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The Corruption system and Improvements to it

2

Comments

  • <blockquote>
    Another control that is often denied players is control over citizenship. I think that we may have that for developed Nodes but I don’t have a link. When players control who can and who can’t be a citizen of a “Node” AND it makes a difference in quality of play to citizens, that tool becomes a mighty weapon to keep citizens under control.
    </blockquote>


    I was thinking of a city/node wide vote (citizens only of course) to kick out certain toxic players. (this would have to be very hard to achieve though to avoid it being abused) Also this 100% cant fall into the hand of city leaders to avoid a type of tyrant power.
    My biggest fear in suggesting this; is my fear of it being used on me lol.
  • Sorry I strayed off topic there, Lexlocke.

    To improve on what we know about the corruption system so far, I would like to see the following adjustments, which I think are fair to the occasional need to knock that flower picker from your spot to deciding to rob that occasional ore carrying miner to just a random blowing off of steam.

    [u]First: [/u]
    1. The system needs to protect players from random player killers as much as is possible while still allowing for some to exist. It needs to be an effective deterrent for excesses.
    2. The corruption system needs to be strong but also permissive enough that Bandits/Pirates/Highwaymen can have a reasonable experience. There needs to be an "allowance" of sorts, meaning an allowed amount of "kills" probably per day, that are fairly easy to work off.
    3. If not kills then how about a "yield option" in which the target can surrender some amount that he/she is carrying and the Bandit type can accept that and move on without having to kill the target?
    [u]Second:[/u]
    1. The flagging system should never prevent a noncombatant flagged player the agency to move his flag to combatant by striking back at an attacker. It currently does prevent that in some cases. The target's finale flag should the measure of his penalties if he dies.
    2. An attack should measure any penalties at the end and to the ATTACKER only, based off of the target's FIRST flag at the start of the combat. This keeps noncombatant as a useful flag to fly, considering that it is a full penalty to die as a non combatant.
    3. The first attack against a noncombatant should either earn a small corruption score immediately OR should trigger a countdown during which if the target dies, even if attacked only once, the attacker takes the full penalties applicable for the kill.

    This is my suggestion. Probably needs a bit of polish, but whatta you gonna do?
  • "3. The first attack against a noncombatant should either earn a small corruption score immediately OR should trigger a countdown during which if the target dies, even if attacked only once, the attacker takes the full penalties applicable for the kill."

    Scary business here, in BDO they have karma bombing where the PvE player just runs back to the hunting spot and makes themselves annoying to their attacker so that they will kill them over and over and lose their good karma and be in danger of turning red (PK status). Getting good karma back takes a while so players that intended to kill someone for a hunting spot eventually find that they are only hurting themselves.

    In the end, none of this is particularly helpful to the community. The reality is that the days these devs are trying to restore are long gone. I remember when gaming was in its infancy and people really banded together. In those days a "murder" of a player was as shocking in the game world as it was in the real world...it just wasn't something that you do. On top of all that, people used to role-play. Now days its about min/max and being the "best". Players aren't playing with each other, they are trying to win the video game. I have some serious doubts that we will see those old days ever again.
  • As I have said before and I will ask now: How long should a player get away with such antics before they are just banned? They obviously do not want to play within the probably rules, such as: Do not play in a way that is annoying to players purposefully. Or SOMETHING along those lines...

    And I will add that the only realistic goal for a game developer that wants to include PVP and some really random PVP is to lessen occurrences of it. All that they really can do.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-corruption-system-and-improvements-to-it/#post-21091">Mordencaine wrote:</a></div>But Bringslite, imagine you are fighting some PvE mobs to level, minding your own business. I pop out of stealth and shoot you from range with my bow and get your health super low and then just run away. The mobs you were fighting get the last hit and you die. I get to rinse and repeat because I didn’t take any corruption since I didn’t get the killing blow on you. I can move on to the next guy, or I can wait and see if you come back and do it again.

    Abusing the system like this has been done for ages in other games. Heck I’ve done it myself to people before I realized it was bad. Especially in games that offer no penalties for PvP deaths. Griefers, by their very definition, find ways to ruin other gamers’ experience in game with the intent of making them mad to the point of quitting.

    </blockquote>

    This ^

    I also agree with your old school experiences, but these days it's who can be the biggest, baddest AH ever, and everyone is rushing to end game. Sigh* I miss those earlier times.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-corruption-system-and-improvements-to-it/page/2/#post-21211">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>As I have said before and I will ask now: How long should a player get away with such antics before they are just banned? They obviously do not want to play within the probably rules, such as: Do not play in a way that is annoying to players purposefully. Or SOMETHING along those lines…

    And I will add that the only realistic goal for a game developer that wants to include PVP and some really random PVP is to lessen occurrences of it. All that they really can do.

    </blockquote>

    Banning for "toxic" behavior as everyone calls it now, or as anyone who has played any older mmos called it just being a jackass should not be a bannable offense. will it get you on a KOS list and possibly hunted down by guilds and players alilke. Definately.

    But the simple truth is this, there will always be griefers on the internet. People whose sole form of fun is harming or slowing the fun of others. Its juvenile, but it exists. The thing is the solution to such people should never ever...EVER.. be a dev enforced system. You have a guild full of these people? Hunt them down. make it so there entire day is dodging constant pvp and inevitable death.

    If people are so worried about corruption and overworld PVP they really should relax and wait until alpha actually occurs and systems can be tested. People will quickly see corruption should only be on kill, not on flag. Or woe for any PvE primary player that is a mage and throws AOEs.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-corruption-system-and-improvements-to-it/page/2/#post-21211">Bringslite wrote:</a></div>As I have said before and I will ask now: How long should a player get away with such antics before they are just banned? They obviously do not want to play within the probably rules, such as: Do not play in a way that is annoying to players purposefully. Or SOMETHING along those lines…

    And I will add that the only realistic goal for a game developer that wants to include PVP and some really random PVP is to lessen occurrences of it. All that they really can do.

    </blockquote>

    All games have griefers, players who sole joy is to slow if not diminish the fun of others. Granted its an annoyance but the solution to such asshatery should never be a ban unless the actions of the griefer circumvents game mechanics (hacking a character, being invulnerable etc). Community response should always be the answer to large contingencies. Dont like someone? Are they a horrible horrible pk? Hunt them down and kill them constantly.

    No Dev enforced system will EVER remove all griefing. A ton of people tie griefing to pking when that is simply not true. Sorry the majority of people who grief will spend just as much time if not more harrassing through text, following others and trying to ruin pve/farm spots.

    In the end wait until alpha before condemning the system currently in place. Do I like all of the ideas set forth? No... combat effectiveness should not decrease with corruption. Item loss is already a great incentive to hunt pks, having them be unable to defend themselves will be counter intuitive to the bounty hunting system set in place. (simply put pks will get zerged)
  • You guys are all going off on how to change corruption based on the assumption that it won't sufficiently do it's job. The problem is, you've made false assumptions about what "its job" is. The purpose of corruption is not to act as a protective bubble against PVP, its to stop you from getting spawn-camped and killed repeatedly and griefed. Which it will do just fine in its current form.
  • I don't think that everyone agrees with you on that so you'll likely see discussion about it. The cool thing though is that you can ignore it if you want.
  • Here is a Video of the Flagging system.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojCv0wS9uXQ

    It has nothing about healing and how AOE works. My guess is AOE will not hit anyone flagged as PVP if you are flagged as a green. The same with AOE Healing. But if you directly heal a PVP person you will flag as PVP.
  • Will there be anything in place to stop people from killing people outside of a dungeon of some sorts or a city?
    The corruption mechanics/flagging system is a very heavy handed deterrent to outright PK'ing, and will sufficiently reduce the occurrence of PK'ing, though we will obviously playtest this

    Will there be systems in place to prevent PvE minded players from being mindlessly slaughtered by PvPers?
    Yes.
  • I don't understand why Dygz continues to make a distinction from crafters and PvE'ers. We can just drop the whole PvP vs PvE thing while in this thread. We are strictly talking about preventing one player from going on a mass murdering spree against the community that may or may not be under leveled, under geared and under experienced.

    Ok, I have read some really good stuff in here. I think the highlight was daily kills. They goal is not to prevent someone from PKing someone else and I like the idea of having an allotted "assassination" pool as it were. The game is going to allow for an assassin role as well as a guild that supports that kind of espionage. As such if you, as the Devs, were to limit such a pool or increase the detriment of going beyond the "normal" killing amount that would increase the value of said services. I think that would be awesome.

    As far as what was written by Dygz about what we know etc..... We only know what they have written and what they have written was written by humans so all of that could easily have been taken out of context or not explained in its fullest. We know that. Moving on.

    I do agree with Phocus, the corruption system does feel like it will get the job done. For all those people out there who are afraid of getting PKed by blood hungry savages, keep in mind those savages will also love to be bounty hunters to hunt the corrupted. Its going to be interesting watching that community eat itself if it gets large enough.

    Thanks for reading,
    Lex
  • Because Crafters don't really fight the environment. PvE Adventures like to fight mobs and NPCs and will also enjoy blowing stuff up.
    Crafters will be focused on maximixing their Artisan skills while PvErs wil be focused on maximizing their Adventurer skills.
    PvErs just don't want to fight avatars.
  • [quote quote=21689]Because Crafters don’t really fight the environment. PvE Adventures like to fight mobs and NPCs and will also enjoy blowing stuff up.
    Crafters will be focused on maximixing their Artisan skills while PvErs wil be focused on maximizing their Adventurer skills.
    PvErs just don’t want to fight avatars.

    [/quote]

    You are making a couple assumptions:
    1) Crafters never have to level their characters in the real world
    2) These crafters that you are referring to are specifically Processors and Crafters (I think its safe to say that gatherers will have to go out in the real world) and never have to leave a metropolis.
    3) It has already been said that some of the best materials in the game are going to come from Dungeons and Raids soooooo I imagine they can't just metropolis forever until they die.
    4) They need someplace to practice said craft. We really don't know if that is going to be free or close to free. Who knows how many quests are required to get said space.

    I am sure there are more to list but we can start there.

    Thanks,
    Lex
  • Lex,

    If there is no character level requirement to craft, we may very well see very low level master crafters. Steven already said that he doesn't favor bound gear, so everything will be tradable. So, it could be that a crafter will never have to leave a metropolis/castle if they have a guild or other persons that can feed them crafting supplies.

    Beyond that, Dygz's distinction is correct. There are people, like WoW players for example, that prefer to play against the A.I. at all times with no threat of players ever attacking them. These same players may never craft anything in their entire game experience. I agree with you though, we don't know enough yet about what it really takes to be a "crafter".

    That said, they (PvE players) are going to have to decide if this will be a game they want to play or not. My expectations are that those types of players will avoid this game by and large. My hope is that the game is so good that they can't help but come and try it anyway. Unfortunately, that won't be until a ways beyond the launch and it will only happen if the reviews are stellar.

    I hope everyone can agree that the overall health and long term success of this game is directly related to the amount of paying players it has. If you can agree that this is important, PvE and PvP players need to come together and find common ground for the good of us all. This game is going to need a lot of sheepdogs to protect the sheep.

    I don't have all the answers, but I definitely understand the problem.
  • [quote]@LexLocke wrote:
    You are making a couple assumptions:[/quote]

    1: Avatars exist in a virtual world, not a real world. By "real world" do you mean wilderness, they never have to leave a town or city?
    May also be possible that some adventurers never have to leave the city either. But, I'm expecting crafters to visit other locations for training and to find recipes. 100% of them are not going to be staying in the city. Some will be travelling. So, yes. I assume there will be crafters who travel. And i keep hearing that the thing to do is get an Adventurer escort to protect them from PvP combat.

    2: Instead of Crafters, I could say Artisans, if you really need to be that precise. I mean Artisans, but "crafters" is more colloquial. So, the Crafters I speak of could be Gatherers, Processors or Crafters. Some will never travel. Some will travel. The ones i'm referring to are the ones who do travel, whether they feel they need to or whether they simply want to.
    Also, we don't know what kinds of tasks the nodes might give them that would motivate Artisans to travel. I assume there will be some. Enough that some Artisans will leave villages, towns, cities and Metropolises and travel elsewhere.
    It will not be the case that 100% of the Artisans never travel. I am certain of that.
    And I am told that the thing for Artisans to do when they travel is have PvPers escort them to protect them from PvP combat.

    3: Some of the best materials will come from dungeons and raids. Some is not all. Some players may choose to never leave the village, town, city, metropolis. Some may move due to high taxes. Some may move for better real estate. Some may move because the village, town, city, metropolis or node has been destroyed. I'm pretty certain that the world will be interesting and volatile enough that some Artisans will be traveling and it will be impossible that all Artisans stay in the safety of their home neighborhoods. Also, with economic and political intrigue and conflict, I'm not sure that home neighborhoods will always be that safe from attacks by other avatars - even with guards.
    And I am told that the thing for Artisans to do when they travel is have PvPers escort them to protect them from PvP combat.

    4: We can be quite sure that Artisans will need to craft/process at crafting stations - those crafting stations are not just for show. They are most likely continuations of the crafting stations from EQNext/Landmark. I don't know whether they will need to quest in order to gain access to their own crafting stations. Seems likely since we had to do that in Landmark. Regardless, I expect some Artisans will be leaving their crafting stations to do other things: trade, train, visit friends, etc. I assume some Artisans will travel.
    And I am told that the thing for Artisans to do when they travel is have PvPers escort them to protect them from PvP combat.

    5: And I assume that sometimes ther will be Artisans traveling alone or in a group of Artisans that does not include an Adventurer.

    But, I dunno what your point is.
  • Wow, Dygz are you being deliberately obtuse?
  • [quote quote=21736]<blockquote>@LexLocke wrote:
    You are making a couple assumptions:
    </blockquote>

    But, I dunno what your point is.

    [/quote]

    I think this one line sums up why we go back and forth on posts so often.......
  • Look, having played crafters of all manner and all facets, I can testify that crafters do have to struggle against the environment in all such games. Harvesting locations are seldom without hungry mobs. Crafting facilities are usually not all in the same village especially at the start of new games. Markets are not always in every village.
    As any type of crafter it pays to have some side skills that help you get what you need because you can't always rely on supply from other players or even GET it from convenient locations if it is available. That means going outside and having to do things yourself. Most especially when you are a "younger" of any type.
    Yes crafters can hire players to protect them during these excursions. No those protectors are not always easy to find. Most often players can make better coin doing PVE themselves than babysitting crafters.
    Here is an idea though... if you are concerned about PVP while trying to do PVE, get 2 parties together. One to "do the dungeon" or whatever and one to watch your backs during. Take turns.
    There is no escape from the possibility of PVP. There is only the mitigation of the probability of PVP through common sense, teamwork, and politics(sometimes).
  • 1: Steven consistently talks about the synergy of"PvE" and "PvP" in terms of "We need people who will make the armor and the give it to the adventurers and then we need the adventurers who buy the armor." And whenever people say they don't want to PvP, the response is , "Get some PvPers to protect you from PvP." Which works great for Artisans.
    No PvP guards are going to be screaming at a baker or armorer when he doesn't heal them or taunt during a PvP battle. That does not work for a PvE cleric or a PvE tank.
    PvP folk are not going to escort a PvE cleric or a PvE tank who does not participate in the PvP battle.
    Unless you're telling me that happens. I keep asking about that. And people keep ignoring it.

    Again, people keep presenting this escort concept as if the escort will always win.
    When my experience has been that people get kicked from groups for not having BiS gear or the optimal spec for the class.
    Is this what happens? PvE cleric and PvE tank refuse to participate in the PvP battle. The group wipes and everyone is OK with that?

    Anyways. Really that's a derail that should be moved to the other thread. I'm just answering questions but this is not the thread.
    This thread is about the corruption system and Improvements to it.
  • @ Dygz
    There probably isn't any satisfactory answer to your question. It's a fair question though.

    It depends on the attitudes of the group. Some will expect that you at least try and help in any PVP situation. Probably MOST will expect that. It's really part of what being a "group" is. You take all of the challenges as they come while trying to achieve all of the things that your members want to achieve and "The Guild" or group wants to achieve. A few may do things differently.

    Exceptions might be: prearranged plans for ensuring valuable loot gets to a safe place or acceptance by your group that you simply won't do PVP or something like that. Pick up groups? no one can answer that, but from my experience, unless stipulated otherwise when forming the expectation has always been "all hands to battle stations!".

    It's a game with PVP elements from which not all PVP can always be avoided. Most guilds will have something in their write ups about their expectations around PVP.

    For myself, I would probably be more on the side of expecting any I travel with to be ready to help out if PVP comes upon us unexpectedly. Even if they are not any good at it. I might even go so far as to choose other players next time if some have proven that they will not chip in and fight when needed. At least then the odds would be better....
  • I really wish i knew more details about AoC lore, but I don't. So I'll have to use EQNext lore and their Storybricks system upon which the Node system heavily borrows.

    SCENARIO 1:
    The dark elves build a stronghold in the Serpentspine Mountains. They build a processor plant used to transmute Life magic into Shadow magic. Shadow magic powers abilities like Stealth, along with augmenting gear and spells with the Shadow descriptor.
    The dark elves begin to farm dryads in Kithicor Forest in order to siphon their Life magic as a resource for their Shadow processors.
    As Life magic is drained from the forest, blight begins to spread among the trees. The Druids and Rangers in Kithicor are aware that if Life magic bcomes too depeleted in the forest, the shackles that bind the dreaded Shadow Demons will break, releasing the monstrosities to terrorize the regions, devouring all life they encounter.
    Aniki, a Rogue/Cleric, travels to Kithicor Forest to farm some dryads. The Druid, Asher discovers Aniki and asks her to let the dryads be. Aniki laughs and continues killing the nearby dryads. Asher attacks Aniki, but Aniki doesn't fight back.
    Asher kills Aniki and becomes corrupted.
  • @ Dygz
    Are you sick of disappearing posts too? lol
    "Again, people keep presenting this escort concept as if the escort will always win.
    When my experience has been that people get kicked from groups for not having BiS gear or the optimal spec for the class.
    Is this what happens? PvE cleric and PvE tank refuse to participate in the PvP battle. The group wipes and everyone is OK with that?"

    To answer your question, I have to say that it just depends on who you team up with. Most though will probably expect you to fight or flee with them. Sometimes it is decided before the group even leaves by the front door. Usually not though which leads to much voice chat shouting, hehe! So, NO. Most always, no.

    A guild will almost always have expectations in their write ups. Most will probably expect PVE players will be ready to fight with their mates in the event of unexpected PVP.

    There is not usually any sugar coated protection from PVP in these games from within a guild. Think how frustrating that would be for those willing to fight not being able to count on their guild mates even trying?
  • Also no. Having escorts does not guarantee "winning". What having escorts does is make player bandits have to do math. One or two bandits together will be deterred from attacking even two other players, in many cases. Larger escorts/groups deter larger bandit groups.
  • My friend, i am very sick of disappearing posts!!
    We all feel the same pain!
    (I also really, really, really need a like button)
  • Most of my posts are eaten by this hidden monster. Ashes of Creation Discord is very active with discussion about the game, good alternative tell this problem is fixed.
  • I guess one thing that is odd to me is that so many people think in terms of PKers and bandits. while my concern is that most of us will have legitimate reasons to want to kill others due to the node v node conflict. Not simply enemy v enemy but because the actions we take will negatively affect rival regions (or even our own regions politically).
  • I think post should only disappear if you down vote then, and speaking of which we should have vote thing.
  • After reading through several threads/posts on this issue over the last few days I’ve become increasingly Leary of the B.S. I mean AoC wants PKing in the game so the arguments for or against are moot at this point.

    It’s a question of justice and for me I don’t believe in arbitrary measures of punishment. If you do “X” you will suffer condition “Y” it’s like attempting to instill some form of guilt or conscious. While I am no fan of Pker’s per se I am even lesser of a fan of imposition on liberty. If a player wants to PK in the game I don’t want to have mechanics that artificially deter them. What I want is a robust in game process by which I can equally “kill” their ability to do other things.

    Example 1. Trade embargos: the ability to impose AH embargos on players.
    Example 2. the ability to affect their ability to get into raids via extended raid locks.
    Example 3. the ability to poison, or taint the gear they get from me that will affect them negatively later on.

    If I can randomly be killed by another player while not engaging in, or desiring to engage in PVP I’m okay with that. However I want the ability to randomly engage THEM in an equally negative experience in game they can’t control. This Corruption system places the majority of control in the PKer’s hands as they govern when it can be applied based on their actions. They are getting the best of both worlds, they get their preferred game play and they can manage the negative aspects of that game play.

    Again, don’t misunderstand. I am not advocating against PK players, on the contrary I am advocating for a more robust system that allows more means by which to affect other people in the game that levels the playing field. Go ahead kill me take my stuff, but give me alternative means for justice. Otherwise it’s a glorified, perhaps refined arbitrary justice system that the person being killed has no way to affect.
  • Right. I mentioned this last night on The Ashen Forge (twitch.tv/TheoryForge).
    One of my co-hosts mentioned concern about losing his goods during a carvan attack and not wanting that to happen multiple times.
    I'm fine with whatever happens on a caravan run because I can schedule that encounter and prepare for it ahead of time. I am able to prepare the degree of loss that is acceptable to me. If I'm no longer in the mood to participate in a caravan run, I can choose not do another caravan run. I can go do something else in the game for several hours and no one can force me to participate in another caravan run until I'm ready. If some other player was able to force me to start another caravan run while i wasn't in the mood, I would become enraged.

    But, this topic is about the Corruption mechanics, so I return to the topic at hand...
    SCENARIO 1:
    The dark elves build a stronghold in the Serpentspine Mountains. They build a processor plant used to transmute Life magic into Shadow magic. Shadow magic powers abilities like Stealth, along with augmenting gear and spells with the Shadow descriptor.
    The dark elves begin to farm dryads in Kithicor Forest in order to siphon their Life magic as a resource for their Shadow processors.
    As Life magic is drained from the forest, blight begins to spread among the trees. The Druids and Rangers in Kithicor are aware that if Life magic bcomes too depeleted in the forest, the shackles that bind the dreaded Shadow Demons will break, releasing the monstrosities to terrorize the regions, devouring all life they encounter.
    Aniki, a Rogue/Cleric, travels to Kithicor Forest to farm some dryads. The Druid, Asher discovers Aniki and asks her to let the dryads be. Aniki laughs and continues killing the nearby dryads. Asher attacks Aniki, but Aniki doesn’t fight back.
    Asher kills Aniki and becomes corrupted.
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