MMORPG's place in Esports

ArchivedUser

Karthos said:

lexmax said:

Elves and dwarves don't mix either, and just look at us my Rumbly friend!

Image courtesy of @Rumbleforge!

This cheered me up, I have having a bad night until I saw this.

Thank you!

ArchivedUser

CylverRayne said:

Mathcore said:

As Ashes of Creation is a subscription base game, and they want to implement arenas, battleground and yes their 1v1 2v2 5v5 etc. systems and they also wanted to do a ranking system, I would see them, if doing sucessfull, a good chance. But not in e-sport in the modern way, like esl and things like this. more in a own way, maybe in a tournament the first 100 are qualified and the first will have a price pool that they can decide. I think that system would work and encourage a lot of players to do pvp and maybe also starting the game. Also you can make in Guild vs Guild a price pool for first or so. In Guild wars 1 (not 2 ) it was a great thing and was also a big price pool sometimes. what do you think?

Ashes is a MMORPG not a gambling asset. Dedicated gamers are looking for a real honest to goodness old time with new ideas and a  game to sink their teeth in, not a sporting event.

Well said, friend.  

ArchivedUser

Diura said:

CylverRayne said:

Mathcore said:

As Ashes of Creation is a subscription base game, and they want to implement arenas, battleground and yes their 1v1 2v2 5v5 etc. systems and they also wanted to do a ranking system, I would see them, if doing sucessfull, a good chance. But not in e-sport in the modern way, like esl and things like this. more in a own way, maybe in a tournament the first 100 are qualified and the first will have a price pool that they can decide. I think that system would work and encourage a lot of players to do pvp and maybe also starting the game. Also you can make in Guild vs Guild a price pool for first or so. In Guild wars 1 (not 2 ) it was a great thing and was also a big price pool sometimes. what do you think?

Ashes is a MMORPG not a gambling asset. Dedicated gamers are looking for a real honest to goodness old time with new ideas and a  game to sink their teeth in, not a sporting event.

Hit the nail on the head If you're looking for a future e-sport game you're at the wrong place. However pvp will be competitive and fun in ashes with arenas and open world pvp and because of meaningful play within ashes- the game will be competitive and enjoyable enough without the need of making it into a sport ^^

No need to making it to a sport like in a big stadium and with moderators, but a price pool for tournaments every month or so. So that the Top 10 or Top 3 of big tournaments earn something from a price pool, not gamling style that players need to pay to entre the tournament. I just think bigger events like this have a wider range of people and is a nice add to that beautiful game, im not a pvp guy i play everything but its a nice add so why not? ^^

ArchivedUser

Diura said:

CylverRayne said:

Mathcore said:

As Ashes of Creation is a subscription base game, and they want to implement arenas, battleground and yes their 1v1 2v2 5v5 etc. systems and they also wanted to do a ranking system, I would see them, if doing sucessfull, a good chance. But not in e-sport in the modern way, like esl and things like this. more in a own way, maybe in a tournament the first 100 are qualified and the first will have a price pool that they can decide. I think that system would work and encourage a lot of players to do pvp and maybe also starting the game. Also you can make in Guild vs Guild a price pool for first or so. In Guild wars 1 (not 2 ) it was a great thing and was also a big price pool sometimes. what do you think?

Ashes is a MMORPG not a gambling asset. Dedicated gamers are looking for a real honest to goodness old time with new ideas and a  game to sink their teeth in, not a sporting event.

Hit the nail on the head If you're looking for a future e-sport game you're at the wrong place. However pvp will be competitive and fun in ashes with arenas and open world pvp and because of meaningful play within ashes- the game will be competitive and enjoyable enough without the need of making it into a sport ^^

No need to making it to a sport like in a big stadium and with moderators, but a price pool for tournaments every month or so. So that the Top 10 or Top 3 of big tournaments earn something from a price pool, not gamling style that players need to pay to entre the tournament. I just think bigger events like this have a wider range of people and is a nice add to that beautiful game, im not a pvp guy i play everything but its a nice add so why not? ^^

ArchivedUser

iQVanq said:

Whocando said:

Esports and MMOs dont mix.

Ashes will have a player driven competitive areana system.

But to isolate a particular element of the whole game and invest time, money and development specifically towards Esports and associated marketing never pays off and ends up being detrimental to the core game.

GW2 is a prime example of dedicated Esports attempt in MMO's failing.

The players who still value a genuine MMO are all still here, interested and waiting.

The reason for player decline is a lack of a game that captures that nostalgic MMO experience lost over a decade ago.

That's untrue.  Having been a professional gamer I started out my career in Guild Wars.  Guild Wars 2 E-Sports failed entirely because of the game mode that was chosen to host the actual E-Sport.  No one wants to watch 6v6 keyboard-faceroll.  They did want to watch 8v8 with complex team play with multiple objectives to manage.  That was the key difference between GW1 and GW2.  (some would argue that GW2 was just a shit game all together...but that's just me.)

Generally speaking most games that launched that came into E-Sports got there because of the community.

Just because a game doesn't support a ranking system for TEAMS in certain game modes doesn't mean you cant create that system on your own.

All it takes is a few opened API's, a website, and a few sponsors.

A prime example would be CowLeagues Athena cup in OverWatch.

OH side note:  As a Software Developer these sites are incredibly easy to build.  The hard part usually is the algorithm behind the automated matchmaking.  Everything else is just C.R.U.D.

AND:  Lets be honest if there was a group of 15 highly skilled teams fighting each other 6v6-8v8 with some type of objective oriented play (like GW1) people would watch.  People have always liked to watch extremely skilled players play the same games they play.  Its the whole idea behind TWITCH, lol.

The premise of the OP is that Ashes should develop towards Esports initially.
I used GW2 as an example of an MMO doing just that and failing while also expressing how development and resources were sacrificed to pursue an Esports element in an MMO that was detrimental to the core game.

Whether GW2 is a good or bad game is irrelevant. the point was the time and finances being siphoned away with little to no return on investment certainly not long term.

If people don't want to watch 6v6 then why imply they would watch 8v8? only by a personal experience and opinion from a participants point of view.

I don't want to watch either regardless of professional career.

I mentioned that Ashes will have a player driven competitive arena system.

But running the risk of competitive balancing while not breaking core world mechanics always seems to be an issue.

Also there are the Egos of the professionals* to deal/manage. Giving a handful of players a pedestal only representing a small element of the world complexity, typically results in backlash and toxicity, with short term attention spans. Who shit the bed and move onto the next 'go to Esports title'

Can Ashes support an Esports element?..of course
Should it prioritize Esports in the MMO genre?...no

ArchivedUser

I think there are possible avenues to explore for Ashes that haven't been fully explored, though I don't think that raw e-sports is one that will ultimately bear fruit.  I definitely don't think it's something Intrepid should put any time or effort into.  They should simple make their game.

That said, e-sports is largely driven by arena type events.  While Ashes will have that available, it hasn't worked particularly well in other games, even huge games, of this genre.  I think it's something to do with the genre itself.  E-sports tend to be dominated by "twitch/reflex" type gaming, while MMO's tend to find less of those type people involved.

Something more akin to the old raiding progression sites - greatly expanded - however might take hold.  Anything that allows people to compete, but on their own terms, would be successful.  The real kicker is finding critical mass.  

ArchivedUser

Making Ashes into an Esport would cause some problems I think. I feel like it would split the game into the Ashes esport and the Ashes MMO, which would split the community. The game is focused around the community affecting the world and changing it so a split would be counter productive. Also, any time esports is implemented it causes the developers to have to balance the classes for it and usually that affects the balance of the rest of the game as well. It will just turn into the problem of balancing for pvp vs balancing for pve that games like wow has, where in this game they are supposed to be one and the same.

ArchivedUser

Very interesting topic, I'm not sure how the game would evolve if it had split communities. It's quite possible that AoC could create it's own type of mmo-esports equivalent. Especially because AoC probably won't purely rely on skill and reaction timing. 
Seeing as how AoC has great potential in tactical and strategic play, it wouldn't be surprising if there was a large audience for guild vs guild or large group fights. I mean this in regards of tournaments etc. where money is involved.
Would be nice if the best players can earn some cash. 

ArchivedUser

#SportInAoC )

ArchivedUser

If MMOs and ESports were to mix it would need a whole no change up to fit the play style. Maybe guild vs guild or node city vs node kingdom. Either way the Idea is good but the mix would be almost impossible. I also wanted to mention the crowed base, would it either shrink or grow? I don't know this answer, but my opinion is it would grow.

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

Solemnfaceman said:

Dygz said:

Esports and MMORPGs shouldn't mix.
Esports should be great for MMOFPSs.

Esports should be anything the community want to watch. 
Esports should be anything the sponsors see a chance to make money out of and give players a hope to make a living out of.

Well said! There will be highly competitive people in Ashes arena. Why not give them a platform to compete for money/prizes? It will raise the visibility of the game and bring in more subscribers. I can't see anything wrong with that. 

So you are going to say....hey min/maxers come here and this game will pay you to play too!

So the game gets advertised as a min/maxers game and the RPG and community side gets shoved out the window in the name of profit.

Min/maxers want a highly competitive game will is all about personal performance.

MMO and RPG players want a community based social game which is based on cooperation...not competition.

Cooperation and competition are not compatible....they are opposites.

ArchivedUser

I don't think it will work. It drives a wedge in between the different player populations, and AoC will be no different. plus MMOs often have the additional problem of balancing to make the sport fair.  And while this is endemic to PVP, player attitudes just become worse. Once it becomes suspect that an esports environment is unfair, the reputation of it gets bad, and it takes a new mode to start to recover.

ArchivedUser

The way competitive matches should happen is the town arena.  That would be the proper way to handle it in MMORPG. 

Allow players to be bet on it game.  Let the players cheer and boo as well.  Allow the winners to be promoted through victories to node champions and compete vs other nodes.

It could also be a form of punishment for breaking node laws.  I assume there is no perma death so some other meaningful punishment would be needs for losing.

ArchivedUser

@Nagash would be proud of this one also.

ArchivedUser

Please don't try to crowbar in "e-sports".  If it happens it will happen.  For a game to be an e-sport it either has to have a community willing to watch it, or be built from the ground up around being an e-sport.  Only LoL and Overwatch are even qualified to be the second one, with dota2 not qualifying because it came from dota 1 which started the whole e-sports craze along side starcraft.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Solemnfaceman said:

Dygz said:

Esports and MMORPGs shouldn't mix.
Esports should be great for MMOFPSs.

Esports should be anything the community want to watch. 
Esports should be anything the sponsors see a chance to make money out of and give players a hope to make a living out of.

MMORPGs should not be made such that the Esports community finds it fun to watch.
It's like asking for books or movies to be a sport.

To be fair he didn't really say the game should be made into a game for the "esports community", just that an esport is any game the community of players want to watch and can be presented in a way to make money for both sponsors and players.

For instance PUBG has a community that wants too watch it, but hasn't found away to properly present a game of 100 people to an audience in a coherent way yet. So I wouldnt call it an esport.

ArchivedUser

I really hope ashes will have a competitive scene and some sort of tournements, no need for league of legends style and the how big it is. Aslong as there is some sort of orginization doing it.

ArchivedUser

Tbh i didn't read all comments, but you cant have Esport in MMO where skill is only half of the deal. Basically on MMOs you have somes classes that counter somes others, + gear and weapons are making the difference.

ArchivedUser

Esports is the cancer that is killing gaming. Its like an old man trying to sound hip amongst the cool kids. It leads to image branding and the cancerous corporate culture that kills the fun and creativity of games. MMOs are especially vulnerable to this as they make the most money off people actually playing and enjoying the game, not spamming emotes in a stream chat because Team Epix just won an arena final.

ArchivedUser

kencha77 said:

From what i have watched from the previous Q&As, the reason for the development of this game is because the team who are working with the game are worried that the MMORPG genre that they loved so much is losing the interest of players. They told that from what they think as MMORPG players themselves, one of the reason of this decline of player interest is because of the promises of a game that was not fulfilled and many managerial decisions which are not very well accepted by the players. Yes this might be true but for me, a gamer who played many different types of Multiplayer games, i can see that there's this one aspect which MMORPGs are lacking and that is the competitive esports.

Players, especially veterans, wants to showcase the abilities of the characters they created, leveled and geared up to other people and at the same time earn profit out of it. the Competitive esports scene is the best place to do all of this. If ever ashes become successful, i hope the management will organize many events/tournaments for all interested players to compete. With the node system of the game, this tournaments can also have an impact to the game. A node can have its own representatives which will be benefited if its representatives wins the tournament

I have to be blunt about this. Part of the reason I am here is that World of Warcraft is becoming a game designed around esports. Not that I have a problem with esports. It is simply that the core of the game's community, the non-competitive player, is not getting much in that game. Nor does it seem likely that Battle for Azeroth, the upcoming expansion, will change that. Although the Classic servers seem like fun, I know they won't suffice as my main game. So thank you, but no. No Ashes of Creation esports. It ruins the community for the person who cares more about the story and world than the competition. If you want an MMORPG with an active esports scene, World of Warcraft is where you should look. You have both PvP and PvE esports, and the upcoming Warfronts feature looks like it is also intended to become an esport. This is also a great time to join World of Warcraft as they have (finally) redone the leveling system, and the classes are not going through major overhauls like usual. The current expansion is wrapping up, but there are still several months before the new expansion will hit.  Even if you dawdle, it won't take you more than a month to level up: don't let the big numbers fool you, it goes quickly.

ArchivedUser

I think there is room for e-sports in MMO's. But I do not think you can just take one aspect of the game and use only that part of the MMO. Lets use World of Warcraft as an example. The blizzcon arena invitational has been going on for some time now and only focused on PvP. Until this yea when blizzard decided to do the Mythic Plus invitational. I am sure with the right focus and some time and effort some form of e-sports could be made from ashes that includes both PvE. and PvP. Also lets be honest a majority of the most popular games these days have a large esports following and large Twitch following. Like LoL, CSGO, OverWatch, Call of Duty, DoTa 2, and so on. Esports for a MMO might be a way to breath fresh air into our beloved genre along side of a well executed game.

ArchivedUser

squirrelacus said:

I think there is room for e-sports in MMO's. But I do not think you can just take one aspect of the game and use only that part of the MMO. Lets use World of Warcraft as an example. The blizzcon arena invitational has been going on for some time now and only focused on PvP. Until this yea when blizzard decided to do the Mythic Plus invitational. I am sure with the right focus and some time and effort some form of e-sports could be made from ashes that includes both PvE. and PvP. Also lets be honest a majority of the most popular games these days have a large esports following and large Twitch following. Like LoL, CSGO, OverWatch, Call of Duty, DoTa 2, and so on. Esports for a MMO might be a way to breath fresh air into our beloved genre along side of a well executed game.

So right @squirrelacus. If I recall correctly the PvE invitational got an unexpedtedly huge viewership. Esports is a platform for games that provides massive exposure. Like RL sports it relies on games that telegraph easily to an audience. If Ashes at its core has that kind of approach it will not only have more appeal to players but it could also capitalize on the rapidly growing esports marketplace. Ashes is a beautiful game, why not show it off

ArchivedUser

Balance for PvP is always extremely difficult with so many variables, but I do agree the ideal MMORPG would allow for a competitive e-sports scene. WoW seems to have accomplished this. I don't understand why people think the two ideas cannot co-exist. I think allowing organized competition, which is how I am thinking of sports, could be potentially hugely beneficial. Maybe e-sports for Ashes is arena based, or maybe it's who can complete a never-seen-before dungeon or quest fastest, or battleground based.

ArchivedUser

MMO´s arent made to get an esport character they are made to tell stories of ffantastic worlds and made to find your place in that Story also MMo´s got the posibility to fight with other Players in Arenas and battlegrounds so you still have a competision but not on e Sport Niveau the Problem is not that this genre doesnt fit into the ESport Cache ist that the People dont want to dive in this world they wanna do a short game and dont think about decisions they have to do ingame maybe they think about a strategy to win and how they build but after 30 mins they can just start a new game and the decisions of the last game are deleted in MMO´s you will feel them your whole characterlive long

ArchivedUser

If the progression is horizontal, then balance should be a priority designed into gameplay.
If progression is vertical, then balance will be an afterthought thats secondary to gameplay.

So IMO trying to make an esport out of a vertical progression game will just lead to a constant stream of nerf/buff (and OP class swapping), that pisses everyone off who want consistency in their build choice. No one wants to spend 1000s of hours perfecting a build, only to have it made non viable.

Horizontal progression systems are based on alternate styles rather than power. As the power differential is not a thing, I think it makes a more ideal model for esports as equality/parity is the focus.

As we really dont know the finer points of whether Ashes experience will progress power or versatility, its impossible to say if it will make a good model for esports. They have said esports isnt a priority.

ArchivedUser

Lets be a true MMO community and NOT focus on become "esports ready" and instead we can see what direction the game leads us in a few years.. 
No rushing e-sports or any tournaments or we may have similar issue's to fornite where they just keep on pushing to trying and implement e-sports without focusing on the basics first.  

ArchivedUser

Aiveleen said:
This is also a great time to join World of Warcraft as they have (finally) redone the leveling system, and the classes are not going through major overhauls like usual.

Yeah, and this is not a positive thing, but a big negative.
The current class design in wow is 100% shit, and it needs a complete rework from scratch.
The PvP is dead in wow, since expansions ago now thanks to the **** class deseign they started with cata, and yet they want only mirror changes, LMAO, I ain't wonder why they aren't even talking about PvP anymore in the new expansion videos. It's dead, and officaly abbadoned....

ArchivedUser

One thing to remember is that even if Intrepid wanted to do something like this we're talking 5-10 years (maybe more) down the line when the game has built up a big enough fan/player base.  Just look at how long it took for Overwatch to get going.

I think E-sports works well because people are watching games that have been around and have time to grow a fan base.  They are also usually games that don't require subscriptions are easy-ish to pick up.

E-sports are also more about the players's skills with characters/heroes that are the same no matter who plays them. AoC E-sports would have to have pre-set characters/classes/weapons/skills and other limitations that allowed the games to focus more on how well someone can play a pre-created character that watching a group of players who have all of the best equipment beat the crap out of a team just because they're gear might not be as good.  There are too many variations involved with MMOs.

ArchivedUser

To me, Path of Exile had the right idea for how to get an e-sport scene in an online game - even though e-sport was never their intention.

They hosted specific events periodically that were held on a separate server, and with slightly modified game rules. There may be a competition to see who can level up to level 20 the fastest, or which group of players can level up, gear up and kill a specific encounter the fastest. There may be a compitition to see who could get furthest in to the game without dying - the first death PvE ending that players run for the weekend. The possibilities for what can be done are only limited by the game itself.

If Intrepid ran events one weekend a month where people could log in at any time they wanted over that weekend, and play through the designated content in a timed manner creating a leaderboard, I could see that creating a grassroots e-sports scene that could, in time, be built upon. 

As a bonus, I can also see it helping to keep players interested in the game itself longer.

ArchivedUser

No. Simply put. Look, if you want an e sport game then the game has to be designed for e sports....moba. Yeah, they have their own genre. The creators of AoC are making an MMO, hopefully a good one at that. If the arenas or what have you develops into an e sport than so be it but trying to push the game into an e sport right off the bat is a bad idea.