[quote quote=24447]The other thing that worries me about this… ..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!? Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way. But I am a glass half full guy. /shrugs[/quote]
[quote]<strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote] I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And that’s in the unlikely event the kickstarter reaches 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
[quote quote=24447]The other thing that worries me about this… ..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!? Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way. But I am a glass half full guy. /shrugs[/quote]
[quote<strong>]But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote]
I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And that’s in the unlikely event the kickstarter reaches 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
[quote quote=24447]The other thing that worries me about this… ..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!? Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way. But I am a glass half full guy. /shrugs
[/quote]
[quote]<strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote] I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And that’s in the unlikely event the kickstarter reaches 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
[quote quote=24455]Ok, now I’m very worried. First we have taxes and elections, now a stock exchange? I have to deal with this kind of thing enough in my real life let alone in a game too. I get that Steven wants to create a living breathing world but this is going too far. I honestly hope that we don’t reach this milestone.
[/quote]
I agree with this. I've been 100% for this game, but this stock exchange idea seems a little too far fetched.
[quote quote=24447]The other thing that worries me about this… ..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!? Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way. But I am a glass half full guy. /shrugs
[/quote] [quote]<strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote]I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And all this is contingent on the kickstarter reaching 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
We don't really know the specifics regarding the SE yet. I would much rather see more details before they commit to adding something to the game, it may not necessarily be a good addition.
With all due respect, the Stock Exchange is a brand new goal, just recently revealed. So, unless there has been discord, youtube, or podcast discussion regarding the details of it's possible implementation that I've missed (which is entirely possible), there is nothing to suggest that it's going to be a globally linked system. In honesty, without further detail, it all just conjecture on our part, one way, or the other.
While I, too, have my reservations as to how this may negatively impact the game, I'll wait for further info, before passing judgement. Whether it's global, vs regional. Exactly what parameters will be instituted to safeguard against player's "gaming the system", and so forth.
So far, the only things I know about the Stock Exchange is the brief description posted on the kick starter page. I hope we get further clarification on how they see the Stock Exchange influencing the world, in a good way. If not popular with players, they have more than enough time to deep-six the idea, in favor of another one.
I expect it might be something similar to what you have in archeage. Although in AoC you will not be able to sell your goods on a global market you will be able to see where you might get the best prices and then you can take your stock there to sell etc. Also in archeage you can donate resourses etc and then get a dividend and the end of the period. This obviously is just speculation hopefully there will be an actual explenation in the next Q&A.
The Stock Exchange is a brand new goal, just recently revealed. So, unless there has been discord, youtube, or podcast discussion regarding the details of it's possible implementation that I've missed (which is entirely possible), there is nothing to suggest that it's going to be a globally linked system. In honesty, without further detail, it all just conjecture on our part, one way, or the other.
While I, too, have my reservations as to how this may negatively impact the game, I'll wait for further info, before passing judgement. Whether it's global, vs regional. Exactly what parameters will be instituted to safeguard against player's "gaming the system", and so forth.
So far, the only things I know about the Stock Exchange is the brief description posted on the kick starter page. I hope we get further clarification on how they see the Stock Exchange influencing the world, in a good way. If not popular with players, they have more than enough time to deep-six the idea, in favor of another one.
I don't know..when I look at all the stretch goals, I think..ooh fun..puppies! fun!..new mount!..fun!..new armor!..fun!..new dyes! fun! new race!..FUN!....and a .....stock... exchange..waaa waaaaa "pop Quiz..test tomorrow"*makes a farting sound with my arm pit**.
Think its a grand idea. Your local trades Ex. your blacksmith, armorer, tailor, and others would tie directly into your Economic trade with other Nodes. Your Metropolis is cranking out awesome loot and others are buying it up, the city kicks some of that back to you. its win win.
[quote quote=24624]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/3-million-stock-exchange/page/2/#post-24447" rel="nofollow">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div> The other thing that worries me about this… ..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!? Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way. But I am a glass half full guy. /shrugs
</blockquote> <blockquote><strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong> </blockquote> I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And all this is contingent on the kickstarter reaching 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
[/quote]
Theres a price for a lack of information. It creates a vacuum. A vacuum that can only be filled by speculation.
I see nothing good coming from this. Thats my opinion. You are welcome to yours.
I will remain cautiously optimistic about the SE, however if it is in any way how the real life exchange works there will be manipulation. Wolves of wall street if you will. Even with excellent management, rules, and enforcement, eventually (2-3 years?) down the line you're going to have a crash, or corruption to the point of ruining the fun. It is almost inevitable. Another thing that concerns me is , what if I don't want to play the market? Am I at huge monetary disadvantage to players that do? Am I going to have to pour hours into my portfolio to stay "caught up" before I can even begin my dailies? Seems daunting, even as a person that LOVES options to kill time in game worlds. Will it be fun, or a chore?
OR it might be a simplified and 100% beneficial system uniquely tailored to this game and we're all fear mongers. (Let's try not to be wet blankets just yet)
I would LOVE to be able to start my own tavern and name it and hire an NPC or multiple NPCS to walk around my tavern. Like seriously have a brothel..name it..and have different "colorful" npcs walking around.
My literal reaction to reading the afformentioned goal was something along the line of a "bewildered wtf" feeling in my head, and then I thought to myself...doesn't sound fun at all...unless you a wolf on wall street...then maybe itd be fun for you.
At first, I was annoyed by this stretch goal, but the more I thought on it, the more on board I became. When I first thought of what they meant, I thought the developers were talking about a modern stock exchange where you can buy and sell your stocks from the safety of your own home.
But then I thought, this was not always the case. The concept of stocks and equity came about in the 1500s, and the tracking of them as well as determining their value was a highly complex and very physical thing. You had to keep a hold on some physical property that represents the value of your stock.. and then I thought how interesting this could be. The idea of investing into guilds, nodes, players (?), and other organisations sounds amazing, specifically if these investments have to be tracked and maintained with physical items.
Imagine, for example, I invested a lot of money into a guild - I can hold that investment over their head to persuade them to do what I want, but first I have to receive it, and moreover, I have to keep proof of that investment. So perhaps one day they check up on me to make sure I am still invested in their organisation, but my stock is at my home way back elsewhere. So I make a request to have it sent to me via caravan, and then that caravan is raided and my stocks are stolen.. now another player or organisation has control of that organisation.
So my question to the Ashes team is: how automated do you want the stock exchange to me? Computerised, or physical, or somewhere in between?
A stock exchange makes a lot of sense. 1) No one forces you to participate. 2) There had been games where it was extremely well implemented, even if on a small scale. For example, the dyl crystals stock exchange in Star Trek Online was both funny and useful, letting the community to establish a coherent price for the crystals without intervention from the devs. Compare with a fixed or band-price auction model of a relatively popular game nowadays... 3) I get that here we're talking of not just goods, but also "companies" (user owned businesses as taverns) or guilds could be subject to the stock exchange, and I hear about the risk of "insider trading". That's simply absurd, and here's the economic reason why:
The stock value of a thing is how much everyone thinks that thing is worth, which usually includes how much real stuff is in the thing. If you're going to have successful raids, personal drops will need to be better than what is dropped for the guild -- or in general, communal activities will have to provide a personal incentive that's greater than the benefit for the group. If this simple rule is respected, then everyone will get richer by winning the raid AND buying the stocks with what they gained than losing the raid, getting nothing, and buying the stocks with money the got somewhere else. Moreover, stocks are limited, and if you drop the value of your guild, it doesn't, necessarily mean you can benefit of it, ESPECIALLY if you must run from the raid entrance to the stock exchange physical place. Remember? No fast travel in this game. By the time you get there, you'll be buyed out by the richest person in town... So no, if correctly implemented a "fantasy" stock exchange, without the imperfections of the real world one, will prevent frauds, mainly frauds like insider trading and leverage buyouts.
4) And about the theme of a stock exchange in a fantasy world... never heard of "Spice & Wolf?" -- if don't just go and learn about it, the adventures of the middleage/renaissance merchant and his Wolf-Goddess girlfriend are very interesting. The episodes arc about him betting everything on a short sale (and everything like, his own life) is a masterpiece, and it's as tense as a fighting tournament. Consider that the first futures market in modern history was organized in 1710, in Osaka, and in 1877 in London, well before computers and networks, but even the Hamurabi code regulated contracts about future sales, and that's derivative market! -- as far as a standard stock exchange goes, they were present in many civilizations at many points in history. They totally make sense in a fantasy world with politics, intrigue and COMMERCE (actually, they emerge naturally and you'd need an excuse to rule them out, i.e. are prohibited by the Church, as it was actually the case in the European middle ages) -- and will make that part of the game more interesting.
Comments
..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!?
Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way.
But I am a glass half full guy.
/shrugs[/quote]
[quote]<strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote]
I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And that’s in the unlikely event the kickstarter reaches 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!?
Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way.
But I am a glass half full guy.
/shrugs[/quote]
[quote<strong>]But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote]
I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And that’s in the unlikely event the kickstarter reaches 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!?
Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way.
But I am a glass half full guy.
/shrugs
[/quote]
[quote]<strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote]
I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And that’s in the unlikely event the kickstarter reaches 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
[/quote]
I agree with this. I've been 100% for this game, but this stock exchange idea seems a little too far fetched.
..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!?
Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way.
But I am a glass half full guy.
/shrugs
[/quote]
[quote]<strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>[/quote]I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And all this is contingent on the kickstarter reaching 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
With all due respect, the Stock Exchange is a brand new goal, just recently revealed. So, unless there has been discord, youtube, or podcast discussion regarding the details of it's possible implementation that I've missed (which is entirely possible), there is nothing to suggest that it's going to be a globally linked system. In honesty, without further detail, it all just conjecture on our part, one way, or the other.
While I, too, have my reservations as to how this may negatively impact the game, I'll wait for further info, before passing judgement. Whether it's global, vs regional. Exactly what parameters will be instituted to safeguard against player's "gaming the system", and so forth.
So far, the only things I know about the Stock Exchange is the brief description posted on the kick starter page. I hope we get further clarification on how they see the Stock Exchange influencing the world, in a good way. If not popular with players, they have more than enough time to deep-six the idea, in favor of another one.
While I, too, have my reservations as to how this may negatively impact the game, I'll wait for further info, before passing judgement. Whether it's global, vs regional. Exactly what parameters will be instituted to safeguard against player's "gaming the system", and so forth.
So far, the only things I know about the Stock Exchange is the brief description posted on the kick starter page. I hope we get further clarification on how they see the Stock Exchange influencing the world, in a good way. If not popular with players, they have more than enough time to deep-six the idea, in favor of another one.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/3-million-stock-exchange/page/2/#post-24447" rel="nofollow">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div>
The other thing that worries me about this…
..you thought gold sellers were a problem with conventional games ?!?!?
Oh Boy!
The only thing I see this doing is fundamentally breaking the whole economy in a very bad way.
But I am a glass half full guy.
/shrugs
</blockquote>
<blockquote><strong>But I am a glass half full guy.</strong>
</blockquote>
I do not think it means what you think it means.
But anyway, I see a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing but conjecture. I understand this is the internet, so that’s par for the course, but people need to chill. Steven and the Intrepid team have been playing mmos for a long time; I’m sure they’ve taken these possible exploits into consideration. And of course there’s always the mass amount of testing that will go into honing the system. A far more effective means of identifying and eliminating the potential problems than accusations brought upon by incomplete information. And all this is contingent on the kickstarter reaching 3m. I’m blown away by its success, but another million probably isn’t going to happen.
[/quote]
Theres a price for a lack of information.
It creates a vacuum.
A vacuum that can only be filled by speculation.
I see nothing good coming from this.
Thats my opinion.
You are welcome to yours.
OR it might be a simplified and 100% beneficial system uniquely tailored to this game and we're all fear mongers. (Let's try not to be wet blankets just yet)
I patiently look forward to details.
But then I thought, this was not always the case. The concept of stocks and equity came about in the 1500s, and the tracking of them as well as determining their value was a highly complex and very physical thing. You had to keep a hold on some physical property that represents the value of your stock.. and then I thought how interesting this could be. The idea of investing into guilds, nodes, players (?), and other organisations sounds amazing, specifically if these investments have to be tracked and maintained with physical items.
Imagine, for example, I invested a lot of money into a guild - I can hold that investment over their head to persuade them to do what I want, but first I have to receive it, and moreover, I have to keep proof of that investment. So perhaps one day they check up on me to make sure I am still invested in their organisation, but my stock is at my home way back elsewhere. So I make a request to have it sent to me via caravan, and then that caravan is raided and my stocks are stolen.. now another player or organisation has control of that organisation.
So my question to the Ashes team is: how automated do you want the stock exchange to me? Computerised, or physical, or somewhere in between?
1) No one forces you to participate.
2) There had been games where it was extremely well implemented, even if on a small scale. For example, the dyl crystals stock exchange in Star Trek Online was both funny and useful, letting the community to establish a coherent price for the crystals without intervention from the devs. Compare with a fixed or band-price auction model of a relatively popular game nowadays...
3) I get that here we're talking of not just goods, but also "companies" (user owned businesses as taverns) or guilds could be subject to the stock exchange, and I hear about the risk of "insider trading". That's simply absurd, and here's the economic reason why:
The stock value of a thing is how much everyone thinks that thing is worth, which usually includes how much real stuff is in the thing. If you're going to have successful raids, personal drops will need to be better than what is dropped for the guild -- or in general, communal activities will have to provide a personal incentive that's greater than the benefit for the group. If this simple rule is respected, then everyone will get richer by winning the raid AND buying the stocks with what they gained than losing the raid, getting nothing, and buying the stocks with money the got somewhere else. Moreover, stocks are limited, and if you drop the value of your guild, it doesn't, necessarily mean you can benefit of it, ESPECIALLY if you must run from the raid entrance to the stock exchange physical place. Remember? No fast travel in this game. By the time you get there, you'll be buyed out by the richest person in town... So no, if correctly implemented a "fantasy" stock exchange, without the imperfections of the real world one, will prevent frauds, mainly frauds like insider trading and leverage buyouts.
4) And about the theme of a stock exchange in a fantasy world... never heard of "Spice & Wolf?" -- if don't just go and learn about it, the adventures of the middleage/renaissance merchant and his Wolf-Goddess girlfriend are very interesting. The episodes arc about him betting everything on a short sale (and everything like, his own life) is a masterpiece, and it's as tense as a fighting tournament.
Consider that the first futures market in modern history was organized in 1710, in Osaka, and in 1877 in London, well before computers and networks, but even the Hamurabi code regulated contracts about future sales, and that's derivative market! -- as far as a standard stock exchange goes, they were present in many civilizations at many points in history. They totally make sense in a fantasy world with politics, intrigue and COMMERCE (actually, they emerge naturally and you'd need an excuse to rule them out, i.e. are prohibited by the Church, as it was actually the case in the European middle ages) -- and will make that part of the game more interesting.