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Vanilla EverQuest and what it did better
ArchivedUser
Guest
I was an original player of EQ and played for over 5 years. There were several things that EQ did right that were overlooked and ultimately changed as time went on. I would like to point them out in hopes that in some way it can help this game. EQ was far from perfect in its early days, but there was enough of the right stuff in the mix to get us to come back every day.
****. The world was utterly massive. If I was in Kelethin and you were in Qeynos there was a day long adventure full of extreme danger and long boat rides ahead if we wanted to meet up. The land itself was full of amazing sounds that I hear being used in TV spots from time to time (dark forest beast sounds) and interesting hidden things like the giant chess board of Butcher Block. The paths that sometimes led you to doom or home.
****. Dungeons were interesting and worthy of exploration, little things go a long way, from a high dive cliff in Crushbone to a hidden ship in upper Guk each turn was exciting. The layout made sense and it was scary to go down deeper and deeper. The traps in some dungeons that could spell doom to even high level characters. Hidden walls switches and other things always led you to think you might find something no one else has, and I remember reading that we never did find it all.
****. Death seriously sucked. You did not want to die, you ran you cowered and you cringed when you heard that bone snapping critical hit. Your characters run speed slowed down the closer you came to death making saving you even harder and your own sense of demise stronger. After all these years just thinking about those times makes my stomach sink... the times you Almost escaped and the amazing joy of just making it out. This feeling is a major hook, no matter how much the pansies cry about it. You lost experience, all of your stuff was on your body, you had to run naked to get it back.... even at the bottom of a dungeon... unless you could get resurrected preferably by a high end cleric to get some of the exp back.
****. You needed to group up all the time. Post level 10 ish it was no longer safe to go it alone. See the post about death, backup was a must simply because you didn't know how hard the next mob was going to hit you. The best loot was on Named Toons and killing those guys required a well skilled group. Having a good puller and tank could make your night easy but only if you had a good healer and crowd control to go with it, and never discount a good damage dealer. Making friends was a must and it created a amazing community with more drama than a TV soap. Solo did not exist, even if druids tell you it did, the best way to get what would make you stronger is to be with other players.
****. There was no linear zone progression. Some zones were for low level players and some for high but there were several that had a good mix for both. The Oasis of Marr was an excellent place for teen levels to hunt by the shore but you had to watch out for Sand Giants and Specters that would roam around stomping those not paying attention. Latter hunting those Giants and Specters was a mainstay. It also allowed higher level groups to help new players. It was always fun to save that group of players from a Giant as they watched in awe of your well geared and veteran group slay their boogyman. Tossing their tank a piece of bronze armor or other random useful items helped make friends of some people that would become power players latter that would remember your kindness, or just make for a more enjoyable night for all.
****. Loot, it drove us ever deeper into the bowls of dungeons, made us chase flying horses across Karana and brought us into the planes to kill gods. Each item with just enough to push you above the rest, some helped make you survivable and (me being a paladin) some made you the talk of the server. Being one of the few to get the original Fiery Avenger back when getting it was deemed impossible. Our nights revolved around getting loot. Some were fun experiences and some... not. All of it added to the magic of the game though. You paid the price for getting Journeyman Boots and I suffered with my friends for weeks getting a Ghoulbane (I still have to apologize to people for making them camp it with me). It was during these time that we made strong friendships, friends I still have to this day.
****. No hand holding at all. The world was open and quests hard to find and easy to break. Factions were deep and getting it was difficult. Meet a new race? Well they don't like you and you will have to slowly change their minds. There were few quests and those that were there were either for faction or new players. Leveling was difficult and required time and effort. Pick up a new weapon? Well you will be useless with it until you learn to use it... how is that? Go out and use it, skill comes with use. Not sure where to go? Better ask other players, there is no NPC with a ! over his head to tell you what to do next. Goes with that get a group thing. Sounds harsh but unless you are a complete jerk you make friends that play around the same time as you and meet up. It keeps you coming back also.
There is so much more. I will add to this latter, just wanted to get this started. EverQuest was my first dip into the MMORPG as it was for most who played it. It is possible that because of this none shall ever surpass it. I count myself as blessed to have done what I did, it was an epic 5 years and I met some amazing people along the way. I hope I can experience that joy again some day.
****. The world was utterly massive. If I was in Kelethin and you were in Qeynos there was a day long adventure full of extreme danger and long boat rides ahead if we wanted to meet up. The land itself was full of amazing sounds that I hear being used in TV spots from time to time (dark forest beast sounds) and interesting hidden things like the giant chess board of Butcher Block. The paths that sometimes led you to doom or home.
****. Dungeons were interesting and worthy of exploration, little things go a long way, from a high dive cliff in Crushbone to a hidden ship in upper Guk each turn was exciting. The layout made sense and it was scary to go down deeper and deeper. The traps in some dungeons that could spell doom to even high level characters. Hidden walls switches and other things always led you to think you might find something no one else has, and I remember reading that we never did find it all.
****. Death seriously sucked. You did not want to die, you ran you cowered and you cringed when you heard that bone snapping critical hit. Your characters run speed slowed down the closer you came to death making saving you even harder and your own sense of demise stronger. After all these years just thinking about those times makes my stomach sink... the times you Almost escaped and the amazing joy of just making it out. This feeling is a major hook, no matter how much the pansies cry about it. You lost experience, all of your stuff was on your body, you had to run naked to get it back.... even at the bottom of a dungeon... unless you could get resurrected preferably by a high end cleric to get some of the exp back.
****. You needed to group up all the time. Post level 10 ish it was no longer safe to go it alone. See the post about death, backup was a must simply because you didn't know how hard the next mob was going to hit you. The best loot was on Named Toons and killing those guys required a well skilled group. Having a good puller and tank could make your night easy but only if you had a good healer and crowd control to go with it, and never discount a good damage dealer. Making friends was a must and it created a amazing community with more drama than a TV soap. Solo did not exist, even if druids tell you it did, the best way to get what would make you stronger is to be with other players.
****. There was no linear zone progression. Some zones were for low level players and some for high but there were several that had a good mix for both. The Oasis of Marr was an excellent place for teen levels to hunt by the shore but you had to watch out for Sand Giants and Specters that would roam around stomping those not paying attention. Latter hunting those Giants and Specters was a mainstay. It also allowed higher level groups to help new players. It was always fun to save that group of players from a Giant as they watched in awe of your well geared and veteran group slay their boogyman. Tossing their tank a piece of bronze armor or other random useful items helped make friends of some people that would become power players latter that would remember your kindness, or just make for a more enjoyable night for all.
****. Loot, it drove us ever deeper into the bowls of dungeons, made us chase flying horses across Karana and brought us into the planes to kill gods. Each item with just enough to push you above the rest, some helped make you survivable and (me being a paladin) some made you the talk of the server. Being one of the few to get the original Fiery Avenger back when getting it was deemed impossible. Our nights revolved around getting loot. Some were fun experiences and some... not. All of it added to the magic of the game though. You paid the price for getting Journeyman Boots and I suffered with my friends for weeks getting a Ghoulbane (I still have to apologize to people for making them camp it with me). It was during these time that we made strong friendships, friends I still have to this day.
****. No hand holding at all. The world was open and quests hard to find and easy to break. Factions were deep and getting it was difficult. Meet a new race? Well they don't like you and you will have to slowly change their minds. There were few quests and those that were there were either for faction or new players. Leveling was difficult and required time and effort. Pick up a new weapon? Well you will be useless with it until you learn to use it... how is that? Go out and use it, skill comes with use. Not sure where to go? Better ask other players, there is no NPC with a ! over his head to tell you what to do next. Goes with that get a group thing. Sounds harsh but unless you are a complete jerk you make friends that play around the same time as you and meet up. It keeps you coming back also.
There is so much more. I will add to this latter, just wanted to get this started. EverQuest was my first dip into the MMORPG as it was for most who played it. It is possible that because of this none shall ever surpass it. I count myself as blessed to have done what I did, it was an epic 5 years and I met some amazing people along the way. I hope I can experience that joy again some day.
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The only thing vanilla EQ did great was come out as the first 3rd person view MMORPG.
The only thing vanilla EQ did great was come out as the first 3rd person view MMORPG.
</blockquote>
Meridian 59 predated EQ, but it was 3D in the way that Doom was 3d. (2D sprites within a 3D environmental space.)
I agree though, EQ was so innovative and had many touches long forgotten in todays MMORPG landscape.
Hardly anyone even talks about how you interacted with NPCs back then.... you actually typed responses in character chat, and the NPCs responded to key words you say. And even though most people ended up just solely typing those key words, if you were a role player, you could carry on conversations with the NPC.
I'm not saying this was a mechanic that should still be used today, but it was creative and interesting in the evolution of npc character interaction.
Another time, I was a little lvl 10 or so wondering around Forbidden Forest and come across a stone marked "Plain of Knowledge". I click on it and I'm whisked away to a magical hub, full of players, shops and other magical stones. It was night time in POK and my awe at such a magical place quickly subsided when I realised I couldn't find the stone to lead me back to the forest, another "shout out" and a player appears and leads me back to where I needed to go.
Great memories, and a truly fantastic community.
I agree with the OP, EQ was truly a dangerous place and after lvl 15 or so, you needed a party, I miss the camping, and just chatting with your group as you waited for the "named" to pop. I miss the often shouted "train to western ent" while camping in Wall of Slaughter. Or the time I zoned into The Plain of Discord, and the entire zone in area was thick with arrows as someone trained the entire zone on to the zone in point. It was like a scene from a Vietnam movie, bodies everywhere, people trying to rez, in the thick of combat. Or the time I followed a Bard out of Bloodfeilds, he was using his super flying/speed song I zoned slower so as we entered POD he was a little ahead and getting further away, "splat" as I hit the ground from a 100 feet, because the hill dropped away so steeply and I lost my buff.
There are many people that hated EQ. Thats fine though… its when they try to make everyone like it that they broke what made its core audience love it. I see both sides, as a company you want more players but for the players that love the game they do not want to see it get muddled. It would be cool to see AoC make a game that is good, tune the mechanics so they work but they need to let some people hate the game. A game needs to grow and some changes are natural and needed, its a fine line.</blockquote>
EQ was always broken and in need of improvements - even for its core audience.
What you really mean is that there are some people who love the orginal version flaws and all.
And some who even view the flaws and tech limitations as virtues.
"The world was better before cars. After cars were introduced, the whole world went into chaos."
One of the issues that we have is that in the early days of EQ, video games were still fringe.
In 1999, home PCs were still fringe.
Most people playing video games were young enough to be hardcore challenge gamers with hardcore time available to play.
And just the newness of being able to easily play in a virtual world among masses of other players made siting around literally doing nothing for hours at a time while waiting for a rare mob to spawn feel like fun.
The limitations of invisible barriers surrounding zones and checkpoints leading to the next zone and loading times while moving to the next zone... actually horrible designs once you have the tech to get rid of them.
Sure, mob trains could be amusing sometimes, but that, again, is a horrible design once you have the tech to get rid of that.
Same for not being able to trade directly with another player character. Having to drop our items on the ground so the other player could pick it up is a horrible design once you have the tech to get rid of that.
That's true of the majority of the mechanics in vanilla EQ. It's just that's the best we had at the time.
And, again, being able to play an RPG alongside masses of other players made it easy to over look the annoyances and inconveniences.
-----------------------------------------
The majority of OG vanilla EQ players were hardcore challenge/hardcore time gamers. True.
But, a good portion of the core also included casuals. I'm a casual challenge/hardcore time player.
And I paid EQ subs just like everybody else, so, yes there should be plenty of casual content, too.
As people aged and more people began playing video games, the casual player base grew.
Especially because many of those who used to be single males who were hardcore challenge/hardcore time gamers began to have careers and families that forced them to be hardcore challenge/casual time gamers.
And sometimes even casual challenge/casual time gamers if the hardcore challenges are going to take too much time to complete.
It will always be true that some people will hate the game. Can't please all of the people all of the time.
There will be some people who hate the targeting system. There will be some people who hate the class system.
There will be all kinds of people who hat the PvP combat system - some because it's too soft and some because it's too punishing.
Same for the death penalties - some will hate them because there is no permadeath, some will hate them because they are too punishing.
There is no way to please everyone.
But, making an MMORPG that doesn't accommodate casual playstyles is absurd - because most MMORPG players are some form of casual. Inherently so, or, made so due to life taking its toll on available game time.
<blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/vanilla-everquest-and-what-it-did-better/#post-31403">Dygz wrote:</a></div>hahaha
The only thing vanilla EQ did great was come out as the first 3rd person view MMORPG.
</blockquote>
Meridian 59 predated EQ, but it was 3D in the way that Doom was 3d. (2D sprites within a 3D environmental space.)
I agree though, EQ was so innovative and had many touches long forgotten in todays MMORPG landscape.
Hardly anyone even talks about how you interacted with NPCs back then.... you actually typed responses in character chat, and the NPCs responded to key words you say. And even though most people ended up just solely typing those key words, if you were a role player, you could carry on conversations with the NPC.
I'm not saying this was a mechanic that should still be used today, but it was creative and interesting in the evolution of npc character interaction.
<blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/vanilla-everquest-and-what-it-did-better/#post-31403">Dygz wrote:</a></div>hahaha
The only thing vanilla EQ did great was come out as the first 3rd person view MMORPG.
</blockquote>
Meridian 59 predated EQ, but it was 3D in the way that Doom was 3d. (2D sprites within a 3D environmental space.)
I agree though, EQ was so innovative and had many touches long forgotten in todays MMORPG landscape.
Hardly anyone even talks about how you interacted with NPCs back then.... you actually typed responses in character chat, and the NPCs responded to key words you say. And even though most people ended up just solely typing those key words, if you were a role player, you could carry on conversations with the NPC.
I'm not saying this was a mechanic that should still be used today, but it was creative and interesting in the evolution of npc character interaction.
Any game that relies on PvP at End Game is not for casuals.
The core of the Ashes design is PvP conflict; not PvP combat.
There will be a variety of ways to resolve PvP conflict without killing player avatars.
Ashes does not have an endgame.
A list of what ashes is intended to be and what it is not intended to be.
Then stick to it.
The problem though is, once they die is cast, there is no going back.
The biggest problems are caused when a game has a clear policy.
Players join the game because of that specific policy.
Players ignore the game because of that policy.
The game creators then change the policy.
You already lost a load of players because of the original policy.
You then lose the existing players because you abandoned their policy.
New players dont trust you because you can change policy at the stroke of a brush, so there is no commitment.
The only way I see to solve that problem is get the policy right first time.
Dygz I would agree I had a bit more time back in the EQ days. I was out of college and in a tech career. All my friends there played EQ so it was pretty easy to rush home and jump on and play till crazy hours.... knowing my boss would be just as wooped as me the next day. I surpassed them rather quickly though and joined a guild that ended up running the server. You had to put in the time to get the gear and I was fully addicted to gear. While I might not be able to put in the same dedicated time to that game I could still give more than most, and if its good enough I might even get my wife to play.... and that could land me a bit more time in the game. Where there is a will there is a way.
Also, you mentioned the chessboard in Butcher Block...which is perfect of what was so neat about the game! I hope the world has some strange relics of the previous civilization that was wiped once before. Make it worth exploring out there!
****. The world was utterly massive.
****. Loot, it drove us ever deeper into the bowls of dungeons.
I love this post!!! If Intrepid can get these systems right, while staying true to the core ideals and systems we already know, It will be amazing!! I also really hope each dungeon and Raid is Unique and has only one difficulty setting, INSANELY HARD!
Much more fun to roleplay with the NPCs without worrying about how they would respond... other than them killing you when you accidentally initiated an attack by hitting the A key.
lmao
It is highly amusing to watch MMORPG afficionados 30 and younger try playing vanilla EQ for the first time now.
"This is so stupid! People thought this was fun??? Why???"
Almost as amusing as letting a 12 year old play Pong.
These days, the very first thing I do when I level is explore and uncover as much of the mini-map as possible.
Back then, for years, the first thing I did when I leveled was max my Swim skill.
Casual players tend to be highly social. They just aren't interested in killing everything nor are they necessarily interested in high achievements.
Many, like myself, are way more interested in exploring than in killings stuff.
Hardcore challenge players don't have fun playing with casual challenge players.
Typically they will kick casuals from groups. And/or they will berate the casuals to play like hardcores...so the casuals will adventure by themselves. And socialize when not adventuring.
All kinds of ways to socialize without formally joining a group.
Casuals are more likely to group when they can easily find other casuals to play with.
Solo play has nothing to do with single-player games. If that was the real issue, solo players wouldn't be playing MMOs.
Casuals -especially Socializer casuals- play with other players because they want to play with others (playing doesn't necessarily mean grouping).
Killers and Achievers - especially hardcore Killers and Achievers- won't socialize unless they need to. Even if that takes the form of camping for hours while waiting for uber mobs to spawn or for raids to form.
So, they think that people who refuse to join their groups also refuse to socialize.
But, that really is not the case.
Every sought after item drop was something you wanted/needed/could use instantly, no spending millions of in game currency to level it up first, possibly taking a casual months or even a year before that drop was useful.
The EXP penalty on death was a big gripe, but really wasn't that big of a deal unless you were careless and kept going places you shouldn't without a rezer. No cash shop at all (when I played), lots of help from other people at any level, GMs you could see in game that would come to your location when you hit a bug and look into the issue while you were still in that location, while you prayed they made it before the items you dropped on the ground disappeared (happened to me once, I was trading from a high level to a low level alt, with help from a guildie, where all the stuff he dropped landed inside a tree!)
one of the best implementations to date of "use it to learn it" in any game I've played (Elder Scrolls was a good second place there, but that is only because my memory is better than real life... I logged on EQ recently and was VERY disappointed in the quality of my memories)
Social interaction was everywhere even for solo players.
Explore at your own risk! Watch behind your back, careful not to step in the hole in that cave. Roaming monsters of higher levels here and there. Live events! In Asheron's Call towns completely demolished and left in ruins.
It took many games before I was not afraid to swim in a game. I didn't know at the time that my monitor was bad and the lighting faulty. If it wasn't for guiltiest and friends helping me I never would have gotten any quests or such done in the water. Walking blindly at night into the water was always my biggest fear. A friend still teases me today about it!
Meeting up and grouping with different factions/races was a different experience all together. You had to be careful where you went as a team. Help someone with a quest? Heck ya better know what effects helping them have on you! Often you weren't' able to get into another city. I can still feel and smell the stench of the sewers!
Heck I was KOS in my home town of Quenos. The corrupted guards took a disliking to me after I did a certain quest for an item I needed. And of course those were the guards in the part of town where the bank was!
The crafting systems were so involved. And as someone mentioned above, sitting around in a circle learning the languages of other races. Most kids today don't have the patience to work towards things. It's all about who can get to the end the fastest.
Not since then have any games been so totally involved.
Cylver
While Steven & co are happy to listen to their players, they have a very definite idea of what they want in the game they're creating, and they want it to be a game that they'll enjoy playing. For this reason, as well as the fact that they're acting as their own publisher, I'm hopeful that they'll toe that line a bit more sharply than other game companies have in the past.
I know they're not going to do it but "corpse runs" were great. You'd have a special set of armour and equipment just for doing the run, Journeyman boots etc. Then they allowed remote rezzing, this gave clerics some much needed coin back in POK, and all the buffers got work too. Who remembers "looking for rez" or "looking for buffs".