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Latest Livestream Hints at a Poor Class Balance

How is the class balance going to be in Ashes of Creation? Well, it looks like we've gotten an answer during the 17th/ may/ 2017 livestream. Roughly half way through the livestream, IS gives us a glimpse into one of the metropolises in the game, an economic metropolis. When the supposedly archer (Bow user) with a rogue subclass approaches the metropolis, he/she activates a stealth skill so it won't be noticed by the guards. This happens in min 37:35 seconds. For the next 50s, upto 38:25s, the Archer_Rogue character wanders around the entrance area of the economic metropolis croosing around the royal guards, and they stand there noticing nothing. This all cool, but a question comes to mind. Is the duration of this skill 50s? Clearly this stealth mechanic, or skill allowed this character to pass the royal guard on the main gates without being noticed. This means players can't spot or hear the player in this mode. Evidently, if this is the case, then the class balance must be broken. In fact, it's so broken that i thought i would list few dozen things you can do with this overpowered stealth skill.

<strong>List of things you can do with this overpowered stealth skill.</strong>
1: Break into a heavily guarded area, and siege it from the inside while your allies siege it from outside. In fact, a guild comprised of 150 people can all have a Rogue subclass, and they can all hide for 50s, break into a heavily guarded area, and slaughter the enemy from inside.
2: You're facing 10 players from an opposing alliance that yours regularly fights. They are trying to gank you. Well, guess what? You can use this skill to save your dying as!#@$%.
3: 1v1 more like i can't see who i am fighting.
4: A fire-breathing dragon is in front of you, and you've 1% of your health left, well, you can easily escape with this skill.

You get the idea.
50s for a stealth skill is too much. The duration should be reduced to 5s, with a movement speed increase.
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Comments

  • I agree . The rogue class has always had the ability to disappear on will. I'm hoping they make this skill AOE(meaning too close to an enemy in broad day light and you'll become uncovered) based and cant be activated while in combat. Rogues have always been given a free pass in most games ive played.
  • Ofcourse there will be balance, and multiple testing phases to accomplish that before the game is released.
  • i am guessing that it would have to be rogue primary to stealth at all and maybe any action taken takes you out of stealth. AOEs may also still hit you so who knows what will remove you from stealth. the rogue /ranger class is called a predator and maybe his role is to scout or to get the drop and unload all his burst skills. then he will have to worry about his cooldowns being blown if he fails to kill you.

    And they said that part of the predators role would be two sneak in and take down the defenses to open up a siege, so i think that is working as intended.

    Personally i want every class to have a niche it fills. something only it can do. this will require every class to have a use. just my two cents.
  • Or you could give it a counterbalance in the form of detection stats / spells / uncloak through AOE.

    Maybe at a certain range, units will notice you?

    Perhaps a ranger has more finely tuned senses than a fighter? Or a Mage can cast a spell that helps them detect invisible creatures?

    Invisibility has long been a hallmark ability of rogues, especially in PvP, so I see no reason to greatly change it. All it needs is a counterbalancing factor, and it's up to IS to provide that.

    There are as many ways to balance this ability as there are ways to unbalance it.
  • OP, you are making some huge assumptions based on what is essentially a trailer, completely out of context with the game itself. We honestly have no idea how the stealth is going to work in-game or what measures they are going to put to counter stealth. I would honestly wait until we have more solid information before donning your tin-foil hat.
  • The trailer is more a cinematic event than actual "game play", it's demonstrating the ability to sneak into a city, take out the main guy, and start the attack. Looks great, imagine a group of people doing that prior to a siege it would have a "Rouge One / Dirty Dozen" feel to the game, basically a suicide mission, for the good of your guild/team.
  • you missed a point that you got wrong. to attack the rogue clearly has to come out of invisibility. Also, the warrior is able to 'sense' the rogue, he clearly turns before the rogue comes out of hiding, so we can find out if a rogue is hiding and where he's hiding.
    but again, rogues will have some nerfs if they are OP.
  • They'll probably follow the same rules as in every other game. If you're in combat you cannot stealth, if you get too close you come out of stealth, (perhaps some enemies will ahve stealth sense for this, like guard dogs etc) and probably a bit of a cooldown as well.
  • He could be using 'dev stealth' which would work way better that what players would get.
  • Well, obviously that doesn't represent even a stitch of intended balance/tuning... it's just a tech demo :)

    But it makes me sad to this day a player would choose a class based on what they perceive to be "over powered" rather than what they find fun.

    While Steven and co. might be able to change the genre in some ways for the better, I fear there's no way to alter player mindset. And that's half of the problem sometimes. :(
  • Wow, he can hide... so op.
  • I hate to feed trolls, but this is a very good one. Inferring class imbalance from a normal stealth mechanic ( as seen in all popular MMO's) shown in a cinematic trailer is absolutely trollantastic.

    You sir are the king of trolls and I firmly believe the devs should name a troll NPC after you. You totally deserve it. I totally mean it as a compliment. Genius.
  • I thought I jumped to conclusions.

    Mate, they are still defining all the skills and man are being dropped on the cutting room floor.
    The skills durations at this stage probbaly arent even a twinkle in anyones eye.
    All they are interested in at the moment, is that they damn well work.

    Jeez this is pre-alpha.
    We arent even in the alpha beta testing phases yet !
  • [quote quote=25021]The trailer is more a cinematic event than actual “game play”, it’s demonstrating the ability to sneak into a city, take out the main guy, and start the attack. Looks great, imagine a group of people doing that prior to a siege it would have a “Rouge One / Dirty Dozen” feel to the game, basically a suicide mission, for the good of your guild/team.

    [/quote]

    [quote quote=24989]OP, you are making some huge assumptions based on what is essentially a trailer, completely out of context with the game itself. We honestly have no idea how the stealth is going to work in-game or what measures they are going to put to counter stealth. I would honestly wait until we have more solid information before donning your tin-foil hat.

    [/quote]
    I see where you are coming from, but i am not talking about the "Art of War" Trailer. God no. I am talking about the latest livestream, it says right there!!! "Latest livestream" Not "Trailer".
  • In a gameplay demo the rogue came out of stealth in the middle of several guards and nothing happens. They were showing off a shiny stealth feature and I'm sure it wasn't fully implemented as is.
  • [quote quote=25098]In a gameplay demo the rogue came out of stealth in the middle of several guards and nothing happens. They were showing off a shiny stealth feature and I’m sure it wasn’t fully implemented as is.

    [/quote]

    Totally agreeing on that. This game is most likely far from Alpha, so there is no point yet, to discuss about balance in that early state of the game yet, I guess. That is what we will be testing, once we are allowed to. Right now, it is about building the basement of that project.

    On the Stealth in general: I've been playing fantasy MMORPGS for over 12 years now. Most of them had "Stealth-Classes" and most of them could become invisible for a certain amount of time. Sure that is an advantage over other classes, but to compensate that, they also had a major drawback, like squashiness or only burst damage for a short amount of time, etc. etc. Also I'm pretty sure, that we will have alot of countermeasures, like craftable Detect-Potions, or Detect-Skills and so on. So many possiblities to counter that.

    Anyways, as I said in the beginning of my post, in my opinion, that is not a thing to discuss yet.

    baumbart :-)
  • You need to stop looking at things as the final product when this is Pre-Alpha and Development has at least 18 more months until the final product. Your post here has 0 merit because you are not thinking logically.
  • TBH that stealth wasnt that stealthy.
    I had no problem making the character out against the background.
    This will only work for players that hide in the shadow and/or dont move much.

    Seems far better (blance wise) than many forms of stealth I have seen.
  • I would not expect that NPCs have all of their own abilities like perception or detection range or anything coded in yet. Nor did we see any other PCs near him to be able to tell how their skills would be paired vs. that one lone Predator.

    Though I too did marvel for a second at that Predator's sneak in, it was just a second or two of marvel. I'd wait some time before I call that there is a balance issue. Kind of early.
  • Well, that doesn't represent even a stitch of intended balance/tuning... it's just a tech demo :)

    But it makes me sad to this day a player would choose a class based on what they perceive to be "over powered" rather than what they find fun.

    While Steven and co. might be able to change the genre in some ways for the better, I fear there's no way to alter player mindset. And that's half of the problem sometimes. :(
  • In other games I've played, more than one other class have ways to make characters in stealth come out of hiding. We don't have any information how the other classes will be. AoE skills can hit them too. I don't think a 50-60s stealth skill will be a problem if other classes can counter them.

    Plus we don't know what the settings were when they recorded that video. The rogue could very likely be a citizen of that metropolis and not a threat at all. In the temple, he actually came out of hiding in an area with guards and they didn't react at all.
  • Stealth is always controversial in MMO's. As this one is going to be open world they absolutely have to get it right or it will devolve into a gank box.

    Its way to early to tell, but they are putting it out there so its fair game to comment. If PvP can happen anywhere, fine, then stealth detection has to be available and potent. I'll give up class points or dedicated gear slots for the detection ability, thats fair but it would be nice to have a game that has the counter play to stealth equally as potent.
  • Just curious; in watching that, I'm pretty sure I saw a few points where it seemed as though time lagged/skipped; the rogue's position changed. Do we know for a fact that he was stealthed the entire time?

    And as has been pointed out above, this is pre-alpha stuff. Do you really want to start, now, pre-alpha, picking apart everything that *might* be wrong? I mean, if you go at it from that angle, you'll have yourself convinced this is the worst game ever long before it even reaches beta.
  • You have to make a bunch of assumptions about a bunch of stuff you have no clue about on order to come to the assumption that there will be class balance issues based on that demo.


    On a side note, there are always class balance issues in any mmo, but still coming to this conclusion based on the demo, is kinda crasy.
  • What a clickbaity title. You're making some outlandish assumptions based on a video that was simply a walkthrough of the metropolis and surrounding area. It was not to show off class mechanics. Titles like this are not good for the community. They gain a lot of traction and spread misinformation. If you want the developers to continue showing us in game content we as a community can't criticize game play we know nothing about. Unless the developers specifically say "Here is a video showing off the mechanics of our rogue class." We should wait a little longer before critiquing and let the game develop.
  • What a clickbaity title. You're making some huge assumptions based on a video that was simply a walkthrough of the metropolis and surrounding area. It was not to show off class mechanics. Titles like this are not good for the community. They gain a lot of traction and spread misinformation. If you want the developers to continue showing us in game content we as a community can't criticize game play we know nothing about. Unless the developers specifically say "Here is a video showing off the mechanics of our rogue class." We should wait a little longer before critiquing and let the game develop.
  • Game isn't coming out for 2 years guys... hasn't even been tested... it's subject to change and will change.

    Relax y'all. Can't be broken if game isn't even out yet.
  • My guess is there will be a skill/ability that can reveal characters using stealth.
  • Like many have said it's pre-alpha and much hasn't been implemented yet. I doubt any of the guards are fully coded yet. What you saw was probably npcs on rails, no AI or anything. Class balance should be discussed in the beta stages, not pre-alpha.
  • I really hope that "balance" isn't a big deal that bogs everything down. Players shouldn't (IMO) expect to be able to beat every single other class combo with theirs. It's impossible to get right where players want it and you will be chasing your tail until the game retires.
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