Sexualization of women from a woman's perspective

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  • Shunex said:
    imo, there needs to be a choice in-games, just like IRL people wear all sorts of clothing, that needs to be mirrored in-games, so people have the option of choosing their look, to dress functional or to dress less functional. it doesn't need to be one or the other dress how you want to dress and let other people do the same
    Totally agree with this. I am a female gamer and personally I prefer high heels and feminine looking clothing on my characters. I also respect that other female gamers prefer more functional and completely covering types of clothing. Only argument I do not agree with at all is to limit it to one or the other. In an MMORPG there should be variety, especially when it comes to armour/costumes. People have different taste in clothing (just like in RL like Shunex said) and this should also be reflected in the game.
  • I say leave it up to the player. think they already said you can use the look of items you like to create your own look. 1 player wants a full plate warrior the other 1 wants to be a bikini warrior.
  • I think it all depend of the artistic direction of the game. If Ashes of Creation is heading for something immersive and more realistic, armors should looks like fitting armors.  That doesn't mean that the game could not propose some more revealing outfits and costumes. I think a nice balance can be obtained.
    For example, FFXIV have a good mix between pretty armors, sexy armors, and protective armors. Players have the choice of what they are wearing the the glamour system. Everyone is happy. I think FFXIV is probably the best game at this day in term of fashion,

  • Well, going back to the OP...
    I think this isn't just about what we're wearing.

    I do feel like the female mage we see in Ashes videos says here hips overly much.
    Fine if that's the personality of that character but, for me, a bit to much to be standard.

    Everquest Next had a feature called Heroic Movement. Which mostly referred to action moves like the ranger we see jumping and rolling in the Art of War vid.
    I was always hoping they would include Villainous Movement, so we could have the option of being hunched over and dragging one leg behind us.
    Some of us in fantasy stories are villains not heroes.
    Some of us are more tragic than heroic.
    It would be nice if there could be more choices than just walking sexy.
  • Dygz said:
    Well, going back to the OP...
    I think this isn't just about what we're wearing.

    I do feel like the female mage we see in Ashes videos says here hips overly much.
    Fine if that's the personality of that character but, for me, a bit to much to be standard.

    Everquest Next had a feature called Heroic Movement. Which mostly referred to action moves like the ranger we see jumping and rolling in the Art of War vid.
    I was always hoping they would include Villainous Movement, so we could have the option of being hunched over and dragging one leg behind us.
    Some of us in fantasy stories are villains not heroes.
    Some of us are more tragic than heroic.
    It would be nice if there could be more choices than just walking sexy.
    On that regard The Elder Scrolls Online has  a very neat system with the personalities that one can select. It change the walk, run and idle animation and sometimes certain emote aswel.
  • Shunex said:
    imo, there needs to be a choice in-games, just like IRL people wear all sorts of clothing, that needs to be mirrored in-games, so people have the option of choosing their look, to dress functional or to dress less functional. it doesn't need to be one or the other dress how you want to dress and let other people do the same
    I am with you. I think there needs to be a choice.

    And I am honest: I am a male and I do like some sexy pixels in the games I play. Won't ever deny that. I'll even be somewhat sad if Ashes won't have any sexy clothing/armor. It doesn't have to be full bikini armor, but even that.. what's the harm? 

    I mean... Ashes of Creation is a fantasy game. Maybe I just didn't consume enough (although it's quite a lot) fantasy, but there always seems to be at least one character in fantasy that is quite revealing. So I kind of expect it to be a part of the genre.

    And if we go for the immersive/realistic-approach:
    1. There is sexy stuff in real-life on mass, so whats more unrealistic? No sexy clothing or some?
    2. Immersive is everything that fits the lore. If a group of people like revealing stuff it can be part of the lore.
    3. Armor should protect:
      - There is also clothing, that can serve the sexy needs
      - It's fantasy... there is other kind of protection
      - Common... Anyone really thinks a completely covering cloth or leather armor will protect you from foot-long teeth or a massive sword/hammer? It's basically the same as being naked!

  • They could have;
    work clothes (science)
    social clothes (economic)
    ceremonial clothes (religious)
    combat clothes (military)
    As long as they dont mix them up......do what you like.
    Thats the way I see it.
    I definitely expect to see ZERO armour rating on a string bikini.
    Thats not to say it couldnt have an allure rating in the economic zone.
    /shrugs
    Everything has a time and place. Thats all I am saying.
  • Chainmail bikini!!!
  • I'd like cloth armor and other such light armors can be more revealing than a heavy armor. if a heavy armor exposes skin, it's basically a useless armor and breaks immersion after a while.
    by the looks of it, cloth armors will be fairly proper. remember the livestream? I think that armor looks fine.
  • Hm, I was waiting for some one to post a thread like this, better go grab my popcorn. =w=

    Oh and btw, I could care less about either side, but I do agree with Dygz, give me my manly battle bikini! lol

  • Even far in the past we had revealing clothing. So with it's more medieval/magical environment a good mix would be viable and immersive don't you think? Let everyone wear what they want. Since the game will have many cosmetics I don't see personal appearance being something that would be limited anyways.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    The thing is... I totally approve sexy. I just dont approve slutty. And sadly pedo  / slutty is the direction most of eastern games are going.

    This for me is pedo and slutty. Sure it's kinda kawaii but its too much nudeness for me to think it's proper. It's still 8 years old body half naked.

    This is also slutty. Not sexy. 

    I hope most agrees with me on that. It seems both are TERA pictures (not on purpose, thats just my google images findings). 

    It's not that I have something against skin showing. For example this wizard outfit:

    It shows a lot of skin , but yet is not so oversexualized like the first 2. It's all about balancing it out.
  • lets just have skimpy armor like this
     
    and this 

  • I think here should be enough different Cloth choices, some revaeling and armor clothes, something rogue like (Hood, Long cloak) because there are so many different personal preferences. Simply, please make many different selections, that would be absolutely awesome. And also agree to post before, no pedo Little lolitas and so on, that's something i personally wouldn't Support.
  • If you get to dress up in bikini-mail armour, I expect the same thing for my male characters.
    But in all seriousness, I hope male customisation is as extensive as the female customisation. Often it gets overlooked.
  • You could have a casual outfit system where you could wear it out of combat and give those "outfits" a sexy feel. I'd prefer a realistic look for armor but then I'm not a woman so I'm probably not able to be objective about this.
  • Enrif said:
    Just saying, Sexy, or attractiveness is best shown if it's not cheap (blatant nudity) 
    Like, a Woman in a functioning Armor can still be sexy/attractive


    I think we have completely different definitons of sexy, but that's just me. 
  • Difficult topic.

    Turning to history two hundred years ago they had to put skirts on piano legs just in-case they inflamed men. What is overly sexualised or not depends upon the point of view of the observer and their upbringing and the culture and society they live in.

    As a female gamer too, I want to not just see that the only look I can get in games is 'hot thing' that is far beyond reality and doesn't give me choice.

    I love dressing my toons up in hot skimpy or tight stuff 'sexy' stuff, just as much as I love dressing them up in full blown burkas or even spending a day following someone disguised as a bird, or pretending to be a tree.... sometimes a game is just that. 

    I AM fed up with the homogenizing of the idea of what's sexy or not, after having developed body dysmorphia I had to work a long time to 'fix' my brain and realise that what I thought wasn't sexy was. 

    But that's it. Just because it's not my idea of sexy doesn't mean that it isn't someone elses. 

    And yeah, I don't personally mind sexualisation of men or women.
    I'm human. Humans love sex and that shouldn't be offensive. 

    And making clothes an almost non existant piece of string, well as has been said, as long as there's equality and they do it for all genders what's the problem. 

    The line is with the objectification and when people stop seeing people as people but the dolls in their imagination. When there isn't a choice for the gamer, but you're told, 'this is sexy' but again, as I trust that people are intelligent enough on the whole to understand the difference and censor themselves from acting upon any objectification thoughts in real life.  

    I think that this game is well on track to dealing with this right, giving everyone choice to wear or dress up however they want to. Covered or not. 
    I could be wrong. maybe we're going to get one body type with only one costume type. 

    Ah who knows 

    Waffle over

  • Everyone should have a choice. You decide if your steel lingerie is enough to keep you from getting your arse handed to you while looking good. Ill stick with full plate. Sexy time is after adventure and save the world time.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I feel like I don't have much more to add since plenty of people seem to share my thoughts. Probably needless to say, but these are my thoughts on this as a grill. 

    Sexy is ok. Less threads is ok. Less threads to the point of having nearly nothing at all? Ok! As long as you cover up the vital parts and make the costumes look as tailor made for the body as possible. Everything goes wrong when you add naked for the sake of just being naked. Everything goes wrong when the piece of armor looks like a one-size fits all Halloween costume.

    As long as there is a real purpose behind why it shows that much skin, I'll defend it to my grave EVEN if I might not chose to wear it myself.
    Just a few quick thoughts on things people usually bring up:

    Bikini: I would never go swimming irl in plate armor. In a siege for armor? I'd probably wear some more. Also, a bikini in metal so swim with? No thanks. Keep the bikini appropriate to it's intended function and all is good in my eyes.

    Cleavage: I'm proud of my boobs irl, I am proud of the characters I make. No need to hide, no need to flaunt just for the sake of showing.  I'd sport a nice sexy cleavage in the summer when it's hot and hide in an oversized knitted sweater in the winter. It's all about how classy and confident you can look while sporting either one of them. I always get as much cosmetic items anyways, trust me to change it up with the seasons! 

    Maid costumes: Totally ok as long as we stay clear of the cheap halloween section down aisle 5. Make the dress look like something someone honestly put in time, and  effort in and it will look nice. Also, I like maidcostumes because that means the males get that sweet sweet butler outfit : F 

    High heels: YAAAAS, so much yes. I have a weakspot for shoes. High heels being my "I can't resist this" thing. Don't ask me how many I own irl. Not all outfits look good with heels so lets get some flats in there aswell.


    Now, one of the reasons I play games is that I can be something that I can't be irl. 
    I can walk in heels, I can run in heels, but I can't swing a sword in them. Let me swing a sword in heels in the game!

    Another point is that I can dress my characters up in a way I would never dress myself up in. Taking it to realistic is for -me- like losing a bit of the charm of not being irl anymore.

    The key and red thread in my statements is "variation" and "options"  I respect those who don't share my view and hope they get to wear their preferences. If my they are allowed to stare another way, just like how it is irl~

    Edit: I'm all for having my char looking skimpy as long as I don't look "cheap"  and I could make the choice to look that way myself. Let me show legs and beewbs!


    Would I dress up my healer in that? YES!


    This aswell. I would just skip the hat and maybe put on some shorts...



    Example of cheap one-size-fits-all crap I can't defend. 
    https://images.gutefrage.net/media/fragen/bilder/cosplay-maid/0_big.jpg?v=1302344850000 <- would defend that concept thou.. 

  • First of all, let me begin by stating I'm a natural woman. I know, I know, hard to tell ... but yeah, I am.

    Now, having said that? Let's explore gameplay from my little pea brain. You see, a very odd thing happens when I create a character. She decides what she'll be. It's frustrating; I think I've made this great Ranger who's gonna be a cool chick in lots of dark leather carrying this awesome bow while her stalwart wolf hunts with her ... and I end up with a character who thinks less leather is very good, thank you so much, and you know, we should really carry a knife as well, and wolf? Pft. We need a cat companion! Oh, and you were thinking dark colors? Really? Bright colors. We won't hide ourselves!

    And so it goes. Yes, yes, my husband laughs at me. But this is just the way it is. Such is my life.

    What's all this mean? This means I would dearly love choices -- for both male and female characters. I'd like to have options where my Mage wears full formal robes because she's a bit stuffy, and my Thief distracts people because she shows hints of her ... bounty ... while she's picking their pockets. I'd love the same type of choices for male characters; I mean, bare chest for my perusal? A harness and that's it, for my eyes to feast on? Ok. I'm all for that. Additionally, these pesky characters I keep creating all, also, have their own tastes in partners, and their partners' appearances are a goodly part of those tastes.

    I would love these choices to be well-founded within the world we inhabit. As a parent of daughters, the Lolita/Lolly crap hurts my soul. The over-sexualization as the only striking feature of a character leaves me turned off; I'd rather encounter characters who're more than the hoochy-mama crap they're wearing. But that's just me.

    Bottom line? It would absolutely break immersion, for me, to have the KR "standards" of dress in this game. I don't need women in Maid costumes, tyvm, and not a single one of my characters (ok, maybe the Thief) would consider that worthwhile. They'd much prefer being known for their skills, their abilities, and their development.
  • Hey, guys? Forums are eating my posts again! I was trying to edit "things" to "thinks" when it got et!

    Ok, I'll retype it. *grumps*

    First let me begin by stating that I'm female; about as female as it's possible to get. As a female, I revel in being female, but I also know that sometimes, what's "hidden" is more tantalizing and appealing than what's displayed for everyone's perusal.

    Next? A very odd thing happens to me when I create my characters. It goes something like this: I think I'm creating this really cool Ranger chick, dressed in rich dark leathers, carrying an awesome bow, hunting with her beloved wolf companion. What ends up happening is she's created and develops a mind of her own. Rich dark leathers? Please. That's so cliche. How about a bright orange? And wolf companion? Hello? Did you not get the memo? I prefer CATS! Oh, and that bow? Yeah, that's useful, but I'd really prefer a dagger or two in my boots, tyvm.

    *sigh*

    In short, each character I create becomes her own person, so to speak, with her own thoughts of how things will be. For this reason I'd much prefer that we have options in clothing. However, the Lolly/Lolita crap that's so prevalent? Well, all I can say is, as the mother (and step-mother and grandmother) of daughters, that offends me on so many levels. Further? I'd like to see stats added or taken away for these choices. If my Cleric wants to wear something a bit more revealing, she takes a reduction in her Defense. I think that's eminently logical.

    But it's still about choices, and also about immersion. I mean, do I want to be moving in a world populated by characters in Maid's uniforms? Not really, no. While the Thief archetype in my mind thinks it's useful to have a distracting outfit, the better to rob you, she also thinks it's just flat-out stupid to walk around in something that shows your whooo-haaaa. Just sayin'.

    Further? I'd love these same types of choices for male characters. I mean, I'm very much all for seein' a well-developed male chest! And abdomen, and legs, and ... well. You get the picture. Same stat reduction, but same choices.

    This truly isn't a woman-only question; it's much more than that. It's about being able to develop a character that lives in that world, rather than developing a character that looks cool while kickin' arse. The character can fit within the world, still choose to be more or less revealing, without caving in to the influx of "slutty" apparel.

    But that's just my opinion.
  • Kasyee said:
    The thing is... I totally approve sexy. I just dont approve slutty. And sadly pedo  / slutty is the direction most of eastern games are going.

    This for me is pedo and slutty. Sure it's kinda kawaii but its too much nudeness for me to think it's proper. It's still 8 years old body half naked.

    This is also slutty. Not sexy. 

    I hope most agrees with me on that. It seems both are TERA pictures (not on purpose, thats just my google images findings). 

    It's not that I have something against skin showing. For example this wizard outfit:

    It shows a lot of skin , but yet is not so oversexualized like the first 2. It's all about balancing it out.
    Yes, I agree completely with what you have to say. there is a very clear line after which whatever is made, is slutty. before that, most armors can easily be sexy.
    Also, you are right, that is TERA. about that, have you seen the castanic female armors? some have even less 
  • While I'm not against skimpy armour in games, I'd much prefer something that fits the class fantasy

    I don't want to see a female tank wearing fuck all armour because it doesn't fit the fantasy of a tank. On the other hand though, I can see a mage/magic user wearing more revealing clothes and I feel that would fit the class fantasy.

    That being said, despite what I want, giving players the choice of how they look, a transmog system like WoW is the best option. Player choice is always preferable.
  • Isende said:
    I'd like to see stats added or taken away for these choices. If my Cleric wants to wear something a bit more revealing, she takes a reduction in her Defense. I think that's eminently logical.

    But it's still about choices, and also about immersion. I mean, do I want to be moving in a world populated by characters in Maid's uniforms? Not really, no. While the Thief archetype in my mind thinks it's useful to have a distracting outfit, the better to rob you, she also thinks it's just flat-out stupid to walk around in something that shows your whooo-haaaa. Just sayin'.

    Further? I'd love these same types of choices for male characters. I mean, I'm very much all for seein' a well-developed male chest! And abdomen, and legs, and ... well. You get the picture. Same stat reduction, but same choices.

    This truly isn't a woman-only question; it's much more than that. It's about being able to develop a character that lives in that world, rather than developing a character that looks cool while kickin' arse. The character can fit within the world, still choose to be more or less revealing, without caving in to the influx of "slutty" apparel.

    haha
    Has me thinking about Power Girl and Batman who use the symbology on their chests to distract criminals.
    Blessings from the gods protect the Cleric...that's miracles for ya.
    And, yeah, what's happening with her hands while folks' eyes are distracted?
    Especially if it's a Cleric/Rogue.

    I sometimes play sluttily dressed males in MMORPGs. And my male Tauren in WoW only wears kilts for leg armor. My female ratonga in EQ2 is a slave whose can only wear a scarf and jewelry for armor...her main armor slots are just starting rags.

    Slut can also be a cool character choice - especially if the RPG includes social skills. I prefer flirting to overcome conflicts, rather than combat.
  • I'd want to wear scantily clad armor as a Tank precisely because it doesn't fit the expected image of a Tank.
    Same reason why I have that level 80 ratonga in EQ that adventures in starting rags.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Enrif said:
    Just saying, Sexy, or attractiveness is best shown if it's not cheap (blatant nudity) 
    Like, a Woman in a functioning Armor can still be sexy/attractive

    The point is this:

    Dress your character the way you feel like it !

    Don't like skimpy armor because it's not real armor ? don't wear skimpy, just do NOT try and ban skimpy armor from the game, and guess what your full plate armor is not real either it's all pixels.

    If I want my character to look like this:





    That should be my choice !

    You want to wear full plate that is your choice !

    This is a topic where japanese games are far ahead of us, they do not let cultural or sociopolitical bullshit dictate what can and cannot be in a video game.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Yeah I wouldn't use japanese games/society as an example... As there is a culture of objectifying and over sexualization of children that stretches out from cyber into real life


  • Jesus Tap Dancing Christ... is anything sacred? Can we have anything that's not polluted by politics?
  • As a female - I don't mind skimpy outfits - especially if my male comrades have some abs on show - I mean sure ladies and gentlemen loook beautiful and we can show off their beautiful bodies. However - I don't like immersion breaking outfits regardless if they are skimpy or not. If we are going medieval attire I really don't want to be seeing sailor outfits, bunny onesies and T-shirts etc 
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