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Suggestion: Over-resistance

Hi Crew,

Anyone thought about the idea of elemental resistance passing 100%?

There was this game I played long ago, where if you exceed 100% resist, the attacks will heal you instead. You can think of it as surpassing the hard cap of 100% and allowing players to continue specializing into resistance.

I don't see that nowadays, most game have caps of how much resist you can get. Of course, there will be trade offs like in all of their concepts. If you have 110% fire resist, maybe you'll have -20% water resist.

Do you think something like this will be impossible to balance? Or is it something that will liberate players to specialize in certain fields of combat?
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Comments

  • Sounds cool.
    One more thing to note is, there could be "elemental piercing" aswell, that counters that stat.
    So if lets say someone has 120% resitatnce, and someonee has 50% piercing.
    In the end the damage will be 30%.
    There's defintley lots of room for that.
    Hopefuly we'll see it in game.
  • I liked the way they had the resistance in divinity original sin where you can have max level in and you would take 0 damage from weak spells but you only took like 10% from level one spells and so on so forth until I high level spell would do 50% of its base damage
  • it's a system available in FF8, where depending on what element you get you get resistance and stacking the same element gives even absorbtion.
    Its a nice idea and with item decay it could even work in this game.
    Maybe Armor with high elemental resistance decays faster if its over stacked to counter it a bit. Like if you have 80% resistance it decays at 100% rate, but if you have 125% resistance/25%absorb the decay rate rockets to 150% or something.
  • Typically what I see is a hard cap of resistances at the rages of 80-90% reduction. They also usually allow over capping in the way that if your fire resistance were reduced, it would instead be subtracted from the over cap first.

    So something like this: 80%hard cap 120% total the enemy has 20% penetration for fire

    120%-20%=100% hard cap is enacted resistance is 80%+20% over cap.
    It doesn't grant immunity because most games typically avoid dropping large amounts of resistance penetration in game.
    I do agree however as old school DnD would do this kind of thing. max resistances going over 100% = immunity and what not. I haven't played in a while so I'm not sure on absorption but I'm all for it. The only real issue I see is it has to be balanced in a way for tanks to get sufficient resistances to everything to actually tank. If that means low tier absorption in a couple areas and max resist in most if not all others then by all means.

    I'm assuming a dedicated tank will have drawbacks like lower(BUT NOT USELESS)dps and mobility drops. Mainly for the fact they now have to build in a way to not only absorb all the damage coming in but counteract penetration well enough to avoid tanking way more than expected. Classes that don't face check EVERYTHING won't be nearly as affected by this but I'd give magic based classes rather good access to resistances.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Agree its normally more than one type for resistance too.
    Permanent/base, temporary, transient, dynamic.
    All of which take a chunk out of the 100%

    I dont mind seeing 100% damage or speccing into ice and doing
    90% base attack + 10% ice damage.
    That means players who dont have 10% ice resist are subject to that damage.
    But those players in turn are compromised with
    90% base resist + 10% ice resist.

    What you get then is specialisation focus uniqueness.
    Rather than an escalating arms race.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Actually thats problably a bad example to give an endorsement to.
    As that would be broken AF balance wise.

    70% damage (DPS) + 30% resist (MPS) + 0% self regen (HPS) = 100%
    (60% base damage + 10% fire damage) + (20% base resist + 10% fire resist) = 100%
    That would be more along the lines of what I would expect.
    A distribution system.
    But even then you have to have a range limiter.
    You cant have 100% base resist, so you have to use a transient part.

    In fact I would even suggest that ice damage vs ice resist is a bias slider.
    You can have one or the other or neither....but not both.
    An Ice DPS would be easy to tackle by another Ice DPS as neither would have ice resistance. An ice tank could stall an Ice DPS
  • I also have no objection to asborption, as the defensive aspect should also be the regen aspect.
    Nor do I have a problem with efficiency biasing or 'leaky' shields.
  • @Rune_Relic

    That would be fascinating if they implement attacks with split damage type. I play mobas where they do a split between physical and magical damage for a single attack, but I don't recall them doing that for a mmorpg (maybe I never noticed in the tooltip). It's like diversifying your stock portfolio. A good attacker wouldn't put all his damage in one category. Nor would a good tank only block physical damage. (unless the seek to specialize in a niche market).
  • The problem is that its easy to exploit, if you're fighting a strong boss which deals mainly fire dmg it will be a piece of cake if fire dmg heals the tank. 

    @Shirikuryu ESO has different dmg types, fire/frost/lighting fall under spell resistance for example. There's also specialized resist to reduce only fire dmg. In the end everyone just ignores resist types and focuses on normal physical/spell resistance because its the safest option.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    @Rune_Relic

    That would be fascinating if they implement attacks with split damage type. I play mobas where they do a split between physical and magical damage for a single attack, but I don't recall them doing that for a mmorpg (maybe I never noticed in the tooltip). It's like diversifying your stock portfolio. A good attacker wouldn't put all his damage in one category. Nor would a good tank only block physical damage. (unless the seek to specialize in a niche market).
    Yes. If you think of it from a one off dungeon point of view. You are never sure what abilities the enemies within will have. So do you bring a variety of types to cover all bases that might bring down your base resist or do you gamble and just go without any special resist and hope the enemies dont do that kind of damage.

    It is easier with repeatable dungeons though. There you can fail and try again.

    One requires preplanning. One enables post planning. Thats a concept completely alien to most PvE players, but very familiar to PvP players.
  • @Rune_Relic I totally agree with the spread %s I was just showing a basic example of how it works. Typically its run from multiple factors like gear/passive effects/buffs all culminating to that over cap point. I cannot however, agree to the ice being weak to ice etc.

    If your skilled at the use of something you understand it better so offensively or defensively you shouldn't suffer more against something you know how to control. I'm not saying ice shouldn't be able to harm ice quite the contrary actually. Ice focus would have an advantage simply because they would also factor the most pen. on the offensive end.

    The over cap also shouldn't go much further than 120% at the high end as a hard cap to the over cap. Anything past that and the point of bosses being worthless if they element focus is an actual issue. I expect anything with an elemental focus however to have at least 20% if not 40%+ penetration rating.

    On the split damage end, all for it. That's pretty much it lol... It's a good way to factor and control/split resistances, keeping players from simply focusing and ignoring the mechanic all together. If I can absorb fire damage but have weak lightning resistance as a tank well then they could easily use a mix weapon(or skill) if they have natural fire damage to counteract my absorption.

    Couple that with penetration for their fire damage and I might actually lose the majority if not all my regen from fire even though I still negate the damage.
  • That's just asking for balance problems.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    @Bannith I know what you are saying about an ice specialist being someone who understand ice for example. So their attack and defense should be better than someone who does not spec in to ice.

    But that generates the same problem as a tank vs damage dealer.
    You dont want someone to be able to spec into both at the same time.
    Quite the contrary. You force them into a choice for the sake of balance.
    Someone who specialises into attack vs someone who specialises in defence.

    You could have 4 types of armour to go with stab/slash/cleave/crush.
    People who specialise in such weapons and people who specialise in the defense against such weapons.

    ie 50/50 attack/defense to begin with.
    then bias one way or the other.
  • While I liked the idea of needing resistance earlier in mmos, I grew to disdain them, you just started to need a set for this, a set for that, a mix of two others. Balancing aside, just having them all somewhere was kind of annoying to get them out once a week maybe.

    I would hope to see something more sophisticated than just pure "here have 10% fire resistance pants" if it comes to that at all, which I hope it doesn't.
    I would be okay with potions and temporary encantments that help you stay alive against some firebreathing monstrosity, but it should be a short term pve thing.
    Someone gears by chance right and you take a 30% dmg neglection hit? It's just not fun, or rewarding to play against equipment stats.
  • @Rune_Relic Did you ignore the penetration and over cap max? I get where your coming from but your basically trying to say that because player built for X they need to also be weak to X rather than being weak to Y. If the game is balanced properly no character (except maybe a pure tank) will get max reductions in all areas and that in itself require sacrifices in other areas.

    Really though that's like saying a warrior who would focus on physical damage(simply because I don't know if their doing the physical damage split but that would be awesome!) should be weak to physical damage. The ice mage example should be strong on both fronts to ice it's their focus, their mantra, their choice of existence really. The draw backs to a focus is if their penetration fails to punch through well they do minimal damage, while also potentially having sacrificed excessive defenses for say fire their natural elemental counter.

    You can't just say, "You need to be weak to your own element for the sake of balance!" that really doesn't make much since when your trade off could be something like this:

    Brittle: Your sheer focus on Ice magics has made you immune and even heals you in most circumstances. However with this comes a price you are now so infused with ice that your body has become brittle weakening your defenses against blunt physical attacks.

    On the other hand your offensive ice magics can bypass defensive wards to a degree far surpassing others. Allowing you to break through the guards and natural resistances of ice resistant monsters and people alike.

    Or

    Frost's Antipode: You are a true master of ice healing from it in most cases. Your natural elemental enemy now however has a ever present advantage over you. You cannot withstand searing heat well and must often find different ways to combat such attacks.

    On the other hand your offensive ice magics can bypass defensive wards to a degree far surpassing others. Allowing you to break through the guards and natural resistances of ice resistant monsters and people alike.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    @Bannith

    I agree with you on the trade off.

    Since we are limited already on how many stat points we can attribute, theoretically someone may be able to perk all resistances but they will be missing out on other perks like damage or HP.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Bannith said:
    @Rune_Relic Did you ignore the penetration and over cap max? I get where your coming from but your basically trying to say that because player built for X they need to also be weak to X rather than being weak to Y. If the game is balanced properly no character (except maybe a pure tank) will get max reductions in all areas and that in itself require sacrifices in other areas.

    Really though that's like saying a warrior who would focus on physical damage(simply because I don't know if their doing the physical damage split but that would be awesome!) should be weak to physical damage. The ice mage example should be strong on both fronts to ice it's their focus, their mantra, their choice of existence really. The draw backs to a focus is if their penetration fails to punch through well they do minimal damage, while also potentially having sacrificed excessive defenses for say fire their natural elemental counter.

    You can't just say, "You need to be weak to your own element for the sake of balance!" that really doesn't make much since when your trade off could be something like this:

    Brittle: Your sheer focus on Ice magics has made you immune and even heals you in most circumstances. However with this comes a price you are now so infused with ice that your body has become brittle weakening your defenses against blunt physical attacks.

    On the other hand your offensive ice magics can bypass defensive wards to a degree far surpassing others. Allowing you to break through the guards and natural resistances of ice resistant monsters and people alike.

    Or

    Frost's Antipode: You are a true master of ice healing from it in most cases. Your natural elemental enemy now however has a ever present advantage over you. You cannot withstand searing heat well and must often find different ways to combat such attacks.

    On the other hand your offensive ice magics can bypass defensive wards to a degree far surpassing others. Allowing you to break through the guards and natural resistances of ice resistant monsters and people alike.
    Yes you are quite right. I did think about that afterwards, next day at work :D
    Someone who goes fire would be weak to shock, ice, fracture, and any of the physical damage specialities.
    Speccing into one, is automatically speccing out of the others, and sacrificing them to some degree by default.

    Its still dualistic at the end of the day...or distributed if more than two aspects.

    I might bang out a quick random test simulation for a few ideas expressed here if I can find some time.

    @Shirikuryu Yes, quite right.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    WE HAS AGREEMENT!!! Alright something is wrong then! We all know people can't agree on the forums of anything about anything... joking aside. =P

    I'm glad we came to an agreement on this perhaps if we are lucky we can set out to create a system balanced enough the devs might implement it.

    DO YOU SEE US INTREPID!! =3

    Edit: Personally I love balance it's part of my life philosophy and even if this amounts to absolutely nothing, I'd love to continue discussions if you are all so inclined.
  • Oh man. Your enthusiasm is rubbing off on me. Ill be open to discuss some ideas. Shall we start with what stats will be involved?

    Health
    Mana
    Dodge
    Accuracy
    Resist x element
    Penetration x element
    Armor
    Physical Penetration
    Regen
    Movespeed?
    Strength
    Intelligence
    Critical%
    Block
    Parry?
    Attack speed?

  • I'm not entirely certain what all attributes for this they will be using. I'd assume this entire list is in the ballpark though. While we already have resistances roughly figured out why not move to physical resists and the penetrations?

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017

    lmao.....LETS GO! :d

    Shirikuryu was talking about energy from attacks.

    A long time ago I/we royal whatever, came up with the slider between reflection > resistance > absorption (specific attribute regen) on hit. More to allow for different play style of tanks (static build).

    That was on the shielding side. That would need balancing against attack skills in some way. But the problem was, as always, permablocking. It really isn't fun when that turtle refuse to pop their head out of that hard shell..ever. lol. Which no doubt will touch on penetration.

    Traditionally penetration has been dualistic with armour rating. They are both in effect static/passive effects rather than dynamic. So here you could start with a base 50/50 AR vs penetration and then increase one to sacrifice the other.

    Blocking in contrast uses a 'dynamic' shield/barrier which is the active combat. So how do you stop the permablock issue. One idea I was toying with is giving it a cost per second. So raising it for a brief moment (reactive) would be cheap. Raising it permanently would sap all your energy rapidly. Having no energy would automatically drop block and give it a cool down before it can be raised again (eg recovery cooldown = 0%-10% energy pool recharge time).

    However, increasing a regen rate would reduce your pool size and pool size would determine the highest burst damage. So defensive builds = sustain and offensive builds = burst.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Biggest problem we face is we don't know what resource pools there are attached to what attributes and how many there are. So we have to adlib there :(
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Oh man. Your enthusiasm is rubbing off on me. Ill be open to discuss some ideas. Shall we start with what stats will be involved?

    Health
    Mana
    Dodge
    Accuracy
    Resist x element
    Penetration x element
    Armor
    Physical Penetration
    Regen
    Movespeed?
    Strength
    Intelligence
    Critical%
    Block
    Parry?
    Attack speed?


    I would argue you will need health separate from resource pools but be related to the sum of all of the costed resources. That reflects every life has a finite energy. How you distribute that energy is upto you.

    These cost based resources would than have to cover physical based damage, energy based damage and RNG based damage at the very least. Granted pool size vs regen rate can balance the burst and sustain for each.

    SO... what attributes ? How many ? CC probably needs to be isolated from physical, energy and rng ?

  • Oh. Ok, lets talk about just the attack balance
  • I have a question. what will the attributes be? Will the be earth, fire, water and air or will there be more such as frost, thunder, dark and light? if that's the case you could have it so one counters the other in the same way card game do it 
  • Well, we should delve into both attack and defense? As they balance each-other out?

  • @Rune_Relic
    Indeed, things like block should be an active approach to them.

    We should separate what should be considered active and passive in terms of attack/defense.

    Mechanics like dodge/block/parry negate damage by 100% (assuming old stile rpg). And these mechanics typically negate both magic and physical. These are more powerful stats that should stay low interms of % and high only when active?

    While other stats like armor, resist are passive stats, always active?

  • nagash said:
    I have a question. what will the attributes be? Will the be earth, fire, water and air or will there be more such as frost, thunder, dark and light? if that's the case you could have it so one counters the other in the same way card game do it 
    We don't know 100% but so far there's fire, ice, lightning(gravity and light).

    This was seen in their mage trailer and discuss briefly in their Q&A.
  • gravity? now that is a interesting one. I would like to see hexes and dark magic but thats piqued my interest
  • Bannith said:
    I'm not entirely certain what all attributes for this they will be using. I'd assume this entire list is in the ballpark though. While we already have resistances roughly figured out why not move to physical resists and the penetrations?

    Sure. Stab(pierce), blunt(crush?), slash(slice? I think cleave kinda fits slash too)

    Cleave IMO is more of a AoE mechanic rather than an attribute type.
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