Pvper are locust and Trolls

2

Comments

  • Seems like some of the community here feels that ANY "random" PVP is griefing. That doesn't leave room for players to be bandits, robbers, highway men, etc... <---These are interesting(for some) roles to play in the world as a whole. They make the setting realistic and semi dangerous. I believe that Intrepid WANTS some of this activity to help enliven the world. What use bounty hunters and the mechanics for it? What use a corruption system otherwise, etc...?

    This type of play isn't really considered griefing. Let's get our heads around that concept first and foremost.

    Sure griefing is poorly defined and usually falls to the judgment of the player getting sacked, but getting killed and looted of the rare berries that you pick is not griefing by a larger standard! Griefing is repeated killing of the same players in short periods of time. Griefing is obnoxious chat heckling of players. Camping spawn points and focusing on the same players over and over outside of PVP battles is griefing.

    Just 2 cents from someone that used to detest ALL forms of PVP. I have since come to like group vs. group or hunting bandit PVP. What I call PVP with "meaning".
  • [quote quote=13277]Yea there will be some PKers here that piss you off. Thing is they will be risking their gear the more they grief you. If you are smart you would run around the world with some friends and the few players that like this kind of game play will be killed on sigh every time.

    [/quote]

    LOL, "risking the gear'. Your sig says you have been playing MMO's since 1998 so you already know the loopholes on how this works. I can equip a common sword and run around naked and grief newbies all day and risk nothing because by default the only thing in PVP that matters in an MMO is level + gear and mathematically, (level + no gear) > (no level + no gear). Or even if I have gear, I go kill a bunch of lowbies, turn red, have my friend kill me and get the bounty and my gear, and he just gives me back my own gear and maybe we even split the bounty.
  • [quote quote=14263]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/2/#post-13277" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    Yea there will be some PKers here that piss you off. Thing is they will be risking their gear the more they grief you. If you are smart you would run around the world with some friends and the few players that like this kind of game play will be killed on sigh every time.

    </blockquote>
    LOL, “risking the gear’. Your sig says you have been playing MMO’s since 1998 so you already know the loopholes on how this works. I can equip a common sword and run around naked and grief newbies all day and risk nothing because by default the only thing in PVP that matters in an MMO is level + gear and mathematically, (level + no gear) > (no level + no gear). Or even if I have gear, I go kill a bunch of lowbies, turn red, have my friend kill me and get the bounty and my gear, and he just gives me back my own gear and maybe we even split the bounty.

    [/quote]
    ^^^This^^^ is the typical attitude of the PVP Monster. I am not saying that you are one of those, torsoreaper, or that you plan to play that way. Just that you obviously know how determined players work around or with punishment mechanics.

    Punishment mechanics do curtail some excessive behavior. They do not put an end to all such behavior on their own, however. I doubt that any game that wants random banditry(a good thing for a game and not necessarily griefing)) can stop determined player killers.

    Not trying to scare off any more gentle players here. I am just saying that I hope Intrepid looks closely at how things play out and is ready if their planned deterrents do not work as fully as intended.
  • [quote quote=12812]I have been playing mmo for a very very long time. I started when it was word base, and have seen mmo come and go. Some came to early before content was made and roamed around open spaces. Some that you Level so fast you never see the world, and some you was lucky to see a lvl before the game dies. But one thing i have seen kill MMO more is PVP or should i say Open world PVP. Pvp has its place in areas and battle fields or 1v1 tournaments. Let me explain, ok a new mmo starts you got 3 kinds of players the power lvls the craftsmen and the la la’s. Crafter work long and hard to master their skills and more are long term players. IN games where crafting matters that is. i can remember the first i got all banded armor made by a craft named Longarm it took me 2 months to save the silver to buy it. Its some thing i earned and we always remember. Any ways i was saying then you got the power lvls who what to be the top lvl just to bully low lvls. So they do, the crafter and newbes are the lvls. out collecting wood, ore and other things. here comes o pvper kills him, the crafter gets killed over and over. One day he says fuck this and quits. one player gone. This happens alot and then many more leave soon the pvpers only have themselves. so theys quit end of game. another thing pvp kills is the story debs are so worried about balancing the chrs. And no new story or new stuff for pver to do or they half ass it. bang you lose more. Pvpers are locust cause they just move to a new game and do the same thing again. I have seen it many times over and over and over. i have seen monthly go to free to play cause it dies so fast. some are just bad games but i seem some great games die with no chance cause of pvp. Open world pvp is a plague please give this plague a shot and kill it. ok Trolls lets hear what you got to say. tell me where i spelled something wrong or my grammars wrong please enlighten me. Just my thoughts o la la’s are just the players who play for fun never knowing what they are doing.

    [/quote]

    [quote quote=12812]I have been playing mmo for a very very long time. I started when it was word base, and have seen mmo come and go. Some came to early before content was made and roamed around open spaces. Some that you Level so fast you never see the world, and some you was lucky to see a lvl before the game dies. But one thing i have seen kill MMO more is PVP or should i say Open world PVP. Pvp has its place in areas and battle fields or 1v1 tournaments. Let me explain, ok a new mmo starts you got 3 kinds of players the power lvls the craftsmen and the la la’s. Crafter work long and hard to master their skills and more are long term players. IN games where crafting matters that is. i can remember the first i got all banded armor made by a craft named Longarm it took me 2 months to save the silver to buy it. Its some thing i earned and we always remember. Any ways i was saying then you got the power lvls who what to be the top lvl just to bully low lvls. So they do, the crafter and newbes are the lvls. out collecting wood, ore and other things. here comes o pvper kills him, the crafter gets killed over and over. One day he says fuck this and quits. one player gone. This happens alot and then many more leave soon the pvpers only have themselves. so theys quit end of game. another thing pvp kills is the story debs are so worried about balancing the chrs. And no new story or new stuff for pver to do or they half ass it. bang you lose more. Pvpers are locust cause they just move to a new game and do the same thing again. I have seen it many times over and over and over. i have seen monthly go to free to play cause it dies so fast. some are just bad games but i seem some great games die with no chance cause of pvp. Open world pvp is a plague please give this plague a shot and kill it. ok Trolls lets hear what you got to say. tell me where i spelled something wrong or my grammars wrong please enlighten me. Just my thoughts o la la’s are just the players who play for fun never knowing what they are doing.

    [/quote]

    Please don't bother to play this game. Go stick with WoW, or better yet just play 1 player games on ps4 or xbox.
  • [quote quote=13769]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/#post-12812" rel="nofollow">Rhinosnoring wrote:</a></div>
    I have been playing mmo for a very very long time. I started when it was word base, and have seen mmo come and go. Some came to early before content was made and roamed around open spaces. Some that you Level so fast you never see the world, and some you was lucky to see a lvl before the game dies. But one thing i have seen kill MMO more is PVP or should i say Open world PVP. Pvp has its place in areas and battle fields or 1v1 tournaments. Let me explain, ok a new mmo starts you got 3 kinds of players the power lvls the craftsmen and the la la’s. Crafter work long and hard to master their skills and more are long term players. IN games where crafting matters that is. i can remember the first i got all banded armor made by a craft named Longarm it took me 2 months to save the silver to buy it. Its some thing i earned and we always remember. Any ways i was saying then you got the power lvls who what to be the top lvl just to bully low lvls. So they do, the crafter and newbes are the lvls. out collecting wood, ore and other things. here comes o pvper kills him, the crafter gets killed over and over. One day he says fuck this and quits. one player gone. This happens alot and then many more leave soon the pvpers only have themselves. so theys quit end of game. another thing pvp kills is the story

    </blockquote>
    So you DO realize that this game is completely based around open world PvP and the players shaping the world right? While it may not be your cup of tea many of us who have played ArcheAge truly enjoyed a world that was shaped by the players. The alliances, politics and depth of the player interaction is so great and essential that when you join a guild you truly feel like part of a big team.

    I’ll never forget my first trip across the ocean in ArcheAge. It was a required quest to get your Large Farm design which was basically a required item in the game to progress. This quest entailed you crossing the ocean which was an open PvP zone into the enemy faction’s continent to deliver goods. It was 5 of us crowded all together on 1 clipper with a single Level 50 officer to guide and protect us should we get attacked. I’ll never forget that feeling, we were all so nervous that our palms were sweaty because we were all weighed down with heavy trade packs that severely limited our mobility and besides the driver we were all low level so we’d die instantly if attacked by high level players.

    It was a proximity quest completion so we just had to hit the docks for a drive by and get the hell out of there before anyone saw us. We had the strategy to stay far out from shore until the very last second then veer into the docks to complete the quest and get the hell out of dodge. As soon as we veered toward the dock 3 enemy clippers took off from the shore to gank us and take our packs. It was a hair raising race but we got to the docks before they caught up to us and we all were able to complete the quest. But on our escape one of the enemy clippers hit us with a harpoon and slowed us down so that the other 2 boats caught up and we were swarmed. Our captain survived because he was a tank and they couldn’t DPS him down. He resurrected those of us that died on the boat and didn’t fall into the water and sink and we were actually able to dive down to the ocean floor and recover a couple of the packs that the enemy players left. But over all it was a success. We completed the quest and it was an amazing adrenaline rush.

    THAT’s the kind of game we WANT to play. Some of my best memories were times I’ve been ganked or times I ganked other players or even better when someone tries to rob you but you successfully evade them or fend them off until you hit a safe zone. ArcheAge was such a good game. It was just their Pay to win cash shop, horrible graphics engine that melted GPUs, tab targeting and poor publisher management that killed that game.

    The only thing that is annoying is when a single guild dominates a server for too long. I think having some kind of world apocalypse function that basically resets the game world every year would be a great way to shake things up.

    but many of us love Open world PvP MMOs….we’re just waiting for that perfect one to play. I know that Steven the lead on this game is also a former ArcheAge player and his main complaint was the cash shop…. sooooo I think your post will fall on deaf ears…

    [/quote]

    Good post, except the part about resetting the world every year. Its an open game, if you have a problem with one guild controlling a server for too long, then organize a counter force and do something about it. Have you played L2, before the GoD update? Thats what is game is being crafted after, at least from what I can tell, and my current clan mates that have played with Steve before.
  • [quote quote=14263]<LOL, “risking the gear’. Your sig says you have been playing MMO’s since 1998 so you already know the loopholes on how this works. I can equip a common sword and run around naked and grief newbies all day and risk nothing because by default the only thing in PVP that matters in an MMO is level + gear and mathematically, (level + no gear) > (no level + no gear). Or even if I have gear, I go kill a bunch of lowbies, turn red, have my friend kill me and get the bounty and my gear, and he just gives me back my own gear and maybe we even split the bounty.

    [/quote]

    How low level is someone going to have to be to get killed by a naked toon with a common sword lol.

    You don't have to drop gear if you are red and get killed. The designers just have to make it so you can either drop gear, or your gear just gets destroyed, even if it not equipped but in your inventory. Pk shouldn't be all bad and totally destroy a toon either, it has its place in the game.
  • [quote quote=14263]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/2/#post-13277" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    Yea there will be some PKers here that piss you off. Thing is they will be risking their gear the more they grief you. If you are smart you would run around the world with some friends and the few players that like this kind of game play will be killed on sigh every time.

    </blockquote>
    LOL, “risking the gear’. Your sig says you have been playing MMO’s since 1998 so you already know the loopholes on how this works. I can equip a common sword and run around naked and grief newbies all day and risk nothing because by default the only thing in PVP that matters in an MMO is level + gear and mathematically, (level + no gear) > (no level + no gear). Or even if I have gear, I go kill a bunch of lowbies, turn red, have my friend kill me and get the bounty and my gear, and he just gives me back my own gear and maybe we even split the bounty.

    [/quote]

    Yea and in UO if you did run around naked you didnt grief anyone unless their skill were low. That is why they added Trammel. Which worked well. Back in those days no one came up with any real preventive systems because well MMORPG game design was in its infancy stage.

    Today you can have systems that are heavily punishing that will keep people from PKing except the most hardcore PKer. I can tell you that if designed right that PKers are not going to just kill Random people because if their stats are diminished to the point a level 1 can beat them they will not be griefing players. YES the more corruption you get the less health, Mana and other stats you will have. If done right, for example If I kill 3 Level 1s as a level 30, I should get so much corruption that it will take 20+ times of getting killed before the corruption is off, ALSO my stats should be diminished down to a level 1 and anything on me will drop.

    Making someones stats drop so far will keep them from greifing. If a level 30 is so weak you as a level 5 can kill them because their corruption and take their high end gear which they cannot take off when they have corruption. How much do you think people will go around greifing.

    Also if you are naive enough to think that the developers will not make it so painful for PKers if they want to grief people you are wrong. The Developers already said they will watch this system closely but they still want to make sure there are PKers out in the world. Risk vs Reward.

    If that is not for you then do not play. I am and have been mostly a PVEer in MMORPGs but I do like PVP like what they are adding into Ashes because it is not the standard PVP.
  • [quote quote=14281]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14263" rel="nofollow">torsoreaper wrote:</a></div>
    <blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/2/#post-13277" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    Yea there will be some PKers here that piss you off. Thing is they will be risking their gear the more they grief you. If you are smart you would run around the world with some friends and the few players that like this kind of game play will be killed on sigh every time.

    </blockquote>
    LOL, “risking the gear’. Your sig says you have been playing MMO’s since 1998 so you already know the loopholes on how this works. I can equip a common sword and run around naked and grief newbies all day and risk nothing because by default the only thing in PVP that matters in an MMO is level + gear and mathematically, (level + no gear) > (no level + no gear). Or even if I have gear, I go kill a bunch of lowbies, turn red, have my friend kill me and get the bounty and my gear, and he just gives me back my own gear and maybe we even split the bounty.

    </blockquote>
    ^^^This^^^ is the typical attitude of the PVP Monster. I am not saying that you are one of those, torsoreaper, or that you plan to play that way. Just that you obviously know how determined players work around or with punishment mechanics.

    Punishment mechanics do curtail some excessive behavior. They do not put an end to all such behavior on their own, however. I doubt that any game that wants random banditry(a good thing for a game and not necessarily griefing)) can stop determined player killers.

    Not trying to scare off any more gentle players here. I am just saying that I hope Intrepid looks closely at how things play out and is ready if their planned deterrents do not work as fully as intended.

    [/quote]

    I hate to say it but The Developers made it clear that Grieving will be punished very heavily in the game. They will make mechanics to where most PKers will not PK just anyone. They will look for people who are gathering resources to make killing someone worth it.
  • [quote quote=14323]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14281" rel="nofollow">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>
    <blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14263" rel="nofollow">torsoreaper wrote:</a></div>
    <blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/2/#post-13277" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    Yea there will be some PKers here that piss you off. Thing is they will be risking their gear the more they grief you. If you are smart you would run around the world with some friends and the few players that like this kind of game play will be killed on sigh every time.

    </blockquote>
    LOL, “risking the gear’. Your sig says you have been playing MMO’s since 1998 so you already know the loopholes on how this works. I can equip a common sword and run around naked and grief newbies all day and risk nothing because by default the only thing in PVP that matters in an MMO is level + gear and mathematically, (level + no gear) > (no level + no gear). Or even if I have gear, I go kill a bunch of lowbies, turn red, have my friend kill me and get the bounty and my gear, and he just gives me back my own gear and maybe we even split the bounty.

    </blockquote>
    ^^^This^^^ is the typical attitude of the PVP Monster. I am not saying that you are one of those, torsoreaper, or that you plan to play that way. Just that you obviously know how determined players work around or with punishment mechanics.

    Punishment mechanics do curtail some excessive behavior. They do not put an end to all such behavior on their own, however. I doubt that any game that wants random banditry(a good thing for a game and not necessarily griefing)) can stop determined player killers.

    Not trying to scare off any more gentle players here. I am just saying that I hope Intrepid looks closely at how things play out and is ready if their planned deterrents do not work as fully as intended.

    </blockquote>
    I hate to say it but The Developers made it clear that Grieving will be punished very heavily in the game. They will make mechanics to where most PKers will not PK just anyone. They will look for people who are gathering resources to make killing someone worth it.

    [/quote]
    Well that is great. I do hope that they can accomplish that. The quest for loot SHOULD be why players kill other players that they randomly come across. It is when they do it over and over to the SAME player that it should be considered a negative thing. Especially in a short period of time. That is when it becomes obvious that they just want to bother someone that they can easily beat.
  • [quote quote=14329]Well that is great. I do hope that they can accomplish that. The quest for loot SHOULD be why players kill other players that they randomly come across. It is when they do it over and over to the SAME player that it should be considered a negative thing. Especially in a short period of time. That is when it becomes obvious that they just want to bother someone that they can easily beat.[/quote]

    They will make it so that killing the same player over and over is useless and will be frowned upon. Hell the stat decrease the more and more a PKer kills players will reduce their ability to defend themselves. If you are smart enough you wait until they are such low level then attack and kill them after they attack you take all their stuff and your stuff back.

    For example if I am mining and You PK me I lose a percent of my mats I gather. You keep killing me you get so much corruption that your stats drop so low that I can 1 shot you, and all your gear drops plus what you took from me. The more corruption you get the more stuff you will drop. Add to that with the weight in game you might end up in a position you cannot move fast because you have too much stuff on you.
    '
    If done right yea you might get killed once maybe twice for your mats than that player moves on. I dont see people being too dickish in this game like some older MMORPGS like UO.
  • [quote quote=14329]Well that is great. I do hope that they can accomplish that. The quest for loot SHOULD be why players kill other players that they randomly come across. It is when they do it over and over to the SAME player that it should be considered a negative thing. Especially in a short period of time. That is when it becomes obvious that they just want to bother someone that they can easily beat.[/quote]

    Dont get me wrong there will be some level of PKers out in the world. The problem is for them if they go overboard they will risk more. So picking their target is going to be more common than grieving. That is risk vs reward. thats why I plan to take my friends with me when I go to gather resources. Because if 1 Red shows up and there are 3 of us we will kill him on sight.
  • [quote quote=14311]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14263" rel="nofollow">torsoreaper wrote:</a></div>
    <blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/2/#post-13277" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    Yea there will be some PKers here that piss you off. Thing is they will be risking their gear the more they grief you. If you are smart you would run around the world with some friends and the few players that like this kind of game play will be killed on sigh every time.

    </blockquote>
    LOL, “risking the gear’. Your sig says you have been playing MMO’s since 1998 so you already know the loopholes on how this works. I can equip a common sword and run around naked and grief newbies all day and risk nothing because by default the only thing in PVP that matters in an MMO is level + gear and mathematically, (level + no gear) > (no level + no gear). Or even if I have gear, I go kill a bunch of lowbies, turn red, have my friend kill me and get the bounty and my gear, and he just gives me back my own gear and maybe we even split the bounty.

    </blockquote>
    Yea and in UO if you did run around naked you didnt grief anyone unless their skill were low. That is why they added Trammel. Which worked well. Back in those days no one came up with any real preventive systems because well MMORPG game design was in its infancy stage.

    Today you can have systems that are heavily punishing that will keep people from PKing except the most hardcore PKer. I can tell you that if designed right that PKers are not going to just kill Random people because if their stats are diminished to the point a level 1 can beat them they will not be griefing players. YES the more corruption you get the less health, Mana and other stats you will have. If done right, for example If I kill 3 Level 1s as a level 30, I should get so much corruption that it will take 20+ times of getting killed before the corruption is off, ALSO my stats should be diminished down to a level 1 and anything on me will drop.

    Making someones stats drop so far will keep them from greifing. If a level 30 is so weak you as a level 5 can kill them because their corruption and take their high end gear which they cannot take off when they have corruption. How much do you think people will go around greifing.

    Also if you are naive enough to think that the developers will not make it so painful for PKers if they want to grief people you are wrong. The Developers already said they will watch this system closely but they still want to make sure there are PKers out in the world. Risk vs Reward.

    If that is not for you then do not play. I am and have been mostly a PVEer in MMORPGs but I do like PVP like what they are adding into Ashes because it is not the standard PVP.

    [/quote]

    Not a fact bearing authority on what happened to UO or a timeline for it. I played UO from the start and after a bit I left. First time I came back they were trying all kinds of negative rep deterrents, including jail time since the RPK was RAMPANT. The last time I came back, they had divided everything with Trammel and Felucca. THAT seemed like an empty wilderness. One deadly and one too safe. Not sure but I suspect that it helped UO fall way far from a populated MMO.

    The thing is, without bandits and stuff like them, there is just about zero risk to gathering resources. That really puts a strain on an economy in all sorts of ways... besides being a bit boring for all parties which really does lead, sooner, to wandering MMO of the month syndrome, IMO anyway.
  • First off i dont know that you can classify a pvper

    I mean i love realm combat ( DAoC) and even AA Sieges. Those are pvp events are fun. Open world newb ganking ( which happens in all open world pvp games ) is unavoidable. I like how the system here is designed to get rid of them.

    That said it wont last long. Back in AC we had death items because we figured out the highest vendor priced items dropped when you died so we had expensive items that were non-critical spell components for spells i didn't even have if i remember right.. They will do the same thing here.

    Now there are benefits ( call this making lemon-aid out of lemons) to those asshat gankers we all know and hate.

    1. Guild recruitment.

    There is no better way to deter an asshat ganker like the realization that 250 other people are going to KOS him/his guild for attacking you. A guild who then protects there members builds a reputation to attract more members being able to pick the best from them . So that asshat ganker just helping us build better stronger guilds

    2. Node Residency

    A Lord or Mayor who wants a stronger node will get patrols and bounty hunters going to remove gankers to attract more and better adventurers , crafters and merchants.

    3. Bot / Alt / Gold Farmer Removal

    One thing gankers love is basically attacking anyone who cant fight back. So you can bet they will be killing farmbots as fast as they can find them. Saddly the system doesn't reward them for this yet..
  • [quote quote=14348]Not a fact bearing authority on what happened to UO or a timeline for it. I played UO from the start and after a bit I left. First time I came back they were trying all kinds of negative rep deterrents, including jail time since the RPK was RAMPANT. The last time I came back, they had divided everything with Trammel and Felucca. THAT seemed like an empty wilderness. One deadly and one too safe. Not sure but I suspect that it helped UO fall way far from a populated MMO.

    The thing is, without bandits and stuff like them, there is just about zero risk to gathering resources. That really puts a strain on an economy in all sorts of ways… besides being a bit boring for all parties which really does lead, sooner, to wandering MMO of the month syndrome, IMO anyway.[/quote]

    I too was jumping in and out of UO before Trammel. It was fun before but the problem was nearly everyone was killing everyone at all times.

    In the end I think Ashes will be a lot better with keeping the needless PKing down. Now that does not mean the core PVP will not happen, o that will happen like attacking caravans and the sieges but the needless grieving will be what they will try to reduce.
  • [quote quote=14365]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14348" rel="nofollow">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>
    Not a fact bearing authority on what happened to UO or a timeline for it. I played UO from the start and after a bit I left. First time I came back they were trying all kinds of negative rep deterrents, including jail time since the RPK was RAMPANT. The last time I came back, they had divided everything with Trammel and Felucca. THAT seemed like an empty wilderness. One deadly and one too safe. Not sure but I suspect that it helped UO fall way far from a populated MMO.

    The thing is, without bandits and stuff like them, there is just about zero risk to gathering resources. That really puts a strain on an economy in all sorts of ways… besides being a bit boring for all parties which really does lead, sooner, to wandering MMO of the month syndrome, IMO anyway.
    </blockquote>
    I too was jumping in and out of UO before Trammel. It was fun before but the problem was nearly everyone was killing everyone at all times.

    In the end I think Ashes will be a lot better with keeping the needless PKing down. Now that does not mean the core PVP will not happen, o that will happen like attacking caravans and the sieges but the needless grieving will be what they will try to reduce.
    [/quote]

    Shame that MMOs were so young and they didn't yet know that what you really need to do is introduce meaningful PVP into your game and a large part of the problem goes away.
    Meaningful PVP: Territory control(Node Disputes), economic interdiction(Caravans/Resource raiding), small-time banditry(a nec. evil for risk vs reward)
    Give PVPers manageable outlets for what they enjoy too. You won't get the very most hardcore(no restrictions) PVPers or the most hardcore anit-PVPers but you will get more than otherwise from both ends of the spectrum.
  • I have to have PvP in an MMO. Not because I want to roam around the world ganking lowbies, that's not something I'm ever interested in. The bottom line is that nothing can replace the adrenaline rush you get while moving high-value resources through a dangerous area. Only real people who want what you have can provide that element of danger. To me, if that risk isn't there then the game isn't worth playing. It seems the way this game is designed it will give potential bandits one shot at getting your stuff, and then they'll have to back off. I've not seen any system that mitigates grieving and unnecessary ganking like this. From what has been described, I think what they have in mind may provide the best PvP control mechanism the MMO genre has seen yet.

    Selos
  • [quote quote=14172]<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/irobot/" rel="nofollow">@irobot</a>
    If you come across cheaters in PvE…. of course you’d have a reason to hate on them.
    An many people do.

    My point was to identify why PvP players have a bad reputation.
    It was funny in ESO evryone suspected many players of cheating.
    They come back with the get gud scrub/nub comments.
    Created there posse of google eyed devotees whoe worshipped the ground they walked on.
    Just making it clear they were simply that awesome.

    Then most of those players got banned for cheat engine use and such.
    Leaves a real real bad taste in the mouth, knowing that you was right about them being ‘that’ good all along.
    Many people just crave power over others with an insatiable need to be idolised.

    [/quote]

    See thats the biggest problem in the debate. Those people your describing.. they arent pvpers. In every pvp game Ive ever played those that are considered pvpers have lost. There is always a situation where you will lose no matter your skill level, due to numbers connection issues or just simple miss clicks. The differences between those you describe and actual pvpers is simply the response to that death. they will cheat, talk shit and just make a general asshat of themselves. Id just try and find a way to fight back better next time. Some of the most fun Ive ever had in MMOs ever is in old school UO fighting 2v5 and trying to stay alive and escape and maybe combo down one enemy before getting out alive.

    Thats what pvp is, a rush you cannot get fighting an AI who only responds to any action in one fashion.

    What your describing is the same problem that occurs in many mmos, we called them karma pks in UO, they will only do something to win/anything to win and will never take a risk if it ever, literally ever rears its head.

    Most of the pks and old school pvpers would have the same mindset. Theres no point in griefing new players its more fun to teach them how to duel, how to pvp and maybe see them in a guild war months down the line. Half the time ganking you hah. A game is more fun when there are all types of people present. Saying No PVE or no PVP is a grossly incorrect statement. all types of populations are needed to make the game fun. Some people love to craft. there is nothing wrong with it, and that player may be the one who gets you the sword you would take years to obtain.
  • To all those talking about old UO and trammel, trammel is literally the dagger that killed old UO.

    The massive death fests that occured early on were combatted by actual guilds ingame. Anti guilds were actually the main driving force to create guild wars and less pking of actual players. The problem was that when Origin at the time saw the complaints ingame and on forums they created a heavy handed solution without actual thinking about population and overall game balance. Two seperate populations in which no incentive existed to stay in felucca/trammel only created one thing. The population split in two. People would hound trammel spawns to farm overpopulation certain areas (leading to more complaints about too few mobs and too slow of spawn times) with no ability to combat the constant amount of influx in players. The amount of griefing done in trammel was ludicrously high...People started quitting. The thing is it wasnt pvp players that left in mass exodus early on. It was the hardcore pve crowd, the majority of those who screamed the loudest for trammel left when it entered the scene. After a few additional patches and bugs and general poor decision making a lot of pvp groups left to new games. They would return for factions that came out later and stayed up until the changes to itemization which made UO the new form of diablo.
  • [quote quote=14694]To all those talking about old UO and trammel, trammel is literally the dagger that killed old UO.

    The massive death fests that occured early on were combatted by actual guilds ingame. Anti guilds were actually the main driving force to create guild wars and less pking of actual players. The problem was that when Origin at the time saw the complaints ingame and on forums they created a heavy handed solution without actual thinking about population and overall game balance. Two seperate populations in which no incentive existed to stay in felucca/trammel only created one thing. The population split in two. People would hound trammel spawns to farm overpopulation certain areas (leading to more complaints about too few mobs and too slow of spawn times) with no ability to combat the constant amount of influx in players. The amount of griefing done in trammel was ludicrously high…People started quitting. The thing is it wasnt pvp players that left in mass exodus early on. It was the hardcore pve crowd, the majority of those who screamed the loudest for trammel left when it entered the scene. After a few additional patches and bugs and general poor decision making a lot of pvp groups left to new games. They would return for factions that came out later and stayed up until the changes to itemization which made UO the new form of diablo.

    [/quote]

    Sorry but I disagree with you. Trammel caused UO's population to Double. They went from around 125K subs to 250K subs. That was because people were not getting ganked left right and center. That was because MMORPG were in it's infancy stages and there was no good ideas out except to split the PVE and PVP population. While yes there was so much BS because there were few spawns that people ended up spawn grieving which I did in the shadow Wrym room and in any place I went because I went with a group of friends.

    Now Do I think that is a good solution here. Hell No. The Shit that happened in UO was because as much as you say there were anti griefing groups the fact is I was in one of them and they often killed their own members too. Yea sorry all kinds of dumb ass game play happened.

    The way to go is with a punishing PKing system like they are going with. They just need to make it so most people are not going to PK except the real ass holes.
  • [quote quote=14398]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14365" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    <blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14348" rel="nofollow">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>
    Not a fact bearing authority on what happened to UO or a timeline for it. I played UO from the start and after a bit I left. First time I came back they were trying all kinds of negative rep deterrents, including jail time since the RPK was RAMPANT. The last time I came back, they had divided everything with Trammel and Felucca. THAT seemed like an empty wilderness. One deadly and one too safe. Not sure but I suspect that it helped UO fall way far from a populated MMO.

    The thing is, without bandits and stuff like them, there is just about zero risk to gathering resources. That really puts a strain on an economy in all sorts of ways… besides being a bit boring for all parties which really does lead, sooner, to wandering MMO of the month syndrome, IMO anyway.

    </blockquote>
    I too was jumping in and out of UO before Trammel. It was fun before but the problem was nearly everyone was killing everyone at all times.

    In the end I think Ashes will be a lot better with keeping the needless PKing down. Now that does not mean the core PVP will not happen, o that will happen like attacking caravans and the sieges but the needless grieving will be what they will try to reduce.

    </blockquote>
    Shame that MMOs were so young and they didn’t yet know that what you really need to do is introduce meaningful PVP into your game and a large part of the problem goes away.
    Meaningful PVP: Territory control(Node Disputes), economic interdiction(Caravans/Resource raiding), small-time banditry(a nec. evil for risk vs reward)
    Give PVPers manageable outlets for what they enjoy too. You won’t get the very most hardcore(no restrictions) PVPers or the most hardcore anit-PVPers but you will get more than otherwise from both ends of the spectrum.

    [/quote]

    Yea with MMORPGS having matured from the days of UO I think we can come up with a good way to keep the worst end of PVP to a minimum without changing the core game. We could take the ArcheAge idea of player Prisons as well for when a player is killed that they have to stay in prison for X amount of hours for each kill. Add to that we should have paid bounties on players who PK so a player like me can pay an NPC Bounty Hunter that will allow a player to take that Bounty and kill said player.

    If you do these things there will be fewer players that will do PKing because they will not want to deal with the consequences. I remember in ArcheAge players would bitch that they would be in Jail for 20 hours. Well if players dont want to deal with that then they shouldnt PK.

    Also if they keep gear flat like SWG gear was, there will be no gear grinding that will give PKer's an advantage over other players. Add to that with the stat decreases the chance that a PKer will be killed by a weaker player (Not saying a low level character) because their stats will be reduced so much that the player fighting back has the advantage. Then the PKer dies and goes to jail for 10 hours. If they also lost their gear, loot and gold it becomes a losing proposition for these players. Again some people might really like that but it will be a very small handful of players per server.
  • My ideal PVP system would just be that no matter what the level, when you attack eachother you are equal weighted in stats. So you basically have PVE stats and PVP stats. That way if someone is lvl 50 and he thinks "I'm gonna gank this lowbie", even if I'm lvl 5 but I am more skillful at the actual game, maybe I kill him. That's the same way it works in League of Legends, CS:GO, DOTA, Battlefield, etc.. It's about skill, not "i played for a long time so I have xyz gear".

    This way you still retain that feeling of danger but you don't have to worry about griefing as much because people can't just repeatedly one shot you.
  • [quote quote=15815]My ideal PVP system would just be that no matter what the level, when you attack eachother you are equal weighted in stats. So you basically have PVE stats and PVP stats. That way if someone is lvl 50 and he thinks “I’m gonna gank this lowbie”, even if I’m lvl 5 but I am more skillful at the actual game, maybe I kill him. That’s the same way it works in League of Legends, CS:GO, DOTA, Battlefield, etc.. It’s about skill, not “i played for a long time so I have xyz gear”.

    This way you still retain that feeling of danger but you don’t have to worry about griefing as much because people can’t just repeatedly one shot you.

    [/quote]

    Good ideia!
  • [quote quote=14905]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14398" rel="nofollow">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>
    <blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14365" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    <blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvper-are-locust-and-trolls/page/3/#post-14348" rel="nofollow">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>
    Not a fact bearing authority on what happened to UO or a timeline for it. I played UO from the start and after a bit I left. First time I came back they were trying all kinds of negative rep deterrents, including jail time since the RPK was RAMPANT. The last time I came back, they had divided everything with Trammel and Felucca. THAT seemed like an empty wilderness. One deadly and one too safe. Not sure but I suspect that it helped UO fall way far from a populated MMO.

    The thing is, without bandits and stuff like them, there is just about zero risk to gathering resources. That really puts a strain on an economy in all sorts of ways… besides being a bit boring for all parties which really does lead, sooner, to wandering MMO of the month syndrome, IMO anyway.

    </blockquote>
    I too was jumping in and out of UO before Trammel. It was fun before but the problem was nearly everyone was killing everyone at all times.

    In the end I think Ashes will be a lot better with keeping the needless PKing down. Now that does not mean the core PVP will not happen, o that will happen like attacking caravans and the sieges but the needless grieving will be what they will try to reduce.

    </blockquote>
    Shame that MMOs were so young and they didn’t yet know that what you really need to do is introduce meaningful PVP into your game and a large part of the problem goes away.
    Meaningful PVP: Territory control(Node Disputes), economic interdiction(Caravans/Resource raiding), small-time banditry(a nec. evil for risk vs reward)
    Give PVPers manageable outlets for what they enjoy too. You won’t get the very most hardcore(no restrictions) PVPers or the most hardcore anit-PVPers but you will get more than otherwise from both ends of the spectrum.

    </blockquote>
    Yea with MMORPGS having matured from the days of UO I think we can come up with a good way to keep the worst end of PVP to a minimum without changing the core game. We could take the ArcheAge idea of player Prisons as well for when a player is killed that they have to stay in prison for X amount of hours for each kill. Add to that we should have paid bounties on players who PK so a player like me can pay an NPC Bounty Hunter that will allow a player to take that Bounty and kill said player.

    If you do these things there will be fewer players that will do PKing because they will not want to deal with the consequences. I remember in ArcheAge players would bitch that they would be in Jail for 20 hours. Well if players dont want to deal with that then they shouldnt PK.

    Also if they keep gear flat like SWG gear was, there will be no gear grinding that will give PKer’s an advantage over other players. Add to that with the stat decreases the chance that a PKer will be killed by a weaker player (Not saying a low level character) because their stats will be reduced so much that the player fighting back has the advantage. Then the PKer dies and goes to jail for 10 hours. If they also lost their gear, loot and gold it becomes a losing proposition for these players. Again some people might really like that but it will be a very small handful of players per server.

    [/quote]

    Its a tough thing to balance. If you(the developer) want some random-bandit like PVP in your game, it has to be a rewarding way to play somehow and it can't be so punitive that keeps reasonable players from filling that role. Too rough of consequences and no one or only the very most bottom of the barrel ganker fans will do it.
    I am not a big fan of Bounty systems if they can be gamed and they usually can be gamed.
  • Oh also, IMO(like everything) I feel that the mistake that all game designers are still making is counting on the players themselves to keep the "naughty" PVP in check. I have played many games in which that was the expectation and they have always dwindled to the point that only wolves remain before they close the doors.
  • AoC is counting on the Corruption mechanic to keep PKers in check.
    But, really, PKers can use monster tokens to slake their bloodthirst.
  • There is actually something that troubles me (thanks for the recent posts by the way. Very informative).

    The other side of the problem is also with the pain trains and zerg balls.
    You know, you may be solo or a small group doing crafting and stuff and the 30+ players just steam through and destroy anyone and anything.

    Corruption is punitive.......but its only really punitive 1v1.
    When you have a 30v1 situation, that corruption would be shared across all 30.
    Does anyone consider such Xv1+ death trains might be a major issue ?
    And would they encourage even bigger death trains to counter them ?
    Would we have the snowball effect where 1v1 and smaller size groups simply cant exist any more ?

    I worry about the numbers is king issue.

    I would rather see 100x 1v1 than 1x 100v100 balls. Perhaps thats being selfish.
  • In 30v1 situation, everyone who attacks would probably get the same amount of corruption as they would if they attacked alone. In darkfall, if you hit a friendly and they died within a certain time frame, you would take a 100 alignment hit. it didn't matter how many people hit him, everyone would take the same 100 alignment hit and this is how i'd think they would do it in ashes.

    In my experience of other open world pvp games, 1v1s will always happen. The threat of being zerged wont prevent people from running out and doing there own thing. Yes, fights can grow into big skirmishes but things always calm down and people return to there personal objectives. I actually hope to see more people forming groups for protection as socialization is always healthy in a MMO.

    I like all sizes of fights. Part of the reason i like open world pvp is how fights can vary. I have always found large scale fights painful in tab target games but i'll wait and see what their hybrid system does for it.
  • You can't kill over and over in this game. I suggest you visit the <a href="https://discord.gg/Ug67nFX">Official Discord</a> and the <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/14luppZ3Ub8jmcw_aK65QWxYY4xa8qAo9zRfpYWBxOXE/edit#heading=h.pxqmubh58h1n">Known Information document</a> which is managed by members of the community.

    There will be a system in place called Corruption. No one who isn't wanting to lose their gear will just troll and PK everyone. Why? Because it will put them further behind than you will be if they kill you 10 times.
  • [quote quote=15952]In 30v1 situation, everyone who attacks would probably get the same amount of corruption as they would if they attacked alone. In darkfall, if you hit a friendly and they died within a certain time frame, you would take a 100 alignment hit. it didn’t matter how many people hit him, everyone would take the same 100 alignment hit and this is how i’d think they would do it in ashes.

    In my experience of other open world pvp games, 1v1s will always happen. The threat of being zerged wont prevent people from running out and doing there own thing. Yes, fights can grow into big skirmishes but things always calm down and people return to there personal objectives. I actually hope to see more people forming groups for protection as socialization is always healthy in a MMO.

    I like all sizes of fights. Part of the reason i like open world pvp is how fights can vary. I have always found large scale fights painful in tab target games but i’ll wait and see what their hybrid system does for it.

    [/quote]

    If they did indeed corrupt everyone who tagged the player before death, that would be perfect

    Dont get me wrong about me being anti group warfare.
    I just dont want to see the game devolve into mindless AoE spam, where groups just carpet bomb everything, instead of giving a damn about who and what they are actually hitting.
    Perhaps the only way to fix that is enemy AoE healing and friendly AoE fire.
    But then you get friendly fire griefing issues :|
  • Actually the 'all tagged' corruption system, give some interesting scenarios.

    Imagine a group of anti-war healers....I know right.....bare with me ;)

    So this group of 30 healers confront a group of 30 mindless zergers.
    All players that tag a player before death get corrupted.
    So if they AoE slaughter that group of 30, every healer that dies.. gives every zerger 1x corruption.
    So everyone of those zergers, will instantly be faced with 30x normal corruption.

    Now I would expect 30x normal corruption to come with one hell of a penalty.
    So these healer groups could actually turn the tide of battle in open warfare.
    This means you would be absolutely stupid to be spamming AoE wrecklessly.
    So we automatically fix the AoE spam problem.

    :D
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