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Combat rythms vs Combat HUD .

2

Comments

  • I understand both sides of the argument. The need for accurate information/feedback. The need for total immersion/realism.

    I guess it also depends on how realistic we want things.
    When we are in a fight, do we actually know how wounded someone is ?
    When we have killed someone, do we take it for granted, make certain of it, or check ?

    There is no numerical assurances of real life combat effectiveness, other than the person is non responsive, or disabled in some aspect.
    I've killed them!
    Have you ? Did you check the breath...the pulse ?

    Perhaps we should only be able to examine someone when apparently unconscious.
    Perhaps examining others should be a conditional, time and energy consuming skill in its own right, rather than a taken for granted HUD ?
    Should we even be privvy to the information we take for granted in a HUD ?
    Should we have this magic link that tells us at one nanosecond someone needs healing and for exactly how much ?
    Should the wounded person signal for help instead ?

    I am not trying to be beligerant, honestly.
    Just shunting the pieces around trying to make a better fit for everyone.
  • Accurate information is possible both way I think,Its just a matter of which form you want it;HUD or visual presentation(but animation heavy)
    The ones that want EVERY piece of information for top proficiency prefer the HUD way.
    Min/maxers want it because all that matters to them is being the best & winning(the predatory instinct you talked about perhaps @Rune_relic)
    The others care more for immersion in combat itself,content,realism.It has come far if min/maxers call you a slacker for wanting to enjoy content
    Mechanics and the system over community&content has become a real problem.
    I don't like the numerical assurances because it offers the certainty that makes combat dull;while the uncertainty of having to examine a corpse,for example, adds a certain thrill.
    (talked about it earlier)
    Perhaps it also touches the topic of having everything handed to you vs discovering things for yourself
    In a game I used to enjoy ,quest for glory V,you had to examine your surroundings to find clues.
    You could combine items for example and got clues from an npc which Pizza he liked in his journal and then you had to combine ingredients in attempts to create the pizza he liked.
    IN modern games you'd just buy the pizza instantly or gather the ingredients and ,poof,the right pizza is in your inventory.
    We've been so spoiled with "information" & instant gratification in games lately.While infact it makes things bland.
    But players now desire all the information because they are so used it anyway.
  • i dont get why you keep calling it min/maxing, wanting to be able to see exactly how much health one has instead of listening for audio queues, or animations isnt even close to min/maxing.

    "to min/max refers to the act of designing a character in such a way that one minimises its weaknesses and maximises its strengths."
  • Then how should we call the people that exclude others if they do not have top proficient build?
    Those that only care about time /reward and nothing for the socialness of the game
    and care nothing for the actual content because they constantly skip it and call people who want to follow it slackers.
    While they always try to force META builds on people because they are most proficient.
    If you have better word for it than min/maxer please share.
  • [quote quote=2553]Then how should we call the people that exclude others if they do not have top proficient build?
    Those that only care about time /reward and nothing for the socialness of the game
    and care nothing for the actual content because they constantly skip it and call people who want to follow it slackers.
    While they always try to force META builds on people because they are most proficient.
    If you have better word for it than min/maxer please share.

    [/quote]

    people who only take specific builds are more elitists than anything, and by no means represent the majority of the population, if you have trouble finding runs join that guild that allows for more relaxed requirements.

    but either case people who want to see a health bar are neither min/maxers or elitists , they just want to be able to play the game their way, same as you.
  • yet a min/maxer would also find that specific build desirable if it was the max proficient option.The line between elitist and min/maxers seems to be very thin to me.
    So its just a question if they'd demand other players to follow the max proficient option
    and then you'd call the min maxer elitist?
    hmm maybe skill lines and rotations are way worse for combat depth,freedom of choice for player & player creativity in combat.
    than the actual healthbar itself
    As I said ,there have been games like might and magic VII blood and honor where you could go below 0 hp depending on your endurance.
    In that stage where endurance would prevent you to die below 0 you were unconscious
  • My point is that, people who want to play with a health bar/ HUD want to play the game the way that they find enjoyable for them, just like you. and in doing so, they are neither elitest or min/maxers, they like playing with a health bar.

    if you dont want to play the "op" build, dont its fine thats your choice find a group that will take you there's a ton of guilds in mmo's that will.
  • I call it min/maxing because the whole point is to have less penalties than any other competitor and more bonuses than any other competitor.
    It is merely a hunt to find numerical imbalances/exploits in the system to guarantee winning (aka numerical supremacy rather than skill/tactical supremacy).
    You can not identify those imbalances without an accurate HUD that enables you to reverse engineer the numbers and formulas.

    No Numbers...No min/maxing.

    The problem of course is that you can not accurately gauge personal performance without accurate data.
    But personal performance is meaningless except in the context of others in a multiplayer game.
    Many also feel more comfortable not trusting developer balance and checking everything is legit themselves.

    There are those who use the numbers for personal development.
    There are those who use those numbers simply to destroy everyone else or inspect/reject others.
    Both of them are basically using those numbers as a supremacy meter (comparison to others or self).

    I hate the competitive/non-competitive divide that exists between MMO communities.
    Those that merely seek adventure with others vs those who demand obedience to a personal bias.
    It would be better for everyone if co-existance and mutual enjoyment was enabled.
    Perhaps that is simply impossible.

    Perhaps the predator and the herd can never exist in harmony.
  • [quote quote=2564]I call it min/maxing because the whole point is to have less penalties than any other competitor and more bonuses than any other competitor.
    It is merely a hunt to find numerical imbalances/exploits in the system to guarantee winning (aka numerical supremacy rather than skill/tactical supremacy).
    You can not identify those imbalances without an accurate HUD that enables you to reverse engineer the numbers and formulas.
    [/quote]

    if you want to get rid of min/maxers get rid of inspect players elements and stuff like that, being able to see your own health bar has nothing to do with being better than someone else it just simply says what your current health is at.
  • [quote quote=2555]<blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-rythms-vs-combat-ui/page/3/#post-2553" rel="nofollow">Tipsytoo wrote:</a></div>
    Then how should we call the people that exclude others if they do not have top proficient build?
    Those that only care about time /reward and nothing for the socialness of the game
    and care nothing for the actual content because they constantly skip it and call people who want to follow it slackers.
    While they always try to force META builds on people because they are most proficient.
    If you have better word for it than min/maxer please share.

    </blockquote>
    people who only take specific builds are more elitists than anything, and by no means represent the majority of the population, if you have trouble finding runs join that guild that allows for more relaxed requirements.

    but either case people who want to see a health bar are neither min/maxers or elitists , they just want to be able to play the game their way, same as you.

    [/quote]

    Actually they do exert an evergrowing influence over any MMO.
    New players are encourage and brainwashed into wanting to be the best (scrubs/trash).
    Being the best means joining a hyper competitive group.
    Joining a hyper competitive group means tight coordination and optimised builds (min/maxed + any and all exploits).
    That means you will wear what you are told, you will use the skills you are told, you will play the way you are told.
    ..or leave.
    Thats the predator mentality. Not the herd one.
    Any concept of freewill is sacrificed.

    And as the predatory tyrannical mentality propsers, the herd leaves the game because it sucks.
  • [quote quote=2568]<blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-rythms-vs-combat-ui/page/3/#post-2564" rel="nofollow">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div>
    I call it min/maxing because the whole point is to have less penalties than any other competitor and more bonuses than any other competitor.
    It is merely a hunt to find numerical imbalances/exploits in the system to guarantee winning (aka numerical supremacy rather than skill/tactical supremacy).
    You can not identify those imbalances without an accurate HUD that enables you to reverse engineer the numbers and formulas.

    </blockquote>
    if you want to get rid of min/maxers get rid of inspect players elements and stuff like that, being able to see your own health bar has nothing to do with being better than someone else it just simply says what your current health is at.

    [/quote]

    Is seeing what buffs and debuffs your friend/enemy has with a HUD not inspecting other players ?
    This is the point I was making about what info we should even be privy too.

    Hey John! Why arent you running that buff ? Why arent you debuffing those players ?
  • @Rune_relic I think you are right that they can never exist in harmony & the game will either cater to the min/max build supremacy stuff as mmo's always have.
    Or those that seek adventure,want combat to be immersive & have room for creativity & freedom of choice(build)
    There is no in between choice.Its either about the community and socialness & content of the game
    Or the importance of skill lines,rotations and elitist supremacy stuff taking the forefront ;
    gameplay mechanics transcending above the community ,content and the actual virtual world.

    maybe the aura idea of @Rune_relic has something to it
    when combining it with the stages
    The aura would have to be very subtle though,more like an outline,like;
    <img src="https://whyigame.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/hota.jpg" alt="" />

    So you'd have green for healthy
    Yellow for injured
    Orange for badly wounded
    Red for near dead

    To each of these stages certain character behavior & different animations would be linked
    A badly wounded player would be easier to stagger/dismantle than a healthy one
    Players then get the options to keep the outline visible at all times,or if they want it to lit for a few seconds if they reach a different stage of character health
  • [quote quote=2469]I
    “Top proficiency” is valued more by min/maxers.I don’t want a right “rotation” of skills .I would like it to depend more on using them at the right time
    Not “you have to use skills in this order(this build) or you are not proficient enough to join our group”. I’m so tired of that.
    Maybe survival games are right for me because I want environment,position and timing to have real impact.
    If its just checking on cooldowns to find out which rotation does most damage,it is plain boring in my opinion.
    These ability rotations have nothing to do with “best choice in a fight” its just applying same order of skills over & over,as you enter/exit combat.
    [/quote]

    In pve there will always be method that is most efficent, does most dps or is most tanky or does most healing there is no way you can avoid that. But saying that position timing and tactics dosent matter in raiding and its only about doing the max dps is not how it has been in any game iw been involved, its about learning the encounter and adjusting max dps for it. Not that i care much about pve myself but ofcourse as mmo gamer iw done that too.

    If you get mad cause people want to be the best then you should not play with those people and instead go play with casuall roleplayers, i dont understand why are you so mad? Clearly you arent the type that wants to be the best and win so why would you play with people like that ? Its not issue with mmo communities its issue with wich part of community u are grouping up with.

    Hud is important because if you want competitive game there needs to be skill involved in managing and comprehending all buffs, debuffs, cooldowns, positions, health and manabars, ability mechanics and so on. Simply have it so that you can turn it off if you are a roleplayer and are playing for the visuals and community and not trying to compete and be better than others. Also it would be preferrable if players can edit hud and ui as much as possible to fit both their visual and practical effiency needs. Simply make strong player customization and we dont have to argue here cause everyone can make the display to their needs and taste, thats how it has been in more or less all recent mmos anyway.

    [quote quote=2537]Combat molded with the HUD makes combat too simplistic,rotations and skill lines makes combat repetitive;
    Then it becomes about finding THE top proficient rotation formula that works over and over and over.
    Player choice is no longer a thing ,because you just won’t be accepted if you don’t have the top proficient build for your role.
    Hence why I said players are becoming so concerned with gameplay mechanics that we are losing the socialness of the game.

    Can’t really remember an mmo that actually had challenging combat,sure pvp sometimes adds a moment where you feel the thrill when someone jumps you..Still;combat itself lacks impact
    [/quote]

    Yes you find the top formula and then u need to adjust it to all scenarios in pve, the scenarios are different and thats why you dont always do the same rotation. In pvp ofcourse its never like that cause you are always fighting against different classes in different numbers and enviroments and against different kinds of players and you need to always adjust your playstyle.

    You say that mmos never gave you a challenge yet every single of your posts you are yber butthurt that some elitist jerks were mean to you and told you they dont wanna party with you cause you cant make as much dps as other people. Personally i was always at top in all games i playd but i was always a pvp player and did as little pve as possible, only did it if there was some items or skills to obtain that i need to be at top in pvp.

    Also speaking of interface this forum also needs a rework dont like it at all reading posts and commenting is such a pain to my eyes = /
  • Sure there is no way in past mmo's most proficient can be avoided because mmo's have always catered to the min/max build supremacy stuff .I guess I should just avoid mmo's then...
    Combat could be overhauled so that other aspects of the game are taken to the forefront though,like if " using environment" becomes a thing in combat scenarios...
    The only raid bosses that are any fun is if some parts of the floor vanish on impact and if the boss has interesting mechanics (please quote the part about raids its hard to pick up otherwise).
    Adjusting could also mean investigating how to kill the boss,it could also involve using the environment instead of finding ways to max damage it.
    Why can't it be required to be the smartest to win instead of max dps to win ..what does that "best to win?" even mean..
    I am not mad as you try to insinuate.Its just that i've come at the point where i'm so sick of the ongoing mentality that i'll just pass a game that caters to the min/max supremacy stuff.
  • @Shinigamiqt all relevant....right upto the 'you are uber butthurt' part.
    To add to the usual, typical and predictable scrub/trash references.

    The problem is highly competitive players demand that they are rewarded for...well...being hyper competitive and....the best.
    So then the game caters to hyper competitive people ....at the expense of the non-competitive people.
    And then because the hyper competitive ones are the offensive bullying type, they normally get their way too.
    So the game drifts ever further away from a social game to an antisocial one.

    Welcome to the next toxic wonderland.
  • and the way past mmo's are build.you don't really have a choice other than to get sucked into that min/maxing
    if you want to be allowed to participate in endgame content,that is the way they are build; it can't be avoided.
    you can either ignore it and accept being discriminated,roll an alt or quit the game at that point
  • [quote quote=2586]
    you can either ignore it and accept being discriminated,roll an alt or quit the game at that point.

    [/quote]


    or you can group up with other like minding people such as yourself and enjoy the game the way you like. not all groups have strict requirements for joining.
  • Still it doesn't take away that what the game caters to and continues to create content& mechanics for;the elite min/maxers.
    HUD molded combat makes combat too bland to keep it exciting for long.Combat is a big part of the game.
    Perhaps one of the reasons non of the mmos are able to capture me for long at this point
  • [quote quote=2590]Still it doesn’t take away that what the game caters to and continues to create content& mechanics for;the elite min/maxers.
    HUD molded combat makes combat too bland to keep it exciting for long.Combat is a big part of the game.
    Perhaps one of the reasons non of the mmos are able to capture me for long at this point

    [/quote}

    games cater to the larger population base what ever that may be.
  • @shunex that explains why they have tried to copy world of warcraft for more than a decade now.
    There comes a time perhaps that the larger population is sick of it too & if they then keep catering to what they think will draw the larger population on past success,success is unsure...
    People like to grab at what they are used to and what they think they know & is the best.But it doesn't mean it is a success formula that will always capture them.
    Most of them probably are not sure what they want and wonder why they keep hopping from mmo to mmo endlessly,while not a single one of them is able to capture them
    So they shouldn't cater to what has drawn the largest population in the past.I don't believe that is always the way to success
  • @Rune_Relic

    Being friendly in forums has never been my thing ; D

    And like keep in mind what we know so far that guilds can destroy cities and make alliances with other guilds etc. There needs be skillcap, the combat cant be too simple otherwise cool features such as sieges will lose all meaning they need to be highly competitive and drive people to get as good as possible. Sometimes that also means meta gets reinvented and people make counters or for example at higher levels of scaling the typicall max dps rotations can change etc or people could affect it with abilities/skills they choose/augument with this games class system and maybe for example they want to choose utility or survivability over pure damage sometimes. I think the double class system is great idea and it has amazing possibilities to make the combat so that everyone dosent use the same skills in same order wich you guys are concerned of. I mean even in existing games like wow (and im talking mostly about pvp but this applies to pve on smaller scale too) players can affect to the playstyle with skills they choose and not everyone is doing the same. Like for example when i was playing wow all hunters were playing beastmaster at the time but i got gladiator as survival hunter cause i playd a comp with my friends wich was effective against many popular comps, that utilized survival hunter and didnt work as well with beastmaster.
  • Perhaps we should leave this thread...at least for a few days.
    We arent really making much progress, just generating heat.
  • [quote quote=2594]Perhaps we should leave this thread…at least for a few days.
    We arent really making much progress, just generating heat.

    [/quote]


    hey look we agree on some thing :P
  • hehe Nice :D
  • if you say there needs to be skillcap it implies there need to be a level of thought required to play successfully.
    Skill on itself means;
    "an ability to do an activity or job well, especially because you have practised it"
    Now where does that go if players tell you at the endgame "copy this EXACT skill line order and this build before joining us otherwise you can't"
    Thus skill lines and rotations have no actual skill depth to them.
    Their just Fotm ;you do not get skilled,you just copy a formula that works best.
    And that formula might be countered or changed overtime as the game evolves and gets patched.
    Finding out which build works is the only real skill involved.

    If we truly want to give players the choice to show real practiced combat skill ,we need combat depth.
    Which does not rely on rotations but actual skilled inventivity and intuition
    where there is use of environment,great freedom of choice & creativity in combat
    Also set in a harsh unforgiven environment so players can't just rush through.
    Many new factors players have to recognize and respond to,different for each combat scenario.
    So if you say "there needs to be skillcap,the combat can't be too smple otherwise cool features such as sieges lose all meaning"
    I don't understand why you'd defend game mechanics and max dps rotations that require no actual skill at all.
    So in my view that is exactly what simplifies it to the dull combat we became used to from previous mmo's.
    I don't want combat to be simple either but I believe what you champion for is exactly what makes it cookie-cutter-simple with all the required rotations for max dmg or whatever role
    @Shinigamiqt

    I also think the double class is a step in the right direction.but that is something else,and on itself,not enough to make combat exciting.
    Altough it will certainly help with the variety and creativity part.

    You know what would actually add depth to combat for example?
    That players would have to adjust their combat strategy for each season because it brings new challenges on the battlefield.
    All the adapting would require great practice and thus great skill
  • I think min/max affects the top end raiders more than the average player. Then again I have been away from any serious raiding environment for along long time.

    I think builds matter less in WoW now? Since the talent tree is so dumbed-down it doesn't really matter now. I'm sure there are specs in all games that will give you extra 100 or 200 DPS, but I think that is relevant to only the top 1% players.

    One thing in Archeage I like is that there are many viable specs. Sure the main ones like Darkrunner, Primeval, Enigmatist, Abolisher and Clerics are the go to classes, but you can totally enjoy the game and be competitive with other combinations.

    For now I think we don't have to worry too much about class combo and min/maxing since we don't have much information :D

    Also there is nothing better than beating the cookie cutter spec with an unpopular build muahahaha! Then again people say I am sick because I would level as a resto shaman during BC and WotLK
  • [quote quote=2593]<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/rune_relic/" rel="nofollow">@rune_relic</a>
    And like keep in mind what we know so far that guilds can destroy cities and make alliances with other guilds etc.
    [/quote]

    I think this is gonna be huge problem. Lets compare it with silkroad online where 8 guilds can make alliances. Lets say each guild can have max of 100 people. Thats 800 people and also there is question what is max population on 1 server. Now imagine top 8 guilds make alliance, what can you do if you are not in one of those guilds? Really nothing because they will have exclusive nodes, destroy every town/city/metropolis they want and you are stuck (in some way). Players in these guilds have advantage ingame. I really hope alliance can contain only 3 guilds so we can have some real competition.
  • "Maybe we should leave the thread for a few days" Fuck that, I'm fanning the flames. Let's go boys.

    So I'm not quite sure how this thread devolved to people insisting that seeing your health bar equates to you being an elitist or a min-maxer. I tried to read how it got to this point but I got a headache after the idiotic assumptions, grasping at straws, and failure to understand basic gaming terminologies.

    So to begin with:
    Min-maxing does not mean what most of you seem to think it means. Being able to see a health bar does not make one a min-maxer. Min-maxing is, as @shunex put it, minimizing useless talents, skills, equipment, attributes, etc in order to maximize useful talents, skills, equipment, attributes, etc.

    There's nothing wrong with it, everybody does it - even casuals. Doesn't quite take a genius to think "Hmm, I'm a tank so I'll take items with Endurance to raise my health as opposed to items that have Strength which increases my damage that I don't really need to focus on doing."

    Secondly:
    Elitists. Nothing wrong with em and there's nothing you can do to avoid having elitists in a game. Every single game with multiplayer has them.

    "Elitists" (I fucking hate that term) are not, for the most part, hate-filled, egotistical, meta-humping assholes that 90% of casuals believe them to be. Elitists are people who play the game competently and want to make progress by not fucking up 24/7 with shitty groups. As a result they surround themselves with like-minded players and form a guild so they can find more players that share their mentality, skill, and drive for success.

    You DON'T have to play with them. You ARE NOT forced to play at their level. You do NOT have to quit the game because they exist. There are much, much, MUCH more casual guilds that go at an easy pace. A few of these causal guilds can even catch up to some elitist guilds (although it's rare.)

    If wanting to see health bars and having a comprehensible UI is now considered being an "elitist" then the quality of MMO players stooped to a new level of bad.

    @Rune_relic In the many years I've been competitively PvPing, never once have I ever shamed new players for being "scrubs" or for not wanting to be the best of the best. Nor have any of the many competitive players I know. In fact, it's the complete opposite and leads me to believe you've never once had a proper interaction with a competitive player (Today's your lucky day though, cause here I am!) or ever been apart of a competitive group.

    I personally love helping new players and spend most of my time in most MMOs in the newbie area handing out free gold and gear to new players and giving them advice if they ask for it, while I sit in queue for thirty-million hours waiting for the god damn BG queue to finally pop.

    The only players we trash on, are the ones who insist on being amazing but are actually terrible. The ones who shame people for wanting to learn. The ones who expect to be carried but once they get kicked for not contributing to the group they cry "elitism!"

    A perfect example of this would be the "John" character you made. "Hey John! Why aren't you running this debuff?"

    I've had many scenarios of this happen throughout my years of "leadership" (I use that term very loosely.) One of the two outcomes will always occur:

    1) John is fairly new and didn't know he should be running that debuff. We tell him why and when he should use it and explain to him just how much it helps the group. We then duel him so he can perfect the use of whatever debuff is in question. John takes this newly found knowledge and continues learning his class. After consistent display of skill, adaption, and willingness to learn, we invite him to the guild.

    OR

    2) John insists he's the best player in the galaxy and that using the debuff is for "tryhards" and refuses to hear us out on our reasoning for why we want him to use the ability and then expects us to carry him (These are the players we trash on.) John is then promptly removed from the group and replaced with somebody willing to learn to play at a competitive level.

    How removing someone that isn't contributing a form of "elitism" is beyond me but I suppose I am dealing with people that think having a health bar means you're a min-maxing elitist.

    "Any idea of free will is sacrificed." Nope. Most competitive guilds strongly encourage people to experiment with new builds and see if they can find anything that works great for both them and the group they're running with. However, we also discourage players from choosing builds that don't benefit the group. We value people with a functioning brain - not dimwits that can't think outside of the box or play without a cookie-cutter meta build they found on google.

    Also for the inevitable "But in your john comparison" if the debuff we want John to use is the most beneficial for the group and he doesn't know, then we tell him to use it. If John is using a different debuff in it's place because he's experimenting with a new build that may benefit the group if he can get it right then he's encouraged to continue experimenting. (But not during competitive play, he should do it in his own time or when we don't care about being competitive. Yes, there are times we just dick around and play naked for giggles.)

    @Tipsytoo They can exist in harmony. Most competitive-minded players don't care for fighting against players who don't care about min-maxing, or being the best, or whatever - we prefer fighting other players who are like us because we want to have a fun, challenging fight - not steam roll PUGs. You guys are so worried about "min-maxing elitists" when in reality you'll rarely interact with us in the game world since you clearly have no ambition or desire to be in the competitive scene.

    And again, as stated before, there is absolutely freedom of choice in builds for competitive players, so long as the builds are VIABLE, in terms of group play. A lot of us also like doing our own thing and going solo, making builds that suit us ALONE for when we want to do 1vs2, 1vs3, or 1vsX , with this playstyle also being encouraged.

    There also is absolutely an in-between choice, people aren't robots who ALWAYS want to play the same way 24/7. I'm very competitive but also sometimes just want to chill and dick around and socialize and be immersed. And it's the same with everyone I know. Sometimes we want to just skip dialogue and get to the grinding, other times we just wanna chill and go slow.

    "Why can't it be the smartest to win instead of the highest DPS to win." Because it already is that way, I can dunk on most players in full BiS gear while I'm half-naked simply because the enemy player is too stupid to stop backpedaling, keyboard turning, or utilizing their abilities incorrectly.

    Same goes for PvE, a lot of boss encounters in Guild Wars 2 for example, require you to use your brain, simply doing the most damage won't do anything to the boss if you can't figure out the mechanics. Take a look at the Triple Trouble boss from that game, pugs rarely ever beat that boss because it's not at all about doing the most damage - in fact if you do too much DPS you can end up failing the boss attempt. Another example, The Shatterer, if you focus on only doing damage you will never kill that boss due to the mechanics of the fight.

    /rant

    But back on topic: health bars aren't bad, a UI is needed, a moveable UI is needed even more, visual cues are good but CANNOT be the only system in the game to figure out the status of your character, removing player inspection elements will not remove the min-maxing, and yes, I should be allowed to see what buffs a player is rolling with and what debuffs a player is affected by.

    And on a last note on this long-as-fuck, probably super unorganized, messy post because I'm terrible with the forums:
    @shinigamiqt I like your bdo character, 9/10.

    edit: is there a medal for having the longest post on the forums?
  • I agree with Shunex. I prefer Combat HUD, since I like to know exactly where I'm at in the fight.
  • [quote quote=2658]“Maybe we should leave the thread for a few days” Fuck that, I’m fanning the flames. Let’s go boys.

    So I’m not quite sure how this thread devolved to people insisting that seeing your health bar equates to you being an elitist or a min-maxer. I tried to read how it got to this point but I got a headache after the idiotic assumptions, grasping at straws, and failure to understand basic gaming terminologies.

    So to begin with:
    Min-maxing does not mean what most of you seem to think it means. Being able to see a health bar does not make one a min-maxer. Min-maxing is, as <a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/shunex/" rel="nofollow">@shunex</a> put it, minimizing useless talents, skills, equipment, attributes, etc in order to maximize useful talents, skills, equipment, attributes, etc.

    There’s nothing wrong with it, everybody does it – even casuals. Doesn’t quite take a genius to think “Hmm, I’m a tank so I’ll take items with Endurance to raise my health as opposed to items that have Strength which increases my damage that I don’t really need to focus on doing.”

    Secondly:
    Elitists. Nothing wrong with em and there’s nothing you can do to avoid having elitists in a game. Every single game with multiplayer has them.

    “Elitists” (I fucking hate that term) are not, for the most part, hate-filled, egotistical, meta-humping assholes that 90% of casuals believe them to be. Elitists are people who play the game competently and want to make progress by not fucking up 24/7 with shitty groups. As a result they surround themselves with like-minded players and form a guild so they can find more players that share their mentality, skill, and drive for success.

    You DON’T have to play with them. You ARE NOT forced to play at their level. You do NOT have to quit the game because they exist. There are much, much, MUCH more casual guilds that go at an easy pace. A few of these causal guilds can even catch up to some elitist guilds (although it’s rare.)

    If wanting to see health bars and having a comprehensible UI is now considered being an “elitist” then the quality of MMO players stooped to a new level of bad.

    <a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/rune_relic/" rel="nofollow">@rune_relic</a> In the many years I’ve been competitively PvPing, never once have I ever shamed new players for being “scrubs” or for not wanting to be the best of the best. Nor have any of the many competitive players I know. In fact, it’s the complete opposite and leads me to believe you’ve never once had a proper interaction with a competitive player (Today’s your lucky day though, cause here I am!) or ever been apart of a competitive group.

    I personally love helping new players and spend most of my time in most MMOs in the newbie area handing out free gold and gear to new players and giving them advice if they ask for it, while I sit in queue for thirty-million hours waiting for the god damn BG queue to finally pop.

    The only players we trash on, are the ones who insist on being amazing but are actually terrible. The ones who shame people for wanting to learn. The ones who expect to be carried but once they get kicked for not contributing to the group they cry “elitism!”

    A perfect example of this would be the “John” character you made. “Hey John! Why aren’t you running this debuff?”

    I’ve had many scenarios of this happen throughout my years of “leadership” (I use that term very loosely.) One of the two outcomes will always occur:

    1) John is fairly new and didn’t know he should be running that debuff. We tell him why and when he should use it and explain to him just how much it helps the group. We then duel him so he can perfect the use of whatever debuff is in question. John takes this newly found knowledge and continues learning his class. After consistent display of skill, adaption, and willingness to learn, we invite him to the guild.

    OR

    2) John insists he’s the best player in the galaxy and that using the debuff is for “tryhards” and refuses to hear us out on our reasoning for why we want him to use the ability and then expects us to carry him (These are the players we trash on.) John is then promptly removed from the group and replaced with somebody willing to learn to play at a competitive level.

    How removing someone that isn’t contributing a form of “elitism” is beyond me but I suppose I am dealing with people that think having a health bar means you’re a min-maxing elitist.

    “Any idea of free will is sacrificed.” Nope. Most competitive guilds strongly encourage people to experiment with new builds and see if they can find anything that works great for both them and the group they’re running with. However, we also discourage players from choosing builds that don’t benefit the group. We value people with a functioning brain – not dimwits that can’t think outside of the box or play without a cookie-cutter meta build they found on google.

    Also for the inevitable “But in your john comparison” if the debuff we want John to use is the most beneficial for the group and he doesn’t know, then we tell him to use it. If John is using a different debuff in it’s place because he’s experimenting with a new build that may benefit the group if he can get it right then he’s encouraged to continue experimenting. (But not during competitive play, he should do it in his own time or when we don’t care about being competitive. Yes, there are times we just dick around and play naked for giggles.)

    <a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/tipsytoo/" rel="nofollow">@tipsytoo</a> They can exist in harmony. Most competitive-minded players don’t care for fighting against players who don’t care about min-maxing, or being the best, or whatever – we prefer fighting other players who are like us because we want to have a fun, challenging fight – not steam roll PUGs. You guys are so worried about “min-maxing elitists” when in reality you’ll rarely interact with us in the game world since you clearly have no ambition or desire to be in the competitive scene.

    And again, as stated before, there is absolutely freedom of choice in builds for competitive players, so long as the builds are VIABLE, in terms of group play. A lot of us also like doing our own thing and going solo, making builds that suit us ALONE for when we want to do 1vs2, 1vs3, or 1vsX , with this playstyle also being encouraged.

    There also is absolutely an in-between choice, people aren’t robots who ALWAYS want to play the same way 24/7. I’m very competitive but also sometimes just want to chill and dick around and socialize and be immersed. And it’s the same with everyone I know. Sometimes we want to just skip dialogue and get to the grinding, other times we just wanna chill and go slow.

    “Why can’t it be the smartest to win instead of the highest DPS to win.” Because it already is that way, I can dunk on most players in full BiS gear while I’m half-naked simply because the enemy player is too stupid to stop backpedaling, keyboard turning, or utilizing their abilities incorrectly.

    Same goes for PvE, a lot of boss encounters in Guild Wars 2 for example, require you to use your brain, simply doing the most damage won’t do anything to the boss if you can’t figure out the mechanics. Take a look at the Triple Trouble boss from that game, pugs rarely ever beat that boss because it’s not at all about doing the most damage – in fact if you do too much DPS you can end up failing the boss attempt. Another example, The Shatterer, if you focus on only doing damage you will never kill that boss due to the mechanics of the fight.

    /rant

    But back on topic: health bars aren’t bad, a UI is needed, a moveable UI is needed even more, visual cues are good but CANNOT be the only system in the game to figure out the status of your character, removing player inspection elements will not remove the min-maxing, and yes, I should be allowed to see what buffs a player is rolling with and what debuffs a player is affected by.

    And on a last note on this long-as-fuck, probably super unorganized, messy post because I’m terrible with the forums:
    <a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/shinigamiqt/" rel="nofollow">@shinigamiqt</a> I like your bdo character, 9/10.

    edit: is there a medal for having the longest post on the forums?

    [/quote]

    holycrap that was a read... and yeah you deserve a medal for having the longest post, but reading it deserves so much more ;P
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