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Latest Livestream Hints at a Poor Class Balance

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Comments

  • This is the kind of post that leads to the developers giving us less information and fewer in game video's in the future because they don't want to show things that are still under review. And then it ends up with a full on lockdown from developers and we have no idea or input into how the game will evolve. And then you and up with the New Game Enhancements that everyone hates and results in the textbook idea of how not to alienate your customer base.

    Moral of the story, let's not start complaining about "balance" before there are actual class mechanics, especially for something as easily configurable as the length of a skill.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/latest-livestream-hints-at-a-poor-class-balance/page/2/#post-25352">ShieldSean wrote:</a></div>This is the kind of post that leads to the developers giving us less information and fewer in game video’s in the future because they don’t want to show things that are still under review. And then it ends up with a full on lockdown from developers and we have no idea or input into how the game will evolve. And then you and up with the New Game Enhancements that everyone hates and results in the textbook idea of how not to alienate your customer base.

    Moral of the story, let’s not start complaining about “balance” before there are actual class mechanics, especially for something as easily configurable as the length of a skill.

    </blockquote>

    Pretty much this.
  • I'm guessing stealth could be a not true complete stealth, but have light bending translucent effect, so players can still use their eyes to see you, you would just be harder to notice than if wearing normal cloth and your opacity being 100%.

    So stealth could be visualized for others in a way like we see stealth-ed character in a video. Opacity and translucency can be balanced so it's not too easy to get noticed, but you still can be noticed if someone pays good attention to his surroundings.

    Translucency level could even be dependent on proximity from other player. The closer you are, little less translucent you become, and if you are far away you are completely invisible.
  • I guess you'll just have to setup traps against classes with stealth. Just like in ragnarok online before during war of emp/siege in other games, the entrances are usually filled with traps to counter stealth classes. Opposing players won't be able to see the traps, only your party. Guildmates and allies won't see them but they won't be triggered by them if they walked on them.

    In an open world environment, i'm not sure how the traps will be used efficiently. Maybe, if you put them around your fortresses or buildings, they could be helpful but we'll see how the devs are gonna work on balancing combat in AoC
  • Didn't someone mention that is was an invisibility skill for the class itself? Might be more than stealth, though making excuses for it is my falling into the trap the OP did! :)
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/latest-livestream-hints-at-a-poor-class-balance/page/2/#post-25125">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div>TBH that stealth wasnt that stealthy.
    I had no problem making the character out against the background.
    This will only work for players that hide in the shadow and/or dont move much.

    Seems far better (blance wise) than many forms of stealth I have seen.

    </blockquote>

    I'm not exactly sure this is a logical statement for what you've seen. The videos that we saw the predator go into Stealth mode, both were viewed by the player that is playing the Predator, so of course your going to see a haziness around the character, otherwise you wouldn't see where you're going. Now if this is also the same view from what other players will see you as, then your point is valid, but I highly doubt other players (exception of those classes with Stealth detection skills) will be able to see you as a blurry image. To me it would make more sense that others wont see you at all, with the exception of, IF movement in the game will interact with the environment, such as grass or bushes moving when walking on or against them. Especially in water, you should tell someone is walking in shallow water from the splashes etc.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/latest-livestream-hints-at-a-poor-class-balance/page/2/#post-25125">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div>TBH that stealth wasnt that stealthy.
    I had no problem making the character out against the background.
    This will only work for players that hide in the shadow and/or dont move much.

    Seems far better (blance wise) than many forms of stealth I have seen.

    </blockquote>

    I'm not exactly sure this is a logical statement for what you've seen. The videos that we saw the predator go into Stealth mode, both were viewed by the player that is playing the Predator, so of course your going to see a haziness around the character, otherwise you wouldn't see where you're going. Now if this is also the same view from what other players will see you as, then your point is valid, but I highly doubt other players (exception of those classes with Stealth detection skills) will be able to see you as a blurry image. To me it would make more sense that others wont see you at all, with the exception of, IF movement in the game will interact with the environment, such as grass or bushes moving when walking on or against them. Especially in water, you should tell someone is walking in shallow water from the splashes etc.
  • Stealth has always and should always stay permanent and it should be at least as good as WoW's rogue where you can stealth around without being noticed unless you show up right in front of a player / NPC.

    The rogue types rely on stealth for their mechanics. Saying the stealth should get nerfed is like saying a warrior should wear cloth. That's not how game design works. Every class has their strengths, and once a rogue is out of stealth he will always be vulnerable.


    I say keep it as it is or add a 3 yard range if you appear in front of an enemy just like in WoW. No need to ruin stealth by adding a duration or nerfing it to the ground because other people don't want you to have fun.
    Edit: Typo
  • @KingAxzel I agree, rogues should definitely have infinite stealth; but since you mentioned WoW rogues infinite chainable stuns on the other hand are quite another matter.
  • Duration does not at all make it OP - case and point: World of Warcraft. I'm sure there will be plenty of methods to make it so you cannot stealth so easily during delicate infiltration and such. Either way, there's no indication whatsoever that this will be the final product at all. You're getting 2+ years ahead of yourself.
  • Sometimes skills shown in the pre-alpha footage, do not have the appropriate cooldowns and components. I wouldn't speculate too much on what's seen from a balancing standpoint.
  • The excitement and hype around the game is making things look very real and live but it is just "In development" , people need to relax and be happy how intrepid team is being interactive.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/latest-livestream-hints-at-a-poor-class-balance/page/3/#post-25442">KingAxzel wrote:</a></div>Stealth has always and should always stay permanent and it should be at least as good as WoW’s rogue where you can stealth around without being noticed unless you show up right in front of a player / NPC.

    The rogue types rely on stealth for their mechanics. Saying the stealth should get nerfed is like saying a warrior should wear cloth. That’s not how game design works. Every class has their strengths, and once a rogue is out of stealth he will always be vulnerable.

    I say keep it as it is or add a 3 yard range if you appear in front of an enemy just like in WoW. No need to ruin stealth by adding a duration or nerfing it to the ground because other people don’t want you to have fun.
    Edit: Typo

    </blockquote>

    except as a warrior id wear cloth if it met the rouge couldnt stealth and heal 100 percent hp and re-attack.
  • I see your point OP, Let's hope I can shoot the guy in "stealth" with a really BIG arrow to track him where he goes Muahahahah!
  • I can think of several logical counters to the stealthed rogue just walking in through the gate.
    1. Noisy Planks or gravel or sand.
    2. A dog at the gate that sniffs out the rogue.
    3. Magic wards at the gate that decloak a rogue.
    4. A special NPC guard class that sees all.
    5. An actual gate!
    6. It costs fatigue that affects the first attacks after decloaking. So they are powerful but not that powerful.
    7. Slow movement speed while cloaked at lower levels.
    8. Armour near zero while cloaked.
    9. Friendly fire damage while cloaked.
    10. Cloaking consumes a potion or something expensive.

    Of cause this is a level 50 character. All of the characters are clearly high level.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/latest-livestream-hints-at-a-poor-class-balance/page/2/#post-25352">ShieldSean wrote:</a></div>This is the kind of post that leads to the developers giving us less information and fewer in game video’s in the future because they don’t want to show things that are still under review. And then it ends up with a full on lockdown from developers and we have no idea or input into how the game will evolve. And then you and up with the New Game Enhancements that everyone hates and results in the textbook idea of how not to alienate your customer base.

    Moral of the story, let’s not start complaining about “balance” before there are actual class mechanics, especially for something as easily configurable as the length of a skill.

    </blockquote>

    Well said.
  • There also might be other classes that can detect steath,I mean,lets just wait and see what they give us
  • You're right, the game is doomed. This pre pre alpha clearly shows how 1 player will destroy the whole game. Imagine 2 of them or god forbid even 3 on a single server!

    Everything we need to know has already been show in full detail. Im lost for words...
  • Yeah I'm sure class balance is the number one priority in the pre-alpha state of the game, sure OP. Forget actually creating the game and its content, class balance is much more important at this point.
  • The OP for this thread is so incorrect and misinformed it isn't worth discussion.
  • I noticed during the stream that the active camouflage refracted light pretty well. This being the case, I assume it may be harder for NPCs to see, but other players can probably spot it if they have a sharp eye. When the rogue was running through shaded areas he was harder to see, but when he was within direct sunlight i noticed light shining through his camouflage. This may be the balance. Move slow, stay hidden, and keep to the shadows to remain unnoticed. It's kind of an old and very used theme. I like this idea.
  • Also you may notice that that there is a little shift in the imagery so you may also notice that.
  • Exactly what I was saying.....way way better than invisibility form a balance perspective.
    You can be spotted if you aren't careful.
    The refraction is not perfect.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/latest-livestream-hints-at-a-poor-class-balance/#post-24986">Varrocker wrote:</a></div>Or you could give it a counterbalance in the form of detection stats / spells / uncloak through AOE.

    Maybe at a certain range, units will notice you?

    Perhaps a ranger has more finely tuned senses than a fighter? Or a Mage can cast a spell that helps them detect invisible creatures?

    Invisibility has long been a hallmark ability of rogues, especially in PvP, so I see no reason to greatly change it. All it needs is a counterbalancing factor, and it’s up to IS to provide that.

    There are as many ways to balance this ability as there are ways to unbalance it.

    </blockquote>

    Heh millennials

    Hide in shadows/ backstab has long been a "hallmark ability" of the thief class since it was published in 1974 .
  • During the live stream Steve stated that they were tweaking things for the demos and they don't represent what the final game will act like. He even specifically stated that rogues "cannot stay in stealth forever". In several of the streams they have said, "that is why we have alphas and betas to adjust the balance." The jumping to conclusions in this this thread is why most developers are not as open as this. Personally, I am taking a wait and see approach and have made a modest (IMO) kickstarter pledge.
  • Nice to see that they pay attention to these forums, is it not? :)
  • I have watched all the live streams and I am sure one of them mentioned already that some archetypes will have abilities for detecting stealthed enemies. This is such a basic component of other MMORPG's I cannot imagine Ashes not incorporating this into class balance pvp gameplay.
    OP must be a troll or very inexperienced in this genre.
  • Why should the devs follow the forums when the information is out there to be found if you just look. The game is just in pre alpha so assuming how things are going to be is just self punishing. During the Friday stream they advised that not only will there a shorter timer on stealth but there will be skills that other players have to detect stealthed characters as well as a small graphic affect such as a slight shimmer.
  • Should I comment hmm?....... What the hell!

    Like most of the people who comment on this forum post said its still in pre-alpha
    don't come in expecting a finishing project or it will be your own downfall!

    as the rogue stealth ability they said it will have a shimmering like effect for other player's to kinda see them
    and I pretty sure they make it where you can't attack in stealth that be to OP
    also pretty sure they will either add a Timer or do what "World of warcraft" did where they can stay in stealth until they are attacked or they attack someone!

    We haven't seen any other game play of classes and your bringing this up about balance bro.... come on

    info below!
  • It's so early in development I wouldn't even be considering anything they show as being "balanced". It's all concept at the moment and should be taken with a grain of salt. If you really want to be influential in helping to balance a game, play its alpha/beta and give feedback on your experience.
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