience to get this right on a large scale.
You could take all the best foods you like and put them in to one dish, but if you dont know how food works, there is no guarantee it will work.
I like taleggio cheese, and i like salmon. There is no world in which these two foods should ever be on the same plate. Ideally, there is no world where these two foods should even be in concurrent courses in a multi-course meal.
On the other hand, white chocolate and caviar go together incredibly well, if executed by someone that can get the balance perfect.
Same with game design, different aspects that are great in some games wont all necessarily fit together in one game and result in a good game.
Placing limitations on crafters being able to get to the top end of crafting that only organized guilds are likely to be able to achieve can be a good mechanic. Making the vast majority of items in your game be player crafted can be a good thing. Putting these two things together, however, isn't necessarily a good thing.
Ashes is full of contradictions like this.
But, Steven is just opening the restaurant, he is not making the food. He just bought the place, made a so and so menu, and now he hired a bunch of chefs, to fuck around and find out. The menu will not be the same on day 1, as it will on opening day. He has a vision ofcource, but the food will change, when the chefs chimes in, and the people taste the appetizers
but steven is the one who get to say what dish stays and what dosent , if steven likes spicy lobster and a 100 people came and ate it , 90 of them said they dont like the way its done or just hate it all together and the chefs tell steven 90 people out of a 100 didnt like it so we have to change the way its done or to something else in a way where most people like it but steven refuses to because he likes it done that way even when most people dont.
Sure, it is probably his call in the end. But Steven does not strike me as a stupid man. He knows there is a marked for his type of MMO. He has a good idea on what is fun and what is not. If a vast majority of players end up hating something, it will most likely change.
There is a very big difference between someone that is stupid, and someone that is trying to do a job they are ill equipped to do.
Unfortunately, if you put a stupid person and a smart person in a difficult position that they are both equally ill equipped for, the stupid person is probably going to do better because they are more likely to be familiar with situations where they are over their heads.
For the smart person, this may well be new territory, and they may not know how to deal with that at all.
Steven absolutely is smart. However, that isn't an advantage for him here, it is potentially a disadvantage.
As to your last comment, keep in mind that Steven has already made comments that have turned hundreds of thousands of potential players away from this game.
There aren't that many players interested in Ashes as a long term game left - how many people need to hate a thing before Steven changes it?
Noaani
1