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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
And trying to compete dosent make you elitist and there is no reason why everyone should strive to be a special snowflake that uses different build than others just for the sake of it. That being sayd its not that hard to have options, the games iw playd youw had options and with the double class system i think there is plenty of room to make it so that people can make uniqueu character builds and stay competitive.
But back on topic: health bars aren’t bad, a UI is needed, a moveable UI is needed even more,
[/quote]
Sure, if you just want to play the the same game you've played 1000 times before.
I'm not sure where the extremist statement was made that we don't need a "health bar", because there are some things a game just needs to communicate to players, especially with rules-based combat.
But I think there is much to be gained by leaving more things implicit rather than explicit. I think a game is better if it doesn't fixate on displaying a byzantine stat like "Glancing Blow Crit Chance Rating" rather than leaving it under the hood. That does more harm than good, and for people that simply want to play the game, it's a barrier they think they have to overcome - and they don't.
The min/maxers can still figure all of that out if they really think it's important, but my opinion - leave it off the UI.
You cant in one sentence say people are encouraged to come up with new ideas and try new things...
....and then in the other tell them to do it your way or be kicked, because you know better.
One is cooperative. One is domineering. And not only have I experienced it first hand, I have had endless arguments with hard core players that not only admit to it but defend it vehemently.
Its is the Predator mentality. The supremacy junky. They must control everyone and everything around them in ever finer detail.
Like some self proclaimed commander in a military force.
You aint conning anyone. Especially me.
But back on topic: health bars aren’t bad, a UI is needed, a moveable UI is needed even more,
</blockquote>
Sure, if you just want to play the the same game you’ve played 1000 times before.
[/quote]
i didn't say that lol, you quoted the wrong person....
And trying to compete dosent make you elitist and <strong>there is no reason why everyone should strive to be a special snowflake that uses different build than others just for the sake of it</strong>. That being sayd its not that hard to have options, the games iw playd youw had options and with the double class system i think there is plenty of room to make it so that people can make uniqueu character builds and stay competitive.
[/quote]
And if all builds were balanced, all builds would be competitive...and your 'special snowflake' phobia would not exist.
You cant in one sentence say people are encouraged to come up with new ideas and try new things…
….and then in the other tell them to do it your way or be kicked, because you know better.
One is cooperative. One is domineering. And not only have I experienced it first hand, I have had endless arguments with hard core players that not only admit to it but defend it vehemently.
Its is the Predator mentality. The supremacy junky. They must control everyone and everything around them in ever finer detail.
Like some self proclaimed commander in a military force.
You aint conning anyone. Especially me.
[/quote]
He totally can and he was right about what he sayd. If you are trying to compete and you on purpose gimp yourself with build and cant compensate it with skill its naturall competitive players might not want to play with you on their side, on the other hand you can figure out alternative ways to play or for example ways that counter meta. Its not just in mmos its in games like lol and irl competitive sports alike. But it has nothing to do with HUD tho, wich is most definetly needed for a fluid mmo.
Lol is a good non mmo example. In higher elo meta champions are really popular but there is tons of one trick ponys or people that play spesific champions that arent in meta at all but they know how to play their picks and have much more experience with them than metawhores so they will be competitive even when their champions arent as good. Its the same in mmos like wow so stop whining about min maxing and people trying to be competitive.
[quote quote=2708]<blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-rythms-vs-combat-ui/page/5/#post-2702" rel="nofollow">Shunex wrote:</a></div>
But back on topic: health bars aren’t bad, a UI is needed, a moveable UI is needed even more,
</blockquote>
But I think there is much to be gained by leaving more things implicit rather than explicit. I think a game is better if it doesn’t fixate on displaying a byzantine stat like “Glancing Blow Crit Chance Rating” rather than leaving it under the hood. That does more harm than good, and for people that simply want to play the game, it’s a barrier they think they have to overcome – and they don’t.
The min/maxers can still figure all of that out if they really think it’s important, but my opinion – leave it off the UI.
[/quote]
Also i dont aggree with this. I Hope that AOC is extremely transparent with their calculations regarding combat abilities, drops, enchanting and everything else in the game. I think it was one of the biggest issues in BDO that they made it really hard for people to make up strategies cause they didnt give players access to any calculations about the game. I think if AOC wants to embrace the community they should work with their dedicated wikia and release all calculations so players can use them to make up strategies and be as efficent as possible.
And like i sayd previously its pretty much a norm that in mmos you can customize ui. And like AOC keeps sayings its mmo by players for players im sure they will focus on making strong player ui cuztomization, wich isnt anything out of the ordinary in the first place its pretty default.
Its clear though that everyone else aggrees that hud is necessary except <a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/tipsytoo/" rel="nofollow">@tipsytoo</a>
And trying to compete dosent make you elitist and <strong>there is no reason why everyone should strive to be a special snowflake that uses different build than others just for the sake of it</strong>. That being sayd its not that hard to have options, the games iw playd youw had options and with the double class system i think there is plenty of room to make it so that people can make uniqueu character builds and stay competitive.
</blockquote>
And if all builds were balanced, all builds would be competitive…and your ‘special snowflake’ phobia would not exist.
[/quote]
Like i sayd i dont have any special snowflake phobia, infact i got gladiator in wow as survival hunter in 2 seasons when hunter was playd exclusively as beastmaster. But something is always going to be more popular than others its just simple fact. There is always going to be comps talents etc that are better than others in generall. Ofcourse you will then need to take in account counters and changes in meta like scaling etc, but always some classes skills item stats etc are going to be more popular. Im not against balancing obliviously, i just think its **** to get so salty because some people didnt want to party with you because you werent able to keep up with them, wich tipsytoo was crying about for several pages.
"health bar equates to being an elitist or min-maxer" Talking about grasping at straws & not even comprehending what has been said
"Idiotic assumptions" lets keep it positive
Talking about the negative effect HUD have on the variety of combat scenario's,skill bars making them repetitive rotations
&the immersion in combat itself;the HUD layered over that (see the healers that have to do the HUD game while rest get all the fun for example)
I simply said healthbars extract the thrill from combat because it gives certainty,NOT that healthbars equate to being elitist or min-maxers as you try to lay in my mouth @Tremonti
Min maxers are another pebble in the shoe.
The importance of gear and min maxing has to be eliminated from the game otherwise it will just turn into another toxic wasteland.
To eliminate the toxic element of min maxing we need an advantage/disadvantage system like crowfall has
" Advantages and Disadvantages are elements that further customize a character. They represent specific talents, traits or backstory elements that change a character in unique ways.
For example: “Eagle Eye” might give an increase to accuracy with ranged weapons. “Dim-witted” might lower Intellect, but give points that players can send to further increase your Strength.
Advantages cost points, disadvantages give additional points to spend. There is a limit to the number of Advantages and Disadvantages players can have."
On top of that we need to eliminate the importance of gear or at least add curses to powerful equipment to keep an equal playingfield.
We need balance and we need to eliminate the importance of game mechanics and return the socialness& community back to the forefront.
Otherwise the MMO gerne is doomed forever.
Goodbye
The importance of gear has to be eliminated from the game otherwise it will just turn into another toxic wasteland.
We need to eliminate the importance of game mechanics and return the socialness& community back to the forefront.
Otherwise the MMO gerne is doomed forever.
Goodbye
[/quote]
@Tipsytoo
Yes lets remove game mechanics and gear, that sounds amazing concept for mmo. Instead we can roll a dice to see who wins fights and have weekly lotteries to decide what cities are getting destroyed or uppgraded. Cant wait to try this amazing reinvented mmo model.
I have other great ideas as well like tetris online and bomberman online! We just need to tweak them a little bit so that players who are more mechanically skilled wont win.
@Lethality Having a UI does not mean you've played the same game a 1000 times. By that comparison Dark Age of Camelot is the same as Destiny, or League of Legends is the same as Meridian 59.
@Rune_relic Maaaan, I wrote that WHOLE paragraph about the inevitable "B-BUT IN YOUR JOHN COMPARISON" and yet still here you are failing to grasp what I said. What a waste. Anyway, I absolutely can, just look at what @shinigamiqt said. Also, re-read my post, I clearly stated:
"If John is EXPERIMENTING with a NEW BUILD that may benefit the group if he can get it right, then he is ENCOURAGED to do so IN HIS OWN TIME."
How do you think those meta builds get out there? Because we make them after hours of experimenting, dueling, and solo-play. Also:
"There is freedom of choice so long as the builds are VIABLE, in terms of group play." ALTERNATIVELY: "A lot of us also like doing our own thing and making builds that suit us ALONE for when we're doing solo play."
"You aint conning anybody." It was never my intention to "con" anybody wtf lmao, my intention was to clear the air of ignorance in a more aggressive manner.
Look, if you want to be the player that goes with the luke-warm-noodle-slap spell that does 3 damage as opposed to the 500 damage meteor, then by all means go ahead - just don't blame those pesky elitists when nobody wants to play with you (not even casuals.)
You cry and cry about how it's unfair that people ask you to use a useful OR EVEN JUST VIABLE ability so the group can progress, but at the same time you forget that it's unfair to them to have to carry someone that refuses to stop being a liability. Hate to break it to ya (not really) but MMOs are, surprise, about teamwork.
"If all builds are balanced then all builds can be competitive." As much as I would love for it to be this way, it simply isn't. Balance isn't a simple-to-resolve issue and you have to take into account more things than just 1vs1. Now, all builds can absolutely be *viable* - but all being balanced and on par? Could be a fairly stress-induced nightmare for the developers.
@Tipsytoo
"The ones that want EVERY piece of information for top proficiency prefer the HUD way. Min/maxers want it because all that matters to them is being the best and winning." "The line between elitist and min/maxer seems to be very thin to me."
^ I did not put words in your mouth, you literally said it yourself.
"See the healer that has to play the HUD game while everyone else has fun."
I've been exclusively playing healer since 2006 and never felt that way, especially because it takes me less than a second to glance at the health and status of myself and 1-15 other players. As a healer I've always felt engaged because it's not just "Looking at a HUD" and healing. We're given a wide array of support utilities that can be used offensively and are of utmost importance (Mana drain, dispel, CC, silence, etc.) We're always the #1 target for the enemy team which is always fun because it guarantees I get some good fights where I'm outnumbered, which I like.
However in PvE you probably have a point, in my defense however I don't care about PvE because regardless of your role I can't imagine beating on a scripted mob where you know all of it's attacks being "fun." But to each their own, I suppose.
So I'm not quite sure if I read the advantage/disadvantage system correctly but on the surface it sounds like the epitome of min-maxing. Spending disadvantage points into things my character wouldn't need and then in return gaining points to spend in things I do need? Correct me if I'm wrong.
@shinigamiqt & tipystoo
I do agree that in PvP the importance of gear should be reduced, I'd like to see skill shine as opposed to backpedaling shitters one-shotting people simply because their gear is so good. But then you piss off the "I worked hard for this gear I want to feel like I'm getting stronger" crowd, and they have a fair point. They SHOULD be rewarded for the time they put in.
But also at the same time players should not be allowed to make terrible mistake after terrible mistake in PvP and get away with it simply because their gear is so good.
However, for the rest of what you said, @Tipsytoo... how 'bout no? Not sure what MMOs you've been playing but the social and community aspects are still a (large) factor to this day (just look at these forums, specifically the guild recruitment section, there isn't even a game out, yet here we are socializing and making guilds.)
Guilds still exist, people still group up for leveling, dungeons, or to make a premade for PvP. Also MMOs have been a toxic wasteland since the very beginning, gear has little to do with it.
"Otherwise the MMO genre is doomed." Oh please, people have been saying this since the late 90s / early 2000s.
@Shunex I'm all out of medals but I can give you a banana sticker
Also some people thrive in toxic wasteland, like me. After i own you in pvp i will come to forums afterwards to do it again thats how i roll.
[IMG]http://imgur.com/a/vBTGF[/IMG]
Also regarding stat numbers, Archeage has a very simple stat page, but you can always expand it to see the details. I think there is nothing wrong with being able to see all the information. I would rather have more stat info than less. On a side note, I never look at the extra stat page.
Oh and skill rotation, I think skill rotation will exist as long we have skill cooldown. I mean it might not be skill rotation, but you will always be hitting the same button over and over. Sure you can mix thing up with active parry, block and dodge, but in the end you will still use the same skill in a semi rotation or priority method. Maybe if the game combat style was like Mount & Blade we can remove skill rotation for good, but we know the combat will be more like GW2.
BTW is there an MMO without a UI and only uses visual cues for combat? I'm just curious how it works out.
However, on that note, I do agree that a fresh alt shouldn't be on par with somebody's main, obviously, nor should a new player that hasn't invested the time to learn the game, their class, the pvp, nor get somewhat geared.
But, as I've stated before, I would like to see a balance between gear and skill *to an extent*. You say that a new player or alt shouldn't be on the same playing field as a hardcore main - and I agree with that, but it goes in more ways than one. A player who has been exclusively PvPing since release who is lower geared versus a player who has done nothing but raid to get the BiS gear without ever learning how to PvP. (Let's just say the game's been released for like a year or so.)
By your logic, the PvE'er should win because of his gear, but he has 0 experience in PvP compared to the weaker-geared hardcore PvPer who, again in your logic, should win because he's the experienced one fighting against a new player who hasn't put in time to learn anything about PvP.
New, Geared Player vs Experienced, Weaker Geared Player. By "weaker geared" I don't mean a massive black and white difference like full grey and greens vs full legendary - A player THAT poorly geared SHOULD get dunked on. Rather, full purple T1 vs full purple T2 with a legendary weapon. Sure, the legendary weapon is scary and absolutely should hit like a truck, but if you can't even figure out how to use the weapon (let alone your class) in a PvP scenario, then why should you win? It's like expecting a toddler armed with an automatic rifle to win against a navy seal wielding a knife.
The gear is still relevant, since if the gear gap is TOO large then the geared player should win, and if the gear gap isn't that large the weaker geared player still has to be careful and put his skill to the test.
I guess a way to balance this would be to just add PvP gear à la WoW & WAR (inb4 I trigger someone and they scream "B-BUT WOW CLONE!" at me) so we're not stuck with getting outgeared because we dare have the gall to play the gamemode we enjoy (PvP) as opposed to picking flowers and whacking scripted NPCs.
I was gonna bring up a topic on alts and how they should work but I feel as if we're already getting way off-topic. Now hold my beer as I go further off-topic.
For the "toxic" bit (I hate that term) I wouldn't expect anything else. Communities that are TOO friendly feel faux and... cringe-y at times. Also a toxic player will be brutally honest if you fucking suck (most of the time at least) making it easier to improve. Hell, all of the people I've befriended in MMOs we started off calling each other shitters and ****. I mean we still do - just in jest... mostly...
@Mofu I don't think so, none come to mind and google shows nothing. I can't imagine it working well to be honest, MMOs can be chaotic, especially with large scale PvP where people blob ontop of each other. Having to try to look at your character to figure out what the hell is going on would be a nightmare - if anything it'd probably be more distracting than an invasive UI, eg:
With UI: In a massive fight with spells going off everywhere and shit, can't see my character but I can quickly glance at my UI to see what my health is and what ailments I have.
Without UI: How much health do I have? What debuffs are on me? I can't tell because I can't even fucking see my character.
Although I suppose it would be a good natural deterrent to zergs and blobs.
It means they could appear in different form or shape in such a way that content becomes relevant again.
Like when seasons would inpact the battlefield,gear could have properties that alter heat control of the body ,rather than damage.
It is a different FOCUS that is needed that shifts the balance
@Tremonti
All abilities need to be viable.Not oly in group play
If players dictate which abilities another player should use there is no player freedom nor balance.
Just some elite min/maxers being asses I don't want to associate with.
The Meta builds are a problem you see.It destroys the social cohesion of the game because players are asses to players who prefer an ability that is not as powerful .
We NEED to be able to do our own build without being discriminated against.Thats why all abilities need to be viable.Otherwise acceptable players choice is limited to the Meta in a group environment.
And that has been a problem for years in MMO.Even now you are being a total aggresive ass and I'm glad for you to admit that.
Proves my point perfectly;we'r not even in game yet and you try to be an ass about it in an agressive manner.I shudder to think how you'd act in games.
You are exact the type of person that makes me want to play single players and quit the communities."why do I even play MMO's,most players are total asses" .Just like that troll @Shinigamiqt..
Having Donald Trump as your avatar on Discord asking me if I am trolling or for real..itsuits you fine.Have fun with your rolemodel.Its the last person on earth I'd like to associate with.
I disagree I think all players should be on the same playingfield:hardcore and new players alike,gear should have 0 impact there @Tremonti
I don't want gear relating to damage.only armor & things like climat maybe if heat played a role so players have to consider environment in their strategies.
But that would actually make the environment/content relevant and not just make max damage the game upon the actual game.
A game where the actual content,skill & socialness of the game matters endgame is not something that appeals to you probably.
So yea
“The ones that want EVERY piece of information for top proficiency prefer the HUD way.
Min/maxers want it because all that matters to them is being the best and winning.” “The line between elitist and min/maxer seems to be very thin to me.”
I said that and its true.Just look at it all..you think you have to go aggressive stance lol ... Its good that you show your colours in this.
yea..just slap the old crappy mmo mechanics on it & watch how it fails even before its fully out.Thats how it has been going lately anyway.
So yea , call your friends names and all,I don't care.Just don't champion to make MMO's as bad as your manners @ Tremonti
"Without UI: How much health do I have? What debuffs are on me? I can’t tell because I can’t even fucking see my character."
It would be wonderful muhahaha
<img src="http://www.gifbin.com/bin/032014/1394312388_mouse_tricks_cat_by_playing_dead.gif" alt="" />
and you still do not see that by quoting me with “health bar equates to being an elitist or min-maxer” you mixed together 2 things I was talking about @Tremonti
The problem of elitist&minmaxers and the overimportance of game mechanics overshadowing content/communty vs
the thrill of combat and the effect healthbar has on it;healthbar reaching 0 vs other mechanics that could make room for feign death,unconcious/downed staged,...
Can't we just let go of the handholding in mmo's,get some free aiming in ther and exciting combat where you can get creative in sigh*