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Lawless Areas vs. Red PK

I know lawless is suppose to be limited to mainly the ocean, but is that what we want? Thoughts?

I’ve been thinking about the Lawless zone system versus the Red PK (flagging) system and wanted to throw some thoughts out there. I really believe there’s a place for both, and that each system brings different value to the game depending on how it’s implemented.

Why Lawless Areas Can Be a Good Thing:
They Give a Reason to Fight Over Spots
Lawless zones could (and should) include top-tier XP and or semi Top-tier loot spots. It adds value to the area and rewards PvP groups who can hold it. This also spreads out the leveling population — groups that don’t want to deal with PvP can choose safe, decent areas, while others can risk it for higher rewards.

Not Everyone Wants Ocean-Only PvP
The ocean content is solid and has a lot of potential, but land-based lawless zones would break up the monotony and offer more variety in PvP encounters — not just sea fights or scheduled wars and people with balls enough to attack back when you flag on them. Maybe even make some POIs/ Side Dungeons Lawless areas?

Spreads PvP Across the Map

Quick PvP Without Guild Politics (or YOLO Going Red)
Sometimes I just want to jump into a fight without declaring war or going red and risking my gear dropping on death. Lawless zones allow for quick action without dragging in your whole guild or committing to the full Red PK path.

The Downside of Lawless Zones:
Zerg Guilds and Gatekeeping
The biggest issue I see is zone-locking. A strong guild can roll in with a full raid group++ and hold down a zone indefinitely, denying content to smaller groups. This kills variety and creates PvP choke points that are more about numbers than skill.
(Current Red system allows zergs to do this too, so…?)

Red PK System – What It Tries to Solve:
The PK system is supposed to add consequences to random killing — it discourages griefing by making you think twice before going red. That’s a good thing in theory, especially for casual players or smaller groups.

But right now it’s not quite there:

Zergs go red without caring about the penalties.

XP debt doesn’t do anything yet.

It’s clunky if you’re just trying to contest a spot or pick a fight with someone out in the world.

I think we need both, and here’s why:

Lawless zones offer an open, risk-based PvP space where rare drops and top XP can be contested without worrying about gear dropping on death. These areas can be high-value, high-conflict zones that create good content organically.

The PK system should exist for personal grudges, high-stakes ganks, or flex PvP — but not be the only option to engage in open-world combat/contest spawns/mats

Ideas for Balance:
Keep a few lawless areas — especially in the ocean or at key choke points between nodes, and maybe certain POIs/side dungeons?

Consider scaling spawn value or adding diminishing returns for zerging lawless areas. Or something. (Death to zergs.)

Tune the PK system so going red is a real choice, not just a mild inconvenience.

Give high-value item drops (like Protector’s Pride or similar) a natural home in lawless zones — make them worth fighting for without needing a war declaration or flagging up red.

TL;DR
If the PK system were truly balanced and meaningful, maybe lawless zones wouldn’t be necessary — but right now, they add fun, risk, and variety to open-world PvP. We just need systems in place to avoid zone-locking and make sure smaller groups still have a shot.

Not being able to contest spawns like Protector’s Pride other then (do more dmg forehead) is very annoying when I know I can wipe the floor with the people "contesting", they are just multi-boxing and many of them XD . This is just an example of a high value item/mount that is not really contestable without going Red and risking gear dropping on death because it is not located within a lawless zone.... I would rather fight a group of 40 for a spawn then not be able to fight a multiboxing camper, at least the 40 players are killable and If I bring my own raid we can then fight over the spawn point without much risk but greater reward?

Currently flagging up on someone and hitting them, hoping they will attack back just isn't it either.

Would love to hear others’ thoughts — do you think lawless zones help or hurt the game overall?

Incase you have not read - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Lawless_zones

Veeshan wrote: »

PvE players constantly trying to change any game that designed for or with PvP in mind in basicly every game that comes along, god forbid a game isnt designed as them as the target audience.

PvP players constantly trying to change any game that designed for or with PvE in mind in basicly every game that comes along, god forbid a game isnt designed as them as the target audience.

Works both ways.

Ashes at its core is supposed to be as much about PvE as PvP. PvP is supposed to be a catalyst for change, but building is all about PvE.

There should be more to build than there is to change, as everything changed needs to first be built - thus Ashes should be PvE first, if we have to assume one comes before the other (I don't, I assume they are of equal importance, just pointing out that if Ashes is primarily one, it has to be the one that builds, not the one that changes).

The current state of the game is due to PvP players/posters whining, not PvE players/posters.

The notion in the OP - lawless areas with better rewards all around - will just result in those lawless areas being all about bringing as many people you can and demolishing said lawless areas. That is what any game like Ashes with that content will become.

Realistically, all that needs to be done is the threshold for dropping gear when killed while corrupt needs to be raised a small amount. If players know they can kill one or two players before they risk losing gear, those precious PvP players that don't want that risk should still be able to PvP.

Personally, I think they should stop being so precious, but that is just me. PvP players are such whiners.

I'm truly saddened by the fact that as time goes on, I expect we're going to see more and more push for Ashes to be more like this.

"I hate being right."

Every single datapoint I have from every single game that tries to appeal with features that aren't focused on PvP and then provides more 'Lawless Area' style gameplay is that everything goes to shit within 3... MAYBE 4 months.

Except Throne and Liberty, ofc, where you can watch the outcomes of their mistakes within a week or two since the playerbase is large enough to actually see the trends quickly.

So I'll offer the data from that one.

Adding a Lawless Area with a time limit, that was absolutely optional to go to even economically in most ways, plus an item that you could buy to recharge your time (started at 6h weekly) resulted in large guild/group domination of areas.

To put that in perspective, PvP players with 'too much time' literally spent economic progress (which they genuinely didn't make that much of after a while since the price of most easy drops from that zone tanked, as they also would in an Ashes-style economy, even faster) to just keep PvP-ing.

Whether their intent was to lock down the zones or not is not relevant. The explicit aim of giving the time limit was to do a sort of 'soft matchmaking'. Eventually the dominant groups would run out of time and leave, particularly if they were all 'having fun fighting each other' they would be more likely to leave at similar times. This did not happen. I feel that most L2 players could have told them this would not happen. They have since removed the ability to 'Buy more time', which adds a nice soft downward pressure on the problem, but the perceptive outcome lingers (less PvP-casuals willing to engage with the content).

Lawless zones in Ashes are exactly the equivalent of this, but with no real cost, and automatic economic progression that isn't subject to the drag that TL has built into it. I am 100% against the colossal design mistake of 'adding a rewarding Lawless area that is always accessible/always Lawless' in Ashes of Creation.

indeed , its so damn bad