Quite a few Solo players are super active PvP'ers for example :P Others again are Crafting maniacs :P And some other likes to simply fight alone to see what they can do :P Just to mention 3 types :P
So basically we resorted to arguing semantics ? What you call a group, I usually call a party. What I call a group, you call solo with other players around.
If one is to make an analogy using FPS (First Person Shooter, not Frames Per Second) You'll be on a server where there's essentially, say 16 players, eight a side. You've joined the server solo, and fight, but you're not actually soloing, you are in a group with seven other players. All headed towards the same objective (Unless they want to farm kills, but you know..) You may or may not choose to join a specific fireteam or squad. But you are still in a group.
Another example, you are going for a night out, solo. As in, you go alone. But once you enter the establishment and stand on the dancefloor, despite being solo, you start dancing with others, right? You dance, and dance, and decide to bounce, go somewhere else. The next week, you go, man, I enjoyed that, I'll do it again, you go to the same place, and see the same people, and some new ones. And there you go dancing again. You get to know them, without perhaps ever taking an interest in their lives, but because you see them often. After a few times, you might exchange numbers, facebook, whatever it is. And then you get a message, listen we're going to X tonight, would you care to join us there instead?
If you use this in terms of MMO, and let's take exploring as an example. If you want to explore the mines of Moria, you can do so. But if you are solo (read alone) That might proof rather difficult, and tedious, because those damned Orcs just keep respawning, and surround you. Now, if there is a group, others will take aggro too, and there's generally less Orcs to deal with. Which, in turn makes going through the mines a lot easier.
Do I think one should be able to go through the mines alone? Sure. Do I think it should be very hard and time consuming to do so? Yes, I do.
Consider this scenario, I am unsure what class you plan on playing first. So I'll assign a random one.
You, the dexterous ranger, a ranged class decides to explore. But low and behold, the area is effectively populated by a particularly savage breed of Ogres. You decide to go forth, and quickly find yourself overwhelmed, and have to play and think well and fast, but they keep on coming. Nearly at the end of your ropes, a fellow adventurer comes by, a mighty fighter, he helps you, because whatever reason. Maybe he wants to explore too, maybe he's just there for a quest. But his very actions make life easier for you, as yours make it easier for him, you both push through into a more quiet area within the dangerous territory and go your separate ways, what you did though, essentially was grouping up. Are you in a party? No, are you grouped, as you work together, for this specific encounter, yes. So, deeper in you go. And once again, you find yourself overwhelmed, retreating is difficult, as you're in the heart of dangerous, yet uncharted territory. But there, the fighter that helped you earlier, he's having issues too, so, naturally you gravitate towards eachother. And together, you can push through, without ever partying. But you recognise his name now, and he yours. The area is now explored, and you decide to go back to the nearest friendly outpost, or a less dangerous, less packed region of the map. You may need a coffee in real life. You come back, check your map, and see yet another region of uncharted territory, deciding to go check it out you may run into familiar faces, again. At which point you can tell yourself, we can either party up, to make it easier, or hope we run into each other when the need is high.
Now, this little scenario above sounds unlikely, perhaps, but it's essentially what used to happen all the time. You can apply the same thing to PvP, and I don't just mean caravans, but random encounters in the open world too. You may run into someone who attacks you, you may be in a bit of trouble, or perhaps its two on one. And someone sees this, and tries to help you out together you seem to overcome the enemies. You may go so far as to thank him for the assist, and there you have it, the first baby steps in making friends and acquaintances. Suppose he doesn't help. You'll remember he didn't. You die, and get whatever penalty will make it into the game. And later you see him in a similar scenario, and you decide, no, screw that, you didn't help me, I'm not helping you. These choices reverberate and end up having a lot more meaning.
When in PvE, and you can just explore freely, without any real hint of danger, you won't have been in a pickle, in a life threatening (to your character) situation, and the fighter that came along had, because of that, far less impact. Hell, you even forgot he was a fighter when you run into him again.
It's little encounters like that, that enrich an MMO for me. And the lack of these considerations is what keeps me wholly uninterested in most MMO's I have played recently. Despite excellent visuals, and even combat mechanics.
As a final note. I know you can make friends in other ways too. I often do so via RP and, I usually solo RP. Random encounters within a city, or other popular RP hub. And I managed to join a guild on an adventure several times, without actually being in their guild. Essentially solo play, but with groups, with others. RP alone is just boring.
It's not semantics when you write things like, "What you are describing is basically a single player game, with multiplayer encounters." Inherently, MMORPGs are not single-player games - but some people like to complain that Soloers should just play single-player games if they don't Group.
Group covers both parties and raids. Solo is adventuring outside of a party or raid. Solo is not synonymous with single-player. Soloers play MMORPGs because they want to interact with other players - they just prefer to not join a party or a raid while completing quests and engaging in combat. All kinds of other stuff to do with players in MMORPGs besides Grouping to complete quests/engage in combat. If you understand that, you should not be saying that Soloers play MMORPGs like they are single-player games.
I'm with you on the dance analogy. I am not with you on the exploring analogy. I might be alone while exploring Solo. I might be near other people while exploring Solo. In games where it's possible, part of my greeting other people will most likely include giving them a buff. That doesn't mean I'm going to Group with them. I'm not going to ask them to Group with me. I might agree to Group with them for a while if they ask me. I might refuse. Depending on the specific situation. Most often I'm going to talk to them and dance/emote with them for a while and then continue to adventure Solo.
I'm unlikely to become surrounded by Orcs. Stealth works wonders. Key to Soloing is learning to pull one mob from the group at a time. Another important key is pulling them where you have a wall at your back so that you don't get hit from behind by adds.
How easy it is to go through the mine Solo depends on a number of factors - especially my goals for going through the mine. If I stealth through the mine, it's likely to be relatively easy. If I am trying to clear the mines of all Orcs and kill the boss, yeah, that might be difficult and tedious - especially if the mines are designed for an 8 person party. I'm probably not going to be trying to kill a boss designed for a an 8 person party. If I go into the mines with an 8 person party who is killing all the Orcs, that is probably going to be longer and harder than me just stealthing through the mines alone. Or I could stealth behind the 8 person party and wait for them to clear the mines for me. Doesn't mean I will have no challenges remaining stealthed. Doesn't mean I will never have to fight. Doesn't mean I will never be killed. What it does mean is that I can minimize the number of combat encounters I will face.
Your scenario is unlikely because if I am Solo, exploring mines filled with Ogres, I will be stealthed. If I were fighting Ogres, I would have pulled them to a secluded area where I can have my back to a wall, so they would not just keep coming at me. But, sure, it's possible that a Fighter might see me in combat with an Ogre and decide to help. I don't agree that the Fighter's actions would inherently make life easier for me, might make life more difficult for me. What I hope would happen is that we get in at least a few minutes of RP, sharing some of our past adventures. Whether we adventure together all depends on what the Fighter's objectives are and what his playstyle is. It will be somewhat problematic since he's probably going to have an objective of killing the Ogres in order to explore the mines since he is unlikely to have Stealth. If he has Stealth, then yeah, we would probably explore together - because we play the same way and that is fun. If we choose to explore more deeply together, we may or may not be in a Group. If I decide I'm going to help him fight the Ogres, sure, I might agree to create a party with him. If we're just Stealthing through the mines together, we may not create a party. And then while his presence may not make my exploration any easier, it might make it more fun to have someone tagging along with me. We would both be Solo, but not alone. We might be in a "group" but we would not be Grouped. And neither being in a group or Grouping would make the exploration easier, it would just make it more enjoyable...hopefully. If our personalities and playstyles don't clash.
The farther you go in your scenario, it just seems like you aren't very good at Soloing. But... for whatever reason, I might choose to add the Fighter to my Friends List. We don't have to have fought together for me to want to add him to my Friends List. Maybe I add him simply because we had fun sharing the tales of our adventures with each other and decide to meet for lunch in game at some tavern and hang out. Maybe we decide to go visit his freehold so he can show off how he's decorated it. Maybe he's interested in visiting my freehold to purchase one of the mounts I've bred.
What you describe used to happen all the time - especially when the vast majority of the playerbase was hardcore time/hardcore challenge... and pretty much the only thing to do was combat - especially before crafting professions were implemented and house decorating and pets and tons of costumes were available. But there were always those of us who were casual challenge players more interested in exploring and following the story of the world than in killing everything in sight and seeking uber gear. Just more difficult to find each other back then. Still not necessarily to find each other today. Ashes, I think will change that due to the way nodes are designed.
The first baby steps to making friends has nothing to do with combat. There are all kinds of ways to make friends in MMORPGs and have fun hanging out with them without ever joining them in combat in any way. Especially in Ashes, we will be building friendships by working together to level our home nodes. I can make friends with people in town just by being known as the person that helps the town grow by harvesting mushrooms. All kinds of ways to help other players without combat being involved - or joining a party.
Um. Stealthing through mines doesn't mean there is no danger, there are no pickles and nothing is life threatening. I frequently stealth through areas where I can be one-shotted. Once that happens too often, I head back to a less dangerous area. When I do the carebear challenge and level without killing any form of animal life, that is very dangerous and life threatening and -of course- I'm not going to be Grouping with players who kill stuff. That is a very challenging way to play - and frequently life threatening. Doesn't mean I'm never interacting with other players. Sometimes I'm interacting with masses of other players. I'm just not Grouping with them for combat. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you like to Group, Ashes should have plenty of content for you. We agree.
But the devs should not do that by making Solo content more difficult and tedious. Rather, they should accomplish that by making content that is challenging even for 8 person parties to complete. And content that is challenging for raids to complete. The by-product of that is it will be very difficult, if not impossible, for players to complete that content alone.
But, there should also be content designed for Solo players to complete alone - easy, average and difficult. Just like there should be content designed for 8 people should have a range of easy, average and difficult. Just like there should be content designed for raids should have a range of easy, average an difficult.
Ashes will have a wide variety of ways to encourage players to interact with each other and fight alongside each other and also to form parties and raids. No reason that needs to entail making Solo content hard and tedious.
I don't agree that the Fighter had less impact if he didn't help me fight mobs. All depends on your playstyle - which is what I keep trying to tell you. I don't see any reason why I would forget he is a Fighter. I suppose it would depend on what gear the Fighter used. But, hopefully I would know he was a Fighter because he told me about his past adventures. And, hopefully I would remember he is a Fighter because I later visited his freehold and saw Fighter memorabilia among the decorations.
What happens when leveling Solo becomes hard and tedious? I don't start Grouping to make it easier and faster. I stop playing the game until the devs nerf the content so that leveling Solo becomes more comfortable.
But, that shouldn't really be an issue in Ashes due to sieges and caravans. I don't have to wait for "Solo content". I will likely escort caravans to protect goods I want shipped to other places and to help ensure that my town/city has the goods it needs to level and/or survive sieges. More common than making friends while exploring mines, I expect to be making friends for a variety of reasons as I help build and protect my town/city and as I escort caravans to help the town/city thrive. Not because the devs made Solo content hard and tedious.
In Ashes, what encourages players to fight alongside other players is not that Soloing is hard and tedious. What encourages players to fight alongside each other is that it's not possible to defend a town or city or metropolis alone. There will likely be other players defending the same caravan you are. And that's just the beginning of making friendships which build community in Ashes.
It's not semantics when you write things like, "What you are describing is basically a single player game, with multiplayer encounters."
Yes, it is. We were both essentially operating under different definitions.
Inherently, MMORPGs are not single-player games - but some people like to complain that Soloers should just play single-player games if they don't Group.
I know, and that was my entire point, as I said previously, solo for me was alone.
Group covers both parties and raids.
Solo is adventuring outside of a party or raid.
Solo is not synonymous with single-player. Soloers play MMORPGs because they want to interact with other players - they just prefer to not join a party or a raid while completing quests and engaging in combat.
All kinds of other stuff to do with players in MMORPGs besides Grouping to complete quests/engage in combat.
If you understand that, you should not be saying that Soloers play MMORPGs like they are single-player games.
As terribly condescending as the tone of that post might be. I already explained we were operating under different definitions of the terms. Which, I for one am glad we cleared up.
As for my point about content, it makes no difference if you are in a group. Or if you are solo with other players around. As my argument was, that not all content, even in the open world should be doable alone. Which is where I used the word solo. If we operate under your definition, solo is essentially playing with other people but not being in a group. So if you want to call that solo. That's fine. I'll rephrase and say alone.
I'm with you on the dance analogy.
I am not with you on the exploring analogy.
I might be alone while exploring Solo. I might be near other people while exploring Solo.
In games where it's possible, part of my greeting other people will most likely include giving them a buff.
That doesn't mean I'm going to Group with them.
I'm not going to ask them to Group with me.
I might agree to Group with them for a while if they ask me. I might refuse. Depending on the specific situation.
Most often I'm going to talk to them and dance/emote with them for a while and then continue to adventure Solo.
Sure, you might be alone when exploring, but to then be able to explore everything, should be very hard. It, as I said gives the world meaning. Nothing annoys me more than reading a lovely quest, that says, out armed patrols have trouble navigating through "Zone/area on map" and then I go there, and I can just walk through with essentially no problem. This makes the entire quest feel fake and contrived.
I'm unlikely to become surrounded by Orcs. Stealth works wonders.
Key to Soloing is learning to pull one mob from the group at a time. Another important key is pulling them where you have a wall at your back so that you don't get hit from behind by adds.
Sure, this is very true in modern MMO's. You just have standard spawn locations, and the mobs stand still all day. It feels bland, fake, and quite simply seems to be very dated. And this is something I am advocating against too. If you pass a ranger, or someone with an animal companion, says for example a wolf. Stealth is not going to save you. Or if a Mage is using something like truesight. Now, you also mentioned you don't get mobbed, neither do I, in normal MMO's because everything is static, you can easily plan your route. And you learn aggro range. If I pull that mob, the aggro range is so and so, this means I won't aggro the mob/mobs that spawned there. Again, I am advocating a world that feels a bit more alive, if the other mob is looking your way, and see their buddy getting attacked, they should have some response, you can program it as a line of sight thing, like some stealth games, but this doesn't seem feasible to me. Although it would seem cool, and realistic. But you could have it do a shout, which is exactly what would happen if you'd catch someone infiltrating your lands. And thus, you get swarmed, which means you need other players around, or have patience as you try and plan a route through.
How easy it is to go through the mine Solo depends on a number of factors - especially my goals for going through the mine.
If I stealth through the mine, it's likely to be relatively easy.
If I am trying to clear the mines of all Orcs and kill the boss, yeah, that might be difficult and tedious - especially if the mines are designed for an 8 person party.
I'm probably not going to be trying to kill a boss designed for a an 8 person party.
If I go into the mines with an 8 person party who is killing all the Orcs, that is probably going to be longer and harder than me just stealthing through the mines alone.
Or I could stealth behind the 8 person party and wait for them to clear the mines for me.
Doesn't mean I will have no challenges remaining stealthed. Doesn't mean I will never have to fight. Doesn't mean I will never be killed. What it does mean is that I can minimize the number of combat encounters I will face.
Of course, and that's proper rogue gameplay, that is also considering stealth is a permanent buff, which we don't know yet. I'll even go one further, mines tend to be dark, so stealth should be more effective than in say an open field, during daylight, without fog. As for your idea of stealthing behind a party clearing the place, that's already what I before defined as group play, and you define as solo. So, as I said, using your definitions, you solo the place, you are, however, not alone. If you are, however, spotted and go into combat, the mobs should, once again call for help, this is a natural response, and thus you have the opportunity to get swarmed again, which is where the fighter I mentioned in my analogy comes in. He helps you defeat them, so you can, once again return to stealth and explore. Now, before I continue, I would like to make it clear, that I don't want EVERY zone to be like this, as I said, if you go explore a forest, you can most likely explore to your hearts content, but if you explore an area that is known to be populated by semi intelligent humanoids, it would make sense to have to rely on other players, solo or not.
Your scenario is unlikely because if I am Solo, exploring mines filled with Ogres, I will be stealthed. If I were fighting Ogres, I would have pulled them to a secluded area where I can have my back to a wall, so they would not just keep coming at me.
But, sure, it's possible that a Fighter might see me in combat with an Ogre and decide to help.
I don't agree that the Fighter's actions would inherently make life easier for me, might make life more difficult for me.
As I said, I don't think the scenario is that unlikely if you choose to explore a zone that is known to be dangerous. There are plenty of ways to sniff out stealth, and if you get spotted whilst in the middle, it stands to reason that the Ogres in my example, flock towards the sound of battle. So having other players around, to divert the attention away from you. Which might even allow you to stay in stealth (if it's a permanent buff) Would, in fact, make your exploring inherently easier. As they are distracted by battle. Or they have to fight on two fronts.
What I hope would happen is that we get in at least a few minutes of RP, sharing some of our past adventures.
Whether we adventure together all depends on what the Fighter's objectives are and what his playstyle is.
It will be somewhat problematic since he's probably going to have an objective of killing the Ogres in order to explore the mines since he is unlikely to have Stealth. If he has Stealth, then yeah, we would probably explore together - because we play the same way and that is fun.
I am with you on this, the encounter initiation RP sharing of adventures, etc. That's exactly the type of thing I am hoping for As for adventuring together, I will go ahead and assume that falls under your definition of grouping. That choice will always be up to you, of course. What I am saying, however, is that given how dangerous the area is, and how easy it might be to be spotted, even stealth, again, if we assume stealth is going to be a permanent buff rather than temporary. You may or may not choose to, indeed work with the fighter. If combat is going to come, might as well share the load, type of thing. And, if you do get spotted, and nobody else is around, getting swarmed should be natural. Which is one of the reasons the area is hard to get through. You're in hostile territory after all. And yes, if you somehow manage to get by on stealth without being detected, that's a reward in and of itself, by having mastered stealth to such a degree, you can infiltrate like that. But again, it should not be easy, and you'd need to be very aware of your surroundings.
I would also like to mention, that prior to this discussion, going stealth wasn't considered, stealth generally have an easier time. Alas, not all classes have stealth. If the enemy are elves, for example, you might find sneaking to be harder, because they get a bonus to detection, because of their incredible hearing (Just as an example)
If we choose to explore more deeply together, we may or may not be in a Group.
If I decide I'm going to help him fight the Ogres, sure, I might agree to create a party with him.
Yes, and perhaps, at some point you might not have a choice, as you may reach a much more densely populated area.
If we're just Stealthing through the mines together, we may not create a party.
Sure, and if that is a possibility, go for it. If you allow me to make one more analogy. If you have ever played DnD, you'll know that even with incredible sneak, you don't always succeed. Or, a mob might be able to pierce right through stealth as it were. At which point, going at it alone is very difficult and time consuming, and you'll instead be moved, naturally, because you don't necessarily want to deal with the headache, to join forces, be it with, or without a party. Player reliance. You have my back, I'll have yours. Which is something that I feel is critical, if you find yourself in such a dangerous location. Again, none of this applies, if you explore a zone that's not as hazardous.
And then while his presence may not make my exploration any easier, it might make it more fun to have someone tagging along with me.
We would both be Solo, but not alone. We might be in a "group" but we would not be Grouped. And neither being in a group or Grouping would make the exploration easier, it would just make it more enjoyable...hopefully.
If our personalities and playstyles don't clash.
Personality clashes you won't really know until you're talking with the other person. As for the whole solo/alone/group thing. Again, differences in definitions. So, with this point, I agree. It might be more fun when you group/party up. That doesn't have to make it easier. But what I was saying, was it does make it easier than being alone. Which is what I meant with solo.
The farther you go in your scenario, it just seems like you aren't very good at Soloing.
Ad hominem? I am not sure, I choose to believe it isn't. Just a misunderstanding of what I mean, which I will take the blame for, as English isn't my native tongue.
But... for whatever reason, I might choose to add the Fighter to my Friends List.
We don't have to have fought together for me to want to add him to my Friends List.
And nowhere did I say that, you keep putting words in my mouth. I am saying is, if you've gone through my scenario, together/solo i.e. not alone. You are much more likely to initiate a dialogue. Or be spoken to. Which may result in you adding the fighter to your friend's list. You might add him because he's a crafter, or makes cheap potions. Whatever. There are plenty of reasons to add someone. What I am saying is, if he was just a random guy killing things, you'd probably be far less likely to add him. Because neither of you really need eachother. You can just stealth through, and he'll slice through the mobs like a hot knife through butter. And what I am advocating is, neither of these latter scenarios are what you would want, not for an area that is supposed to be dangerous. If you meet the same fighter, but in the forest, as he's killing bears or whatever. And you're just there to explore the beautiful forests that can be created in unreal 4. Interaction is less likely. The zone isn't dangerous enough to have to somewhat rely on others.
Maybe I add him simply because we had fun sharing the tales of our adventures with each other and decide to meet for lunch in game at some tavern and hang out.
Maybe we decide to go visit his freehold so he can show off how he's decorated it.
Maybe he's interested in visiting my freehold to purchase one of the mounts I've bred.
Yes, and if you just see him in the forest, where there's no real danger, the chances of finding that out aren't actually as high. If you cater to the "alone" crowd, which again, I used the word solo for before. People don't need to interact, and often times. I, through no fault of my own, end up ignoring whispers for the longest time, because I don't have to pay attention, and don't notice the message.
As I said, I really want the devs to create a world, where, you can play solo, but have to rely on other players, to go to certain areas of the world. And they don't have to be places where you need eight people. But two, maybe three solo players in order to comfortably get through. And making it hard to do alone.
What you describe used to happen all the time - especially when the vast majority of the playerbase was hardcore time/hardcore challenge... and pretty much the only thing to do was combat - especially before crafting professions were implemented and house decorating and pets and tons of costumes were available.
Not just hardcore players, but the content was tuned in such a way, you really preferred there to be other people. Even if you were alone. Just so it would be far less of a pain in the ass. I'll give an example in WoW Vanilla, despite many of its flaws, had a slow levelling system, and often times, it was rather difficult. Especially when encountering humanoids who run away, and get pulled in bunches. That game created the necessity of grouping, because of mob tagging. (If you were questing) Player A,B, and C are in a group, completing the quest. You, player D, just want to explore, and because they are pulling the mobs, you have an easier time stealthing around. These were frequent occurrences. Two, to three expansions later. They removed all this difficulty and made levelling, if you were questing a single player experience, you did things alone. The chances of running into someone else questing were really small. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it was really small. As a result, the making of new friends through that particular avenue was halted. I won't even mention the dungeon finder, and specifically the crossrealm one. But the game became far and far less social. Now, for someone like me, and possibly you, if I understand your posts correctly. This isn't a big problem, I make a lot of friends through RP. That's why I stuck around for so long. But many of the friends I made, people with whom I shared intimate details of my life, and vice versa. Stopped playing. As the game is, by its nature a living, breathing thing. People come, people go. But the problem is, people going. They were friends, you went through hard times together, helped eachother out, and they left. Outside of RP servers (My first server was a normal PvE one) I don't know anyone outside of my guild, save for a crafter or two. In addition to that, the guilds have naturally shrunk. So the game, despite being a LOT bigger with all the content added. Feels empty. Unless I am on an RP server, which is focussing on the social. But it's player driven. The game systems themselves no longer require players to interact, it's up to the players, and the annoying truth is, outside of RP, most players don't interact with others. And I am advocating that AoC breaks this mold and builds the game, with the social ideas in mind. Which they seem to be doing, with the caravan system and nodes. But I would like to see it outside of these avenues too. As they are mostly PvP centric.
But there were always those of us who were casual challenge players more interested in exploring and following the story of the world than in killing everything in sight and seeking uber gear. Just more difficult to find each other back then.
Still not necessarily to find each other today.
Ashes, I think will change that due to the way nodes are designed.
I am one of these people. I read quest texts, because I like the lore. But back when it was a requirement if you had any hopes of finding out where to go, everyone had to read it, lest they did the quests before. Which, again, is a game design decision. No quest markers on the map. Exploration, it came naturally, as you were never a hundred percent sure where to go. Explorers are lore people are not easy to find, especially now. And I think Ashes will change it too, but not only because of the way the nodes are designed, because the coming together of players, both solo and groups is based around PvP. Which, granted, is an excellent step. But they also need to make this step for PvE. At least for the in lore dangerous zones.
The first baby steps to making friends has nothing to do with combat.
There are all kinds of ways to make friends in MMORPGs and have fun hanging out with them without ever joining them in combat in any way.
Especially in Ashes, we will be building friendships by working together to level our home nodes.
I never said it was about combat, I said it was about strife, and I didn't say it was the only way, I said it was one way. As you say, having fun hanging out, though, not all players do this. I for one do, as do you, by the sounds of it, but never everyone. And you can play alone, and help your node level, this doesn't create friendships, playing together be it solo it in groups, that does. You need not join anyone in combat for friendship, this is true. But for the players for which this is true, they are usually the kind that RP's and take time to talk to players, because they want to. In order to keep a game healthy, you want to keep the players that aren't as naturally inclined to do these things. And, as I iterate, one of the ways to do this, is through combat, and creating a reliance on other players. How do I know this? When I started MMORPG's I was very young, I had no real interest in RP, heck, at the time I didn't even know what it was. I went to major cities to inspect the raiders and be envious of their gear. One of the few ways that I made friends, and many people with me, was because I needed other players to complete objectives I had set for myself.Exploring the wailing caverns (the cave not instance) for example. Or simply completing quests to level up, so I could get my next talent. I could do these things alone, but they were, at all times, easier to complete, and more fun to do with others. Which, sadly isn't the case. Almost every MMO I've played recently. I reach level 10/15 within two hours. And that's when I play alone. There's no real hardships for me to require other players. And other players don't require me. I try to group up sometimes, but as soon as they realise I read the quests and what not. They leave, it's too slow, everyone is in a rush. Back when I first started, the game didn't allow you to rush. It was slow paced, and difficult. This is why I played it for so long before I discovered RP. Friends I made that way.
I can make friends with people in town just by being known as the person that helps the town grow by harvesting mushrooms. All kinds of ways to help other players without combat being involved - or joining a party.
If you harvest them alone, chances are people don't know it's you, unless there is some leaderboard type thing, that allows people to see a list of villagers that helped grow the node to what it is today. I am not too sure they'll realise otherwise.
And again, you're putting words in my mouth, by suggesting that somehow I think that combat is the only way to make friends.I didn't say it was. I am merely saying that it, much like how they'll decide levelling, the node, professions work. It's a tool. And, as past experience for me has shown, it's an important tool. Just like being helpful is. Fun fact. The first person I ever interacted with in WoW. I even remember the setting. Durotar, the humans in the ruined castle. Tiragarde keep. I was still new to the game, and kept dying on my Mage. As I kept running out of mana. I asked for help. And this Hunter came. Ocemaster, Phöenix guild Stormrage-EU. He helped me clear the quest, I asked him plenty of things, we became friends, he was Dutch too, I was Dutch, so we had an easy time communicating, I even joined the guild later. We are still friends, even though we haven't played WoW together since ICC 25. So yea, general friendliness is another way, of course.
< Um. Stealthing through mines doesn't mean there is no danger, there are no pickles and nothing is life threatening. I frequently stealth through areas where I can be one-shotted. Once that happens too often, I head back to a less dangerous area.
Exactemundo. That's my point, as a result you can't, without relying on other players, explore that dangerous area. As I said, stealth isn't always the answer.
When I do the carebear challenge and level without killing any form of animal life, that is very dangerous and life threatening and -of course- I'm not going to be Grouping with players who kill stuff.
You can choose to do that, and again, the grouping issue, I am just saying, if you want to level up killing evil shit, like Orcs and Ogres, or Undead, whatever. You may have to rely on others. You can possibly do it "alone" but it'll be difficult. Which, again is exactly what I've been saying, we've just been using different terminology.
That is a very challenging way to play - and frequently life threatening.
It's also player made, like RP. Which is fine, but it's not that big a part of the player base that does it. And as I said before, they need to make the game challenging, so people rely on eachother. Because, frankly, that's one of the few ways, some parts of the playerbase get to make these social connections outside their guilds, and will ultimately translate into a healthier pool of players, which, I hope we can agree, is better for both us as players, and IS as a company.
Doesn't mean I'm never interacting with other players. Sometimes I'm interacting with masses of other players. I'm just not Grouping with them for combat.
Again, definition differences, I won't keep beating this dead horse.
If you like to Group, Ashes should have plenty of content for you. We agree.
I am happy we can agree on that
But the devs should not do that by making Solo content more difficult and tedious.
I never said this. Perhaps I did before we were on the same page in terms of definitions. Alas. Replace solo with alone. And even then I said, it should not be possibly to soley level "alone". If I can level all the way to the maximum, alone, without the reliance on other players, that's the path most players will take. The path of least resistance. This is in human nature.
Rather, they should accomplish that by making content that is challenging even for 8 person parties to complete. And content that is challenging for raids to complete.
The by-product of that is it will be very difficult, if not impossible, for players to complete that content alone.
I feel we are slowly starting to get on the same page. Though I would prefer various group sizes. Some dangerous places requiring parties of eight. Some, a few will do. But that's not too important. I've been saying all along, I there should be places that are so dangerous, that going out alone, exploring is going to end up killing you, or at the very least have you play the game of your life and end up surviving, just barely, which is a reward in and of itself.
But, there should also be content designed for Solo players to complete alone - easy, average and difficult.
I agree, though terms seem to get confused. So let's just call it alone. That content should definitely exist, however, I feel, and I strongly feel, it'll end up being detrimental if you can get to max level, all alone. Without ever having to rely on anyone else. This is what happens with WoW. And if you don't RP, and start fresh, on a new account, no friends. You'll find it very difficult to stay interested for long.
Just like there should be content designed for 8 people should have a range of easy, average and difficult.
Just like there should be content designed for raids should have a range of easy, average an difficult.
Again, we agree.
Ashes will have a wide variety of ways to encourage players to interact with each other and fight alongside each other and also to form parties and raids.
No reason that needs to entail making Solo content hard and tedious.
If there's a somewhat linear path from level 1 to level max. That allows you to do only "alone" content. I strongly, very strongly disagree. All avenues of gameplay, should at some point encourage players to work together. If you want to go into the forest alone to harvest mushrooms, go for it. If you want to go into Orc territory to harvest a different type of mushroom. No. You can do it solo. But you'd rely on other players having to keep the Orcs busy. Alone content is harvesting, doing simple quests. Gather venison from the deer in the forest. Of course you can do stuff like that alone. It makes sense for you to do that alone. You can choose to go into the forest and gather mushrooms with someone. Just to have someone to talk to and what not. But never should that be a requirement. But "alone content" to defeat an encampment of savage Orcs, that should not exist. Having a quest that asks you to slay Orcish scouts that may be lurking, go at it alone, have fun. You should be able to take them out 1 v 1 or even 2 v 1. No problem. But if the same guy, as a sort of follow up, asks you to slay the leader of a nearby camp. No, you should not be able to do it alone, unless you can get in unseen, and poison his drink, or something along those lines.
I forgot who it was, but someone mentioned the quest chains in WoW. That's exactly it. You start out by doing something rather easy, but the quest gets harder the further you get in. From having to kill solitary animals, you are then asked to go to a camp of Elves and gather Elf ears. You can wait and wait, until you can get one Elf alone, slay it, and wait. Which makes it slow, and tedious to do alone. Or you can decide to work in tandem with the Warrior and his Mage friend and slay the Elves that way.
I don't agree that the Fighter had less impact if he didn't help me fight mobs.
All depends on your playstyle - which is what I keep trying to tell you.
Au contraire, my friend. If the fighter just passed by and did nothing to interact with you, or help you in a precarious situation. The impact he's had on you is far, far less than when he helps you. And that has nothing to do with your playstyle. No matter your playstyle, if someone passes by, it's not memorable. If you walk through a supermarket. You pass by a lot of people, none of which will really stick in your memory. Unless they have like unusual features. Like that guy/girl is really attractive. Or whatever. No, if a random, standard person passes you by. That person has had ZERO impact on you. If that same person decides to help you. "Mate, that cheese you're buying, it was in the paper this morning, the hygiëne in that factory is abysmal, I'd recommend this cheese instead, similar taste and price." You'll remember that person.
Say you go out, and you find yourself being the target of random violence. These two lads suckerpunch you, and start kicking you. Many people would just pass by, and walk faster, so they won't become the target of the violence. You won't remember those people for long. But there comes this one person, who drags them off you, and fends them off, helps you in a taxi, or whatever. You'll remember that person.
In short playstyle has little to do with it.
I don't see any reason why I would forget he is a Fighter.
This was merely an example of the fact that despite you having seen him, you don't really notice him. As he doesn't interfere with you, interact, or help, or anything. You are busy doing your thing, trying not to die. Your brain won't register it. It might, but mostly it won't. It was merely an attempt to illustrate my point.
I suppose it would depend on what gear the Fighter used.
With dual classes, I'll assume identifying a class by gear isn't always possible. He might be a Mage wearing leather as his second class is rogue. Again, it was merely a hypothetical point
But, hopefully I would know he was a Fighter because he told me about his past adventures.
Obviously, that means you interacted, and thus he'll be memorable, he didn't just pass by. Although, let's be realistic for a second. If neither of you really have a reason to help one another, because it's easy enough to do alone. What are the chances of meeting someone who'd randomly tell you about his past adventures. You would often times be lucky if you get a "ty" or "thanks" if you buff them.
And, hopefully I would remember he is a Fighter because I later visited his freehold and saw Fighter memorabilia among the decorations.
Again, you interacted with him, which, when in the middle of doing your own thing, if player dependency would not be a thing. Would sadly, not be as common. Hence why I advocate systems that encourage it. And what I have been typing, is one of many ways to do that. I am not saying do this and nothing else. I'm saying, use all the tools at your disposal.
What happens when leveling Solo becomes hard and tedious?
I don't start Grouping to make it easier and faster.
I stop playing the game until the devs nerf the content so that leveling Solo becomes more comfortable.
Definitions again, change solo to alone. You'll gravitate towards other players, as they'll gravitate towards you.
But, that shouldn't really be an issue in Ashes due to sieges and caravans.
I don't have to wait for "Solo content".
Which, again is PvP centric, and an amazing idea to encourage natural world PvP.
I will likely escort caravans to protect goods I want shipped to other places and to help ensure that my town/city has the goods it needs to level and/or survive sieges.
More common than making friends while exploring mines, I expect to be making friends for a variety of reasons as I help build and protect my town/city and as I escort caravans to help the town/city thrive.
Not because the devs made Solo content hard and tedious.
And that's good. However, there are a great many players who have very little interest in PvP, and might, MIGHT just PvP a little when their city is under siege. But these things are very rare. As it takes months to set up. And if you've ever done massive scale world PvP you'll know it's an absolute clusterf*ck. With that in mind, the knowledge that not everyone will be doing or enjoying PvP. You need systems that encourage you to interact with other players in the PvE world too. I myself for example, have no interest, at all, in defending a caravan.
In Ashes, what encourages players to fight alongside other players is not that Soloing is hard and tedious. What encourages players to fight alongside each other is that it's not possible to defend a town or city or metropolis alone.
No, but these are massive projects, as I said, that will take a long time to set up. And once it starts, it's complete chaos, it naturally drives you to fight alongside players. But, again, only in a PvP format. PvE needs similar things.
There will likely be other players defending the same caravan you are.
And that's just the beginning of making friendships which build community in Ashes.
One of the ways, it's ridiculous and silly to limit it to that. It's just one of the many ways. RP being another. And the PvE as I've been talking about yet another.
PS: This took a whole lot longer to write than I thought. I won't be doing this again. Because after this, now that the definitions are settled and we still disagree, we are not going to see eye to eye, and the conversation will only start to circle.
If I'm adventuring Solo in an Ogre lair because I am a pacifist, non-combatant miner who abhors killing animal life and am pursuing the carebear challenge of reaching max character level with 0 kills, I am not going to join a party or raid with other players who are killing stuff. A Fighter who appears while I'm being attacked by Ogres and kills them is not really helping me. And, from an RP perspective is violating my character's principles. So, if the Fighter is going to move through the mine killing Ogres, I would interact with him and strive to convince him to be a carebear, but I wouldn't Group with him. That is the fun of playing an MMORPG rather than playing a single-player game. The interactions and conversations we have with other players.
In order to encourage players to Group, you don't make mining more difficult and tedious to Solo. Rather, you provide bonuses that make mining more advantageous while in a party - extra harvest and extra xp, etc. That way, I'd be more likely to create/join a party with the Fighter if he agrees to help me mine without killing any Ogres. Although, most likely, I would only agree to join a party with other players I know are also pursuing the carebear challenge.
We start building friendships as we work together to level a node from one Stage to the next. You make it seem like friendships only begin with combat. Caravans don't really take a long time to set up. Also caravans are PvX; not PvP.
Like I said, we disagree. And that's fine. Though if you are RP'ing like that, when you die, you should probably also re-make your character, much like I do in a game like Skyrim.
Bonuses are a nice idea, but usually don't work. I don't know of any examples where it does.
Like I said, we disagree. And that's fine. Though if you are RP'ing like that, when you die, you should probably also re-make your character, much like I do in a game like Skyrim.
Bonuses are a nice idea, but usually don't work. I don't know of any examples where it does.
Right. People Solo precisely because they don't want to be told by other players how to RP or how to engage in combat.
I expect Ashes to include lore regarding how/why people return from death. What really never works is Soloers choosing to Group because the devs have made Soloing tedious.
I just want to note that the Devs are aware of solo players and are willing to accommodate them within Ashes. As has been mentioned before, nothing in the definition of "massively multiplayer" makes a game exclusively about group-oriented content.
I think its been mentioned before but Richard Garriott who coined the term MMORPG has specifically said it referenced player numbers or server capacity, which went beyond MUDs of the time. It had nothing to do with grouping.
Regardless of what mmorpg means, the way Ashes is being developed there better be content for solo players. This whole world will grow and evolve through player interaction at every level. You want the gamers who tend more to solo to be playing Ashes just as much as those who only group. If not the overall world development will suffer. The stories we will get to create will suffer.
This shouldn't even be a topic, us vs. them, group vs solo, casual vs harcore. If you want Ashes to be successful, like I assume we all do or else why are we even here chatting, you want as many players playing this game, regardless of their preferred style. There are multiple ways Ashes is being developed. from nodes to crafting to trade, that will require the worlds to have high server pops in order to function as intended.
I just don't understand the point of playing with other people only to play alone. If I want to do that I'd just play a game designed for solo and just join a voice chat to socialize.
That being said I don't think everything should take a group. Sometimes you just want to play for a half hour. In those situations I usually craft or gather or go do some quests. Admittedly I do play solo sometimes because I just feel anti-social but I don't expect to be able to run dungeons or raids.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to play by themselves but I really don't understand why instanced content should be made for single player. Maybe if you had some scaling technology that scales with party side... that seems to be something that could add content to grouped players while appealing to the solo player.
I just don't understand the point of playing with other people only to play alone. If I want to do that I'd just play a game designed for solo and just join a voice chat to socialize.
That being said I don't think everything should take a group. Sometimes you just want to play for a half hour. In those situations I usually craft or gather or go do some quests. Admittedly I do play solo sometimes because I just feel anti-social but I don't expect to be able to run dungeons or raids.
Solo players don't play alone. They don't join parties and raids for combat. Solo players, for the most, part don't want to be able to clear group content their level. They don't want to be gated from exploring those areas. They should be able to stealth through the dungeon if they have the skills for it. Doesn't mean they should be able kill a boss designed for an 8-person group.
But, again, there's tons of stuff to do with other players that doesn't include combat.
Instanced Solo content would ensure that it remains Solo content, rather than Groups slicing through that content like it's a piece of cake.
I'm not necessarily advocating instanced Solo content, but I would love to have Solo pets and costumes that show other players that I defeated a challenging Solo boss. Great for all kinds of social gatherings.
There will be solo activities that can be done but this is an MMO. If you want to play a solo game then play a single player game. Ashes will be a game where you rely on other players to get things done, yes, you can advance as a solo player but nowhere near as far or as fast if you had a group.
"Now, most of those players don't have the time for stuff like that. They have jobs and families that mean they are now casual time/hardcore challenge players."
It's not that the players themselves aged and evolved, it's the the proportion of hardcore time hardcore challenge to total of players in MMO has changed.
Back in UO and EQ, with less than 1 million subs most people who participated were hardcore. But when MMOs attracted more people, they became a minority. Their amounts didn't change, and the ones that played 15 years ago have been replaced with new hardcores, so there is nothing there - just a smaller proportion of players.
Nowadays, you could estimate people who partcipate in raids while they're current at about 1-3% of the playerbase. It used to be way higher in the old MMOs, because it was the only content. If endgame raids and such were the only content nowadays, the others would probably eventually quit from being bored.
I left FF14 largely because devs trivialized crafting in order to not let people get raid-caliber gear without running raid. It also didn't help that they had you get tons of stacks of 99 items to make mats to make equipment, and the inventory wasn't too friendly to that (lack of inventory, or too many raw materials to make sub materials). I didn't want to pug, guild was too small to reliably raid, and I was more interested in the crafting. The last bit that got me away might have been RNG within craft. You had to design rotations based on chance of procs happening at some specific points...it became very complex maths (and if you failed, you lost the very valuable mats, hello performance anxiety)...to make placeholder gear only world-first guilds even use (because its quickly surpassed by token and raid gear).
I figure AoC hit on all the right points there. Crafting not trivialized, no RNG/complex proc maths involved in the actual craft. And I won't feel I have to participate in raid or miss out on good gear. If I can gather, craft, explore solo and occasionally party for certain things, I'll be happy. I'm a hardcore time and hardcore challenge person, but not in the typical 'raid' way. I'll probably be the best in some very specific craft on the server I'm on. I'm an aspie, so obsession is my thing, but I largely prefer solo...in an evolving game that happens to have other players.
It is that the playerbase aged and evolved. Hardcore time/hardcore challenge players aging into casual time/hardcore challenge players is a significant factor in the change in proportion. Not the only factor. As home PCs and internet access became more prevalent, more casuals joined the player-base. 100% of the playerbase being hardcore/hardcore has dwindled down closer to 30%.
Hardcore/hardcore players would stick around for endgame camping and raiding. Casuals would typically quit before endgame. Or quit shortly after reaching endgame. These days casual challenge folk will stick around after endgame for crafting and house decorating - maybe for pets. We are pretty much saying the same thing with minor, nit-picky differences. -------------------------------------------
Are there times when you do socialize with other players? What aspects of MMOs do you enjoy that you can't get from a single-player game?
For instance, I like to see what players are wearing and how they have decorated their homes.
As the 20-something aged, they were replaced with new 20-something players later. The amount of hardcore/hardcore is probably higher, the % of the total is much lower. So the aging didn't change much except maybe raise the average player age (I guess 50 years old didn't play MMORPGs as much in 1997).
"Hardcore/hardcore players would stick around for endgame camping and raiding."
I wouldn't. I had a friend playing FF11, telling me enthusiastically about the endgame at lv 75, camping bosses that respawn 3 days later and can only be killed by one alliance (ie its not one boss per alliance, its 1 gets it, others get nothing)...after 2+ hours of constant non-stop combat. I was disgusted. Wasting hours for maybe a chance at maybe the chance to fight a boss for 2 hours for maybe a drop I can use? I'll likely win the lottery first. Also hours doing nothing before it spawns sounds positively boring, like watching grass grow. Fishing is a lot more fun, at least you see progress.
And I was disgusted more that it was apparently the ONLY endgame. World bosses as only thing to do... Then I heard people had to carry their entire inventory worth of swaps and macro-swap multiple times per fight. I didn't even want to try it again (I had played in 2003). It felt positively horrible, a chore, sucked all the fun out. And that's something considering FF11 is the game that made me wary and allergic to PUGs (due to being forced to party to level, and how toxic it was even if it was just the wait to have 6-man group and go back to 6 once someone left, with the party inevitably disbanding during the wait cause someone else had to go).
I'm a hardcore challenge person, but camping world bosses is not my idea of fun. Gimme engaging crafts that make relevant gear, not just augment raid gear. I also want to explore, find rare materials that are rare because hard to find rather than raid boss drop. I want to tame stuff, or breed stuff, experiment. I'll note my experiments and build an encyclopedia worth of knowledge, which I'll mostly keep to myself. I might share with guildmates who seem trustworthy enough, but don't intend to make the info public domain. Casuals wouldn't even last long enough to make experiments that are off the beaten path, let alone know it all.
"Are there times when you do socialize with other players?"
Guildmates, friends I also know in real life. And people I met in the game that left a positive impact on me (it happens, it even happened in FF11, and not with people I partied with - I had befriended a high lv crafter who used honey to make beewax, and I was farming honey on my Thief).
"What aspects of MMOs do you enjoy that you can't get from a single-player game?"
It's not complete at any point, it always gets patched. New content all the time. Never truly the max level and very best gear for very long. Your character(s) can evolve over time. And the playstyle of classes, too.
"For instance, I like to see what players are wearing and how they have decorated their homes. "
I mostly meet people while I craft or gather. It's mostly them bumping into me (if I'm crafting I'm usually on the ground in town). I've been asked to craft for others, without even trying to advertise myself. Other moments didn't have people talking much, and dungeon people were the least likely to care about me, regardless of how good or bad I did my job. If there was talk it was about the boss mechanics and not-dying to it. Or cursing the tank who can't get aggro at all.
What matters are the percentages. Because that is what caused the devs to start accommodating casuals more and more in their game design. So the aging changed things significantly.
I consider crafting to be casual challenge. Exploring is also casual challenge. So, I would flag you as hardcore time/casual challenge.
You didn't mention it under things you enjoy in MMORPGs that you can't do in a single player game, but you covered in the section directly above it... Even though you Solo quite a bit, you still socialize in-game with your guildmates, friends from real life and friends you met while playing. I was hoping that was the case. Thanks for sharing your answers!
There will be solo activities that can be done but this is an MMO. If you want to play a solo game then play a single player game. Ashes will be a game where you rely on other players to get things done, yes, you can advance as a solo player but nowhere near as far or as fast if you had a group.
For me this statement is only partially correct.
Yes, in an mmorpg we will all have to rely on other players to get things done.
But everyone's goals will be different. How you want to advance in Ashes and the speed at which you want to advance will be different than me. And my preference different from others. It is not correct to assume everyone playing Ashes will want to have the same experience or have the same goals.
Personally I could care less about how quickly I progress because being fast is not my preference. I could also care less about being on the front lines of a siege or the first to complete a difficult raid.
I plan on exploring and largely having my own free hold where I raise a farm and tend to my crops and animals. To survive, I will have to interact with players to sell my goods in order to keep moving along. That neither takes a group nor a speed run to be done. Yet I will still be providing important resources for the community as a whole.
My points are players who spend most of their time solo, still contribute to the world and are still a vital part of the mmorpg. And we should not assume we share the same goals as everyone else.
I'll keep it shorter this time. As you either simply don't read my post, or don't comprehend the meaning behind it. Either because my English is shite, or because I can't give words to my ideas all too well. I tend to ramble on. Alas.
What I said, in short was.
The world needs to be vibrant, it needs to make sense. You can solo the world, if you so desire. That is, if solo means not in a group, and not without other players.
There also needs to be content for when you're alone. Crafting would fall under this for example. Or missions in areas quite immediate to your node.
The further you venture out, the potentially more dangerous areas become. And when you enter a "high risk" area. And you go at it ALONE. You should have trouble. There are other options.
You can go at it alone in plenty of other places.
@Fantmx example of solo play, it would make sense within the game world. And there is absolutely no issue of him doing it solo.
If he were to have said, I'm going to this high risk area, where endless patrols have vanished, never reporting in. Trained soldiers of your nodes army/militia. Should you be realistically expecting to go at that alone? Is it possible? With sufficient time and skill, probably.
There will be a range of challenge - even in high risk areas. In those high risk areas: There should be some challenges that people can Solo, ranging from easy to difficult to impossible. There should be some challenges that require an 8-person party, ranging from easy to difficult to impossible. There should be some challenges that require a 40-person raid, ranging from easy to difficult to (potentially) impossible.
I should be able to go into the high risk area with endless patrols alone. Yes. Should I be able to complete my quests alone? Depends on what the quests are. Should I be able to kill everything I encounter? Probably not. Especially if the area contains a boss designed for an 8-person party or a 40-person raid.
And I said that people should be able to enter high-risk areas alone and face a range of challenges - from easy to impossible. Good idea is subjective. All depends on the specific goals of the person adventuring in the high risk area alone.
Crafting and gathering, that should be the solo content. I for one am sick of the hand holding, carebear MMOs that have come to dominate the genre. Its a MMO, if you want to play a game by yourself go play a single player RPG. I miss the days where you had to group in order to get anywhere or kill anything. It's about forming connections with others through shared experiences and hard won battles. This is just my opinion, too much solo content would detract from what I love about the genre, the need to work with others to accomplish mutual goals.
Crafting and gathering, that should be the solo content. I for one am sick of the hand holding, carebear MMOs that have come to dominate the genre. Its a MMO, if you want to play a game by yourself go play a single player RPG. I miss the days where you had to group in order to get anywhere or kill anything. It's about forming connections with others through shared experiences and hard won battles. This is just my opinion, too much solo content would detract from what I love about the genre, the need to work with others to accomplish mutual goals.
carebear - single player You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
Comments
Others again are Crafting maniacs :P
And some other likes to simply fight alone to see what they can do :P
Just to mention 3 types :P
If one is to make an analogy using FPS (First Person Shooter, not Frames Per Second) You'll be on a server where there's essentially, say 16 players, eight a side. You've joined the server solo, and fight, but you're not actually soloing, you are in a group with seven other players. All headed towards the same objective (Unless they want to farm kills, but you know..) You may or may not choose to join a specific fireteam or squad. But you are still in a group.
Another example, you are going for a night out, solo. As in, you go alone. But once you enter the establishment and stand on the dancefloor, despite being solo, you start dancing with others, right? You dance, and dance, and decide to bounce, go somewhere else. The next week, you go, man, I enjoyed that, I'll do it again, you go to the same place, and see the same people, and some new ones. And there you go dancing again. You get to know them, without perhaps ever taking an interest in their lives, but because you see them often. After a few times, you might exchange numbers, facebook, whatever it is. And then you get a message, listen we're going to X tonight, would you care to join us there instead?
If you use this in terms of MMO, and let's take exploring as an example.
If you want to explore the mines of Moria, you can do so. But if you are solo (read alone) That might proof rather difficult, and tedious, because those damned Orcs just keep respawning, and surround you.
Now, if there is a group, others will take aggro too, and there's generally less Orcs to deal with. Which, in turn makes going through the mines a lot easier.
Do I think one should be able to go through the mines alone? Sure. Do I think it should be very hard and time consuming to do so? Yes, I do.
Consider this scenario, I am unsure what class you plan on playing first. So I'll assign a random one.
You, the dexterous ranger, a ranged class decides to explore. But low and behold, the area is effectively populated by a particularly savage breed of Ogres. You decide to go forth, and quickly find yourself overwhelmed, and have to play and think well and fast, but they keep on coming. Nearly at the end of your ropes, a fellow adventurer comes by, a mighty fighter, he helps you, because whatever reason. Maybe he wants to explore too, maybe he's just there for a quest. But his very actions make life easier for you, as yours make it easier for him, you both push through into a more quiet area within the dangerous territory and go your separate ways, what you did though, essentially was grouping up. Are you in a party? No, are you grouped, as you work together, for this specific encounter, yes. So, deeper in you go. And once again, you find yourself overwhelmed, retreating is difficult, as you're in the heart of dangerous, yet uncharted territory. But there, the fighter that helped you earlier, he's having issues too, so, naturally you gravitate towards eachother. And together, you can push through, without ever partying. But you recognise his name now, and he yours. The area is now explored, and you decide to go back to the nearest friendly outpost, or a less dangerous, less packed region of the map. You may need a coffee in real life. You come back, check your map, and see yet another region of uncharted territory, deciding to go check it out you may run into familiar faces, again. At which point you can tell yourself, we can either party up, to make it easier, or hope we run into each other when the need is high.
Now, this little scenario above sounds unlikely, perhaps, but it's essentially what used to happen all the time. You can apply the same thing to PvP, and I don't just mean caravans, but random encounters in the open world too. You may run into someone who attacks you, you may be in a bit of trouble, or perhaps its two on one. And someone sees this, and tries to help you out together you seem to overcome the enemies. You may go so far as to thank him for the assist, and there you have it, the first baby steps in making friends and acquaintances. Suppose he doesn't help. You'll remember he didn't. You die, and get whatever penalty will make it into the game. And later you see him in a similar scenario, and you decide, no, screw that, you didn't help me, I'm not helping you. These choices reverberate and end up having a lot more meaning.
When in PvE, and you can just explore freely, without any real hint of danger, you won't have been in a pickle, in a life threatening (to your character) situation, and the fighter that came along had, because of that, far less impact. Hell, you even forgot he was a fighter when you run into him again.
It's little encounters like that, that enrich an MMO for me. And the lack of these considerations is what keeps me wholly uninterested in most MMO's I have played recently. Despite excellent visuals, and even combat mechanics.
As a final note. I know you can make friends in other ways too. I often do so via RP and, I usually solo RP. Random encounters within a city, or other popular RP hub. And I managed to join a guild on an adventure several times, without actually being in their guild. Essentially solo play, but with groups, with others. RP alone is just boring.
Inherently, MMORPGs are not single-player games - but some people like to complain that Soloers should just play single-player games if they don't Group.
Group covers both parties and raids.
Solo is adventuring outside of a party or raid.
Solo is not synonymous with single-player. Soloers play MMORPGs because they want to interact with other players - they just prefer to not join a party or a raid while completing quests and engaging in combat.
All kinds of other stuff to do with players in MMORPGs besides Grouping to complete quests/engage in combat.
If you understand that, you should not be saying that Soloers play MMORPGs like they are single-player games.
I'm with you on the dance analogy.
I am not with you on the exploring analogy.
I might be alone while exploring Solo. I might be near other people while exploring Solo.
In games where it's possible, part of my greeting other people will most likely include giving them a buff.
That doesn't mean I'm going to Group with them.
I'm not going to ask them to Group with me.
I might agree to Group with them for a while if they ask me. I might refuse. Depending on the specific situation.
Most often I'm going to talk to them and dance/emote with them for a while and then continue to adventure Solo.
I'm unlikely to become surrounded by Orcs. Stealth works wonders.
Key to Soloing is learning to pull one mob from the group at a time. Another important key is pulling them where you have a wall at your back so that you don't get hit from behind by adds.
How easy it is to go through the mine Solo depends on a number of factors - especially my goals for going through the mine.
If I stealth through the mine, it's likely to be relatively easy.
If I am trying to clear the mines of all Orcs and kill the boss, yeah, that might be difficult and tedious - especially if the mines are designed for an 8 person party.
I'm probably not going to be trying to kill a boss designed for a an 8 person party.
If I go into the mines with an 8 person party who is killing all the Orcs, that is probably going to be longer and harder than me just stealthing through the mines alone.
Or I could stealth behind the 8 person party and wait for them to clear the mines for me.
Doesn't mean I will have no challenges remaining stealthed. Doesn't mean I will never have to fight. Doesn't mean I will never be killed. What it does mean is that I can minimize the number of combat encounters I will face.
Your scenario is unlikely because if I am Solo, exploring mines filled with Ogres, I will be stealthed. If I were fighting Ogres, I would have pulled them to a secluded area where I can have my back to a wall, so they would not just keep coming at me.
But, sure, it's possible that a Fighter might see me in combat with an Ogre and decide to help.
I don't agree that the Fighter's actions would inherently make life easier for me, might make life more difficult for me.
What I hope would happen is that we get in at least a few minutes of RP, sharing some of our past adventures.
Whether we adventure together all depends on what the Fighter's objectives are and what his playstyle is.
It will be somewhat problematic since he's probably going to have an objective of killing the Ogres in order to explore the mines since he is unlikely to have Stealth.
If he has Stealth, then yeah, we would probably explore together - because we play the same way and that is fun.
If we choose to explore more deeply together, we may or may not be in a Group.
If I decide I'm going to help him fight the Ogres, sure, I might agree to create a party with him.
If we're just Stealthing through the mines together, we may not create a party.
And then while his presence may not make my exploration any easier, it might make it more fun to have someone tagging along with me.
We would both be Solo, but not alone. We might be in a "group" but we would not be Grouped. And neither being in a group or Grouping would make the exploration easier, it would just make it more enjoyable...hopefully.
If our personalities and playstyles don't clash.
The farther you go in your scenario, it just seems like you aren't very good at Soloing.
But... for whatever reason, I might choose to add the Fighter to my Friends List.
We don't have to have fought together for me to want to add him to my Friends List.
Maybe I add him simply because we had fun sharing the tales of our adventures with each other and decide to meet for lunch in game at some tavern and hang out.
Maybe we decide to go visit his freehold so he can show off how he's decorated it.
Maybe he's interested in visiting my freehold to purchase one of the mounts I've bred.
What you describe used to happen all the time - especially when the vast majority of the playerbase was hardcore time/hardcore challenge... and pretty much the only thing to do was combat - especially before crafting professions were implemented and house decorating and pets and tons of costumes were available.
But there were always those of us who were casual challenge players more interested in exploring and following the story of the world than in killing everything in sight and seeking uber gear. Just more difficult to find each other back then.
Still not necessarily to find each other today.
Ashes, I think will change that due to the way nodes are designed.
The first baby steps to making friends has nothing to do with combat.
There are all kinds of ways to make friends in MMORPGs and have fun hanging out with them without ever joining them in combat in any way.
Especially in Ashes, we will be building friendships by working together to level our home nodes.
I can make friends with people in town just by being known as the person that helps the town grow by harvesting mushrooms. All kinds of ways to help other players without combat being involved - or joining a party.
Um. Stealthing through mines doesn't mean there is no danger, there are no pickles and nothing is life threatening. I frequently stealth through areas where I can be one-shotted. Once that happens too often, I head back to a less dangerous area.
When I do the carebear challenge and level without killing any form of animal life, that is very dangerous and life threatening and -of course- I'm not going to be Grouping with players who kill stuff.
That is a very challenging way to play - and frequently life threatening.
Doesn't mean I'm never interacting with other players. Sometimes I'm interacting with masses of other players. I'm just not Grouping with them for combat.
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If you like to Group, Ashes should have plenty of content for you. We agree.
But the devs should not do that by making Solo content more difficult and tedious.
Rather, they should accomplish that by making content that is challenging even for 8 person parties to complete. And content that is challenging for raids to complete.
The by-product of that is it will be very difficult, if not impossible, for players to complete that content alone.
But, there should also be content designed for Solo players to complete alone - easy, average and difficult.
Just like there should be content designed for 8 people should have a range of easy, average and difficult.
Just like there should be content designed for raids should have a range of easy, average an difficult.
Ashes will have a wide variety of ways to encourage players to interact with each other and fight alongside each other and also to form parties and raids.
No reason that needs to entail making Solo content hard and tedious.
I don't agree that the Fighter had less impact if he didn't help me fight mobs.
All depends on your playstyle - which is what I keep trying to tell you.
I don't see any reason why I would forget he is a Fighter.
I suppose it would depend on what gear the Fighter used.
But, hopefully I would know he was a Fighter because he told me about his past adventures.
And, hopefully I would remember he is a Fighter because I later visited his freehold and saw Fighter memorabilia among the decorations.
What happens when leveling Solo becomes hard and tedious?
I don't start Grouping to make it easier and faster.
I stop playing the game until the devs nerf the content so that leveling Solo becomes more comfortable.
But, that shouldn't really be an issue in Ashes due to sieges and caravans.
I don't have to wait for "Solo content".
I will likely escort caravans to protect goods I want shipped to other places and to help ensure that my town/city has the goods it needs to level and/or survive sieges.
More common than making friends while exploring mines, I expect to be making friends for a variety of reasons as I help build and protect my town/city and as I escort caravans to help the town/city thrive.
Not because the devs made Solo content hard and tedious.
In Ashes, what encourages players to fight alongside other players is not that Soloing is hard and tedious. What encourages players to fight alongside each other is that it's not possible to defend a town or city or metropolis alone.
There will likely be other players defending the same caravan you are.
And that's just the beginning of making friendships which build community in Ashes.
Yes, it is. We were both essentially operating under different definitions.
Inherently, MMORPGs are not single-player games - but some people like to complain that Soloers should just play single-player games if they don't Group.
I know, and that was my entire point, as I said previously, solo for me was alone.
Group covers both parties and raids.
As terribly condescending as the tone of that post might be. I already explained we were operating under different definitions of the terms. Which, I for one am glad we cleared up.
As for my point about content, it makes no difference if you are in a group. Or if you are solo with other players around. As my argument was, that not all content, even in the open world should be doable alone. Which is where I used the word solo. If we operate under your definition, solo is essentially playing with other people but not being in a group. So if you want to call that solo. That's fine. I'll rephrase and say alone.
I'm with you on the dance analogy.
Sure, you might be alone when exploring, but to then be able to explore everything, should be very hard. It, as I said gives the world meaning. Nothing annoys me more than reading a lovely quest, that says, out armed patrols have trouble navigating through "Zone/area on map" and then I go there, and I can just walk through with essentially no problem. This makes the entire quest feel fake and contrived.
Sure, this is very true in modern MMO's. You just have standard spawn locations, and the mobs stand still all day. It feels bland, fake, and quite simply seems to be very dated. And this is something I am advocating against too. If you pass a ranger, or someone with an animal companion, says for example a wolf. Stealth is not going to save you. Or if a Mage is using something like truesight.
Now, you also mentioned you don't get mobbed, neither do I, in normal MMO's because everything is static, you can easily plan your route. And you learn aggro range. If I pull that mob, the aggro range is so and so, this means I won't aggro the mob/mobs that spawned there. Again, I am advocating a world that feels a bit more alive, if the other mob is looking your way, and see their buddy getting attacked, they should have some response, you can program it as a line of sight thing, like some stealth games, but this doesn't seem feasible to me. Although it would seem cool, and realistic. But you could have it do a shout, which is exactly what would happen if you'd catch someone infiltrating your lands. And thus, you get swarmed, which means you need other players around, or have patience as you try and plan a route through.
Of course, and that's proper rogue gameplay, that is also considering stealth is a permanent buff, which we don't know yet. I'll even go one further, mines tend to be dark, so stealth should be more effective than in say an open field, during daylight, without fog.
As for your idea of stealthing behind a party clearing the place, that's already what I before defined as group play, and you define as solo. So, as I said, using your definitions, you solo the place, you are, however, not alone. If you are, however, spotted and go into combat, the mobs should, once again call for help, this is a natural response, and thus you have the opportunity to get swarmed again, which is where the fighter I mentioned in my analogy comes in. He helps you defeat them, so you can, once again return to stealth and explore.
Now, before I continue, I would like to make it clear, that I don't want EVERY zone to be like this, as I said, if you go explore a forest, you can most likely explore to your hearts content, but if you explore an area that is known to be populated by semi intelligent humanoids, it would make sense to have to rely on other players, solo or not.
As I said, I don't think the scenario is that unlikely if you choose to explore a zone that is known to be dangerous. There are plenty of ways to sniff out stealth, and if you get spotted whilst in the middle, it stands to reason that the Ogres in my example, flock towards the sound of battle. So having other players around, to divert the attention away from you. Which might even allow you to stay in stealth (if it's a permanent buff) Would, in fact, make your exploring inherently easier. As they are distracted by battle. Or they have to fight on two fronts.
What I hope would happen is that we get in at least a few minutes of RP, sharing some of our past adventures.
I am with you on this, the encounter initiation RP sharing of adventures, etc. That's exactly the type of thing I am hoping for
As for adventuring together, I will go ahead and assume that falls under your definition of grouping. That choice will always be up to you, of course.
What I am saying, however, is that given how dangerous the area is, and how easy it might be to be spotted, even stealth, again, if we assume stealth is going to be a permanent buff rather than temporary. You may or may not choose to, indeed work with the fighter. If combat is going to come, might as well share the load, type of thing.
And, if you do get spotted, and nobody else is around, getting swarmed should be natural. Which is one of the reasons the area is hard to get through. You're in hostile territory after all.
And yes, if you somehow manage to get by on stealth without being detected, that's a reward in and of itself, by having mastered stealth to such a degree, you can infiltrate like that. But again, it should not be easy, and you'd need to be very aware of your surroundings.
I would also like to mention, that prior to this discussion, going stealth wasn't considered, stealth generally have an easier time. Alas, not all classes have stealth. If the enemy are elves, for example, you might find sneaking to be harder, because they get a bonus to detection, because of their incredible hearing (Just as an example)
If we choose to explore more deeply together, we may or may not be in a Group.
Yes, and perhaps, at some point you might not have a choice, as you may reach a much more densely populated area.
Sure, and if that is a possibility, go for it.
If you allow me to make one more analogy. If you have ever played DnD, you'll know that even with incredible sneak, you don't always succeed. Or, a mob might be able to pierce right through stealth as it were. At which point, going at it alone is very difficult and time consuming, and you'll instead be moved, naturally, because you don't necessarily want to deal with the headache, to join forces, be it with, or without a party. Player reliance. You have my back, I'll have yours. Which is something that I feel is critical, if you find yourself in such a dangerous location.
Again, none of this applies, if you explore a zone that's not as hazardous.
And then while his presence may not make my exploration any easier, it might make it more fun to have someone tagging along with me.
Personality clashes you won't really know until you're talking with the other person.
As for the whole solo/alone/group thing. Again, differences in definitions. So, with this point, I agree. It might be more fun when you group/party up. That doesn't have to make it easier. But what I was saying, was it does make it easier than being alone. Which is what I meant with solo.
The farther you go in your scenario, it just seems like you aren't very good at Soloing.
Ad hominem? I am not sure, I choose to believe it isn't. Just a misunderstanding of what I mean, which I will take the blame for, as English isn't my native tongue.
But... for whatever reason, I might choose to add the Fighter to my Friends List.
And nowhere did I say that, you keep putting words in my mouth. I am saying is, if you've gone through my scenario, together/solo i.e. not alone. You are much more likely to initiate a dialogue. Or be spoken to. Which may result in you adding the fighter to your friend's list. You might add him because he's a crafter, or makes cheap potions. Whatever. There are plenty of reasons to add someone. What I am saying is, if he was just a random guy killing things, you'd probably be far less likely to add him. Because neither of you really need eachother. You can just stealth through, and he'll slice through the mobs like a hot knife through butter. And what I am advocating is, neither of these latter scenarios are what you would want, not for an area that is supposed to be dangerous.
If you meet the same fighter, but in the forest, as he's killing bears or whatever. And you're just there to explore the beautiful forests that can be created in unreal 4. Interaction is less likely. The zone isn't dangerous enough to have to somewhat rely on others.
Maybe I add him simply because we had fun sharing the tales of our adventures with each other and decide to meet for lunch in game at some tavern and hang out.
Yes, and if you just see him in the forest, where there's no real danger, the chances of finding that out aren't actually as high. If you cater to the "alone" crowd, which again, I used the word solo for before. People don't need to interact, and often times. I, through no fault of my own, end up ignoring whispers for the longest time, because I don't have to pay attention, and don't notice the message.
As I said, I really want the devs to create a world, where, you can play solo, but have to rely on other players, to go to certain areas of the world. And they don't have to be places where you need eight people. But two, maybe three solo players in order to comfortably get through. And making it hard to do alone.
What you describe used to happen all the time - especially when the vast majority of the playerbase was hardcore time/hardcore challenge... and pretty much the only thing to do was combat - especially before crafting professions were implemented and house decorating and pets and tons of costumes were available.
Not just hardcore players, but the content was tuned in such a way, you really preferred there to be other people. Even if you were alone. Just so it would be far less of a pain in the ass. I'll give an example in WoW
Vanilla, despite many of its flaws, had a slow levelling system, and often times, it was rather difficult. Especially when encountering humanoids who run away, and get pulled in bunches. That game created the necessity of grouping, because of mob tagging. (If you were questing) Player A,B, and C are in a group, completing the quest. You, player D, just want to explore, and because they are pulling the mobs, you have an easier time stealthing around. These were frequent occurrences. Two, to three expansions later. They removed all this difficulty and made levelling, if you were questing a single player experience, you did things alone. The chances of running into someone else questing were really small. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it was really small. As a result, the making of new friends through that particular avenue was halted. I won't even mention the dungeon finder, and specifically the crossrealm one. But the game became far and far less social.
Now, for someone like me, and possibly you, if I understand your posts correctly. This isn't a big problem, I make a lot of friends through RP. That's why I stuck around for so long. But many of the friends I made, people with whom I shared intimate details of my life, and vice versa. Stopped playing. As the game is, by its nature a living, breathing thing. People come, people go. But the problem is, people going. They were friends, you went through hard times together, helped eachother out, and they left. Outside of RP servers (My first server was a normal PvE one) I don't know anyone outside of my guild, save for a crafter or two. In addition to that, the guilds have naturally shrunk. So the game, despite being a LOT bigger with all the content added. Feels empty. Unless I am on an RP server, which is focussing on the social. But it's player driven. The game systems themselves no longer require players to interact, it's up to the players, and the annoying truth is, outside of RP, most players don't interact with others. And I am advocating that AoC breaks this mold and builds the game, with the social ideas in mind. Which they seem to be doing, with the caravan system and nodes. But I would like to see it outside of these avenues too. As they are mostly PvP centric.
But there were always those of us who were casual challenge players more interested in exploring and following the story of the world than in killing everything in sight and seeking uber gear. Just more difficult to find each other back then.
I am one of these people. I read quest texts, because I like the lore. But back when it was a requirement if you had any hopes of finding out where to go, everyone had to read it, lest they did the quests before. Which, again, is a game design decision. No quest markers on the map. Exploration, it came naturally, as you were never a hundred percent sure where to go. Explorers are lore people are not easy to find, especially now.
And I think Ashes will change it too, but not only because of the way the nodes are designed, because the coming together of players, both solo and groups is based around PvP. Which, granted, is an excellent step. But they also need to make this step for PvE. At least for the in lore dangerous zones.
The first baby steps to making friends has nothing to do with combat.
I never said it was about combat, I said it was about strife, and I didn't say it was the only way, I said it was one way. As you say, having fun hanging out, though, not all players do this. I for one do, as do you, by the sounds of it, but never everyone. And you can play alone, and help your node level, this doesn't create friendships, playing together be it solo it in groups, that does. You need not join anyone in combat for friendship, this is true. But for the players for which this is true, they are usually the kind that RP's and take time to talk to players, because they want to.
In order to keep a game healthy, you want to keep the players that aren't as naturally inclined to do these things. And, as I iterate, one of the ways to do this, is through combat, and creating a reliance on other players.
How do I know this? When I started MMORPG's I was very young, I had no real interest in RP, heck, at the time I didn't even know what it was. I went to major cities to inspect the raiders and be envious of their gear. One of the few ways that I made friends, and many people with me, was because I needed other players to complete objectives I had set for myself.Exploring the wailing caverns (the cave not instance) for example. Or simply completing quests to level up, so I could get my next talent. I could do these things alone, but they were, at all times, easier to complete, and more fun to do with others. Which, sadly isn't the case. Almost every MMO I've played recently. I reach level 10/15 within two hours. And that's when I play alone. There's no real hardships for me to require other players. And other players don't require me. I try to group up sometimes, but as soon as they realise I read the quests and what not. They leave, it's too slow, everyone is in a rush. Back when I first started, the game didn't allow you to rush. It was slow paced, and difficult. This is why I played it for so long before I discovered RP. Friends I made that way.
I can make friends with people in town just by being known as the person that helps the town grow by harvesting mushrooms. All kinds of ways to help other players without combat being involved - or joining a party.
If you harvest them alone, chances are people don't know it's you, unless there is some leaderboard type thing, that allows people to see a list of villagers that helped grow the node to what it is today. I am not too sure they'll realise otherwise.
And again, you're putting words in my mouth, by suggesting that somehow I think that combat is the only way to make friends.I didn't say it was. I am merely saying that it, much like how they'll decide levelling, the node, professions work. It's a tool. And, as past experience for me has shown, it's an important tool. Just like being helpful is. Fun fact. The first person I ever interacted with in WoW. I even remember the setting. Durotar, the humans in the ruined castle. Tiragarde keep. I was still new to the game, and kept dying on my Mage. As I kept running out of mana. I asked for help. And this Hunter came. Ocemaster, Phöenix guild Stormrage-EU. He helped me clear the quest, I asked him plenty of things, we became friends, he was Dutch too, I was Dutch, so we had an easy time communicating, I even joined the guild later. We are still friends, even though we haven't played WoW together since ICC 25. So yea, general friendliness is another way, of course.
< Um. Stealthing through mines doesn't mean there is no danger, there are no pickles and nothing is life threatening. I frequently stealth through areas where I can be one-shotted. Once that happens too often, I head back to a less dangerous area.
Exactemundo. That's my point, as a result you can't, without relying on other players, explore that dangerous area. As I said, stealth isn't always the answer.
When I do the carebear challenge and level without killing any form of animal life, that is very dangerous and life threatening and -of course- I'm not going to be Grouping with players who kill stuff.
You can choose to do that, and again, the grouping issue, I am just saying, if you want to level up killing evil shit, like Orcs and Ogres, or Undead, whatever. You may have to rely on others. You can possibly do it "alone" but it'll be difficult. Which, again is exactly what I've been saying, we've just been using different terminology.
That is a very challenging way to play - and frequently life threatening.
It's also player made, like RP. Which is fine, but it's not that big a part of the player base that does it. And as I said before, they need to make the game challenging, so people rely on eachother. Because, frankly, that's one of the few ways, some parts of the playerbase get to make these social connections outside their guilds, and will ultimately translate into a healthier pool of players, which, I hope we can agree, is better for both us as players, and IS as a company.
Doesn't mean I'm never interacting with other players. Sometimes I'm interacting with masses of other players. I'm just not Grouping with them for combat.
Again, definition differences, I won't keep beating this dead horse.
If you like to Group, Ashes should have plenty of content for you. We agree.
I am happy we can agree on that
But the devs should not do that by making Solo content more difficult and tedious.
I never said this. Perhaps I did before we were on the same page in terms of definitions. Alas. Replace solo with alone. And even then I said, it should not be possibly to soley level "alone". If I can level all the way to the maximum, alone, without the reliance on other players, that's the path most players will take. The path of least resistance. This is in human nature.
Rather, they should accomplish that by making content that is challenging even for 8 person parties to complete. And content that is challenging for raids to complete.
I feel we are slowly starting to get on the same page. Though I would prefer various group sizes. Some dangerous places requiring parties of eight. Some, a few will do. But that's not too important.
I've been saying all along, I there should be places that are so dangerous, that going out alone, exploring is going to end up killing you, or at the very least have you play the game of your life and end up surviving, just barely, which is a reward in and of itself.
But, there should also be content designed for Solo players to complete alone - easy, average and difficult.
I agree, though terms seem to get confused. So let's just call it alone. That content should definitely exist, however, I feel, and I strongly feel, it'll end up being detrimental if you can get to max level, all alone. Without ever having to rely on anyone else. This is what happens with WoW. And if you don't RP, and start fresh, on a new account, no friends. You'll find it very difficult to stay interested for long.
Again, we agree.
Ashes will have a wide variety of ways to encourage players to interact with each other and fight alongside each other and also to form parties and raids.
If there's a somewhat linear path from level 1 to level max. That allows you to do only "alone" content. I strongly, very strongly disagree. All avenues of gameplay, should at some point encourage players to work together. If you want to go into the forest alone to harvest mushrooms, go for it. If you want to go into Orc territory to harvest a different type of mushroom. No. You can do it solo. But you'd rely on other players having to keep the Orcs busy.
Alone content is harvesting, doing simple quests. Gather venison from the deer in the forest. Of course you can do stuff like that alone. It makes sense for you to do that alone. You can choose to go into the forest and gather mushrooms with someone. Just to have someone to talk to and what not. But never should that be a requirement. But "alone content" to defeat an encampment of savage Orcs, that should not exist.
Having a quest that asks you to slay Orcish scouts that may be lurking, go at it alone, have fun. You should be able to take them out 1 v 1 or even 2 v 1. No problem.
But if the same guy, as a sort of follow up, asks you to slay the leader of a nearby camp. No, you should not be able to do it alone, unless you can get in unseen, and poison his drink, or something along those lines.
I forgot who it was, but someone mentioned the quest chains in WoW. That's exactly it. You start out by doing something rather easy, but the quest gets harder the further you get in. From having to kill solitary animals, you are then asked to go to a camp of Elves and gather Elf ears. You can wait and wait, until you can get one Elf alone, slay it, and wait. Which makes it slow, and tedious to do alone. Or you can decide to work in tandem with the Warrior and his Mage friend and slay the Elves that way.
I don't agree that the Fighter had less impact if he didn't help me fight mobs.
Au contraire, my friend. If the fighter just passed by and did nothing to interact with you, or help you in a precarious situation. The impact he's had on you is far, far less than when he helps you. And that has nothing to do with your playstyle. No matter your playstyle, if someone passes by, it's not memorable. If you walk through a supermarket. You pass by a lot of people, none of which will really stick in your memory. Unless they have like unusual features. Like that guy/girl is really attractive. Or whatever. No, if a random, standard person passes you by. That person has had ZERO impact on you. If that same person decides to help you. "Mate, that cheese you're buying, it was in the paper this morning, the hygiëne in that factory is abysmal, I'd recommend this cheese instead, similar taste and price." You'll remember that person.
Say you go out, and you find yourself being the target of random violence. These two lads suckerpunch you, and start kicking you. Many people would just pass by, and walk faster, so they won't become the target of the violence. You won't remember those people for long. But there comes this one person, who drags them off you, and fends them off, helps you in a taxi, or whatever. You'll remember that person.
In short playstyle has little to do with it.
I don't see any reason why I would forget he is a Fighter.
This was merely an example of the fact that despite you having seen him, you don't really notice him. As he doesn't interfere with you, interact, or help, or anything. You are busy doing your thing, trying not to die. Your brain won't register it. It might, but mostly it won't. It was merely an attempt to illustrate my point.
I suppose it would depend on what gear the Fighter used.
With dual classes, I'll assume identifying a class by gear isn't always possible. He might be a Mage wearing leather as his second class is rogue. Again, it was merely a hypothetical point
Obviously, that means you interacted, and thus he'll be memorable, he didn't just pass by. Although, let's be realistic for a second. If neither of you really have a reason to help one another, because it's easy enough to do alone. What are the chances of meeting someone who'd randomly tell you about his past adventures. You would often times be lucky if you get a "ty" or "thanks" if you buff them.
And, hopefully I would remember he is a Fighter because I later visited his freehold and saw Fighter memorabilia among the decorations.
Again, you interacted with him, which, when in the middle of doing your own thing, if player dependency would not be a thing. Would sadly, not be as common. Hence why I advocate systems that encourage it. And what I have been typing, is one of many ways to do that. I am not saying do this and nothing else. I'm saying, use all the tools at your disposal.
What happens when leveling Solo becomes hard and tedious?
Definitions again, change solo to alone. You'll gravitate towards other players, as they'll gravitate towards you.
But, that shouldn't really be an issue in Ashes due to sieges and caravans.
Which, again is PvP centric, and an amazing idea to encourage natural world PvP.
I will likely escort caravans to protect goods I want shipped to other places and to help ensure that my town/city has the goods it needs to level and/or survive sieges.
And that's good. However, there are a great many players who have very little interest in PvP, and might, MIGHT just PvP a little when their city is under siege. But these things are very rare. As it takes months to set up. And if you've ever done massive scale world PvP you'll know it's an absolute clusterf*ck.
With that in mind, the knowledge that not everyone will be doing or enjoying PvP. You need systems that encourage you to interact with other players in the PvE world too.
I myself for example, have no interest, at all, in defending a caravan.
No, but these are massive projects, as I said, that will take a long time to set up. And once it starts, it's complete chaos, it naturally drives you to fight alongside players. But, again, only in a PvP format. PvE needs similar things.
There will likely be other players defending the same caravan you are.
One of the ways, it's ridiculous and silly to limit it to that. It's just one of the many ways. RP being another. And the PvE as I've been talking about yet another.
PS: This took a whole lot longer to write than I thought. I won't be doing this again. Because after this, now that the definitions are settled and we still disagree, we are not going to see eye to eye, and the conversation will only start to circle.
I'm going to try to TL:DR this post.
If I'm adventuring Solo in an Ogre lair because I am a pacifist, non-combatant miner who abhors killing animal life and am pursuing the carebear challenge of reaching max character level with 0 kills, I am not going to join a party or raid with other players who are killing stuff.
A Fighter who appears while I'm being attacked by Ogres and kills them is not really helping me. And, from an RP perspective is violating my character's principles.
So, if the Fighter is going to move through the mine killing Ogres, I would interact with him and strive to convince him to be a carebear, but I wouldn't Group with him.
That is the fun of playing an MMORPG rather than playing a single-player game.
The interactions and conversations we have with other players.
In order to encourage players to Group, you don't make mining more difficult and tedious to Solo. Rather, you provide bonuses that make mining more advantageous while in a party - extra harvest and extra xp, etc.
That way, I'd be more likely to create/join a party with the Fighter if he agrees to help me mine without killing any Ogres.
Although, most likely, I would only agree to join a party with other players I know are also pursuing the carebear challenge.
We start building friendships as we work together to level a node from one Stage to the next. You make it seem like friendships only begin with combat.
Caravans don't really take a long time to set up.
Also caravans are PvX; not PvP.
Bonuses are a nice idea, but usually don't work. I don't know of any examples where it does.
You really need to write shorter posts if you want people to actually read em. xD
I expect Ashes to include lore regarding how/why people return from death.
What really never works is Soloers choosing to Group because the devs have made Soloing tedious.
Rather, you reward them for joining groups.
- Solo Player
Regardless of what mmorpg means, the way Ashes is being developed there better be content for solo players. This whole world will grow and evolve through player interaction at every level. You want the gamers who tend more to solo to be playing Ashes just as much as those who only group. If not the overall world development will suffer. The stories we will get to create will suffer.
This shouldn't even be a topic, us vs. them, group vs solo, casual vs harcore. If you want Ashes to be successful, like I assume we all do or else why are we even here chatting, you want as many players playing this game, regardless of their preferred style. There are multiple ways Ashes is being developed. from nodes to crafting to trade, that will require the worlds to have high server pops in order to function as intended.
That being said I don't think everything should take a group. Sometimes you just want to play for a half hour. In those situations I usually craft or gather or go do some quests. Admittedly I do play solo sometimes because I just feel anti-social but I don't expect to be able to run dungeons or raids.
Solo players, for the most, part don't want to be able to clear group content their level.
They don't want to be gated from exploring those areas. They should be able to stealth through the dungeon if they have the skills for it. Doesn't mean they should be able kill a boss designed for an 8-person group.
But, again, there's tons of stuff to do with other players that doesn't include combat.
Instanced Solo content would ensure that it remains Solo content, rather than Groups slicing through that content like it's a piece of cake.
I'm not necessarily advocating instanced Solo content, but I would love to have Solo pets and costumes that show other players that I defeated a challenging Solo boss.
Great for all kinds of social gatherings.
They have jobs and families that mean they are now casual time/hardcore challenge players."
It's not that the players themselves aged and evolved, it's the the proportion of hardcore time hardcore challenge to total of players in MMO has changed.
Back in UO and EQ, with less than 1 million subs most people who participated were hardcore. But when MMOs attracted more people, they became a minority. Their amounts didn't change, and the ones that played 15 years ago have been replaced with new hardcores, so there is nothing there - just a smaller proportion of players.
Nowadays, you could estimate people who partcipate in raids while they're current at about 1-3% of the playerbase. It used to be way higher in the old MMOs, because it was the only content. If endgame raids and such were the only content nowadays, the others would probably eventually quit from being bored.
I left FF14 largely because devs trivialized crafting in order to not let people get raid-caliber gear without running raid. It also didn't help that they had you get tons of stacks of 99 items to make mats to make equipment, and the inventory wasn't too friendly to that (lack of inventory, or too many raw materials to make sub materials). I didn't want to pug, guild was too small to reliably raid, and I was more interested in the crafting. The last bit that got me away might have been RNG within craft. You had to design rotations based on chance of procs happening at some specific points...it became very complex maths (and if you failed, you lost the very valuable mats, hello performance anxiety)...to make placeholder gear only world-first guilds even use (because its quickly surpassed by token and raid gear).
I figure AoC hit on all the right points there. Crafting not trivialized, no RNG/complex proc maths involved in the actual craft. And I won't feel I have to participate in raid or miss out on good gear. If I can gather, craft, explore solo and occasionally party for certain things, I'll be happy. I'm a hardcore time and hardcore challenge person, but not in the typical 'raid' way. I'll probably be the best in some very specific craft on the server I'm on. I'm an aspie, so obsession is my thing, but I largely prefer solo...in an evolving game that happens to have other players.
Hardcore time/hardcore challenge players aging into casual time/hardcore challenge players is a significant factor in the change in proportion.
Not the only factor.
As home PCs and internet access became more prevalent, more casuals joined the player-base.
100% of the playerbase being hardcore/hardcore has dwindled down closer to 30%.
Hardcore/hardcore players would stick around for endgame camping and raiding.
Casuals would typically quit before endgame. Or quit shortly after reaching endgame.
These days casual challenge folk will stick around after endgame for crafting and house decorating - maybe for pets.
We are pretty much saying the same thing with minor, nit-picky differences.
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Are there times when you do socialize with other players?
What aspects of MMOs do you enjoy that you can't get from a single-player game?
For instance, I like to see what players are wearing and how they have decorated their homes.
As the 20-something aged, they were replaced with new 20-something players later. The amount of hardcore/hardcore is probably higher, the % of the total is much lower. So the aging didn't change much except maybe raise the average player age (I guess 50 years old didn't play MMORPGs as much in 1997).
"Hardcore/hardcore players would stick around for endgame camping and raiding."
I wouldn't. I had a friend playing FF11, telling me enthusiastically about the endgame at lv 75, camping bosses that respawn 3 days later and can only be killed by one alliance (ie its not one boss per alliance, its 1 gets it, others get nothing)...after 2+ hours of constant non-stop combat. I was disgusted. Wasting hours for maybe a chance at maybe the chance to fight a boss for 2 hours for maybe a drop I can use? I'll likely win the lottery first. Also hours doing nothing before it spawns sounds positively boring, like watching grass grow. Fishing is a lot more fun, at least you see progress.
And I was disgusted more that it was apparently the ONLY endgame. World bosses as only thing to do... Then I heard people had to carry their entire inventory worth of swaps and macro-swap multiple times per fight. I didn't even want to try it again (I had played in 2003). It felt positively horrible, a chore, sucked all the fun out. And that's something considering FF11 is the game that made me wary and allergic to PUGs (due to being forced to party to level, and how toxic it was even if it was just the wait to have 6-man group and go back to 6 once someone left, with the party inevitably disbanding during the wait cause someone else had to go).
I'm a hardcore challenge person, but camping world bosses is not my idea of fun. Gimme engaging crafts that make relevant gear, not just augment raid gear. I also want to explore, find rare materials that are rare because hard to find rather than raid boss drop. I want to tame stuff, or breed stuff, experiment. I'll note my experiments and build an encyclopedia worth of knowledge, which I'll mostly keep to myself. I might share with guildmates who seem trustworthy enough, but don't intend to make the info public domain. Casuals wouldn't even last long enough to make experiments that are off the beaten path, let alone know it all.
"Are there times when you do socialize with other players?"
Guildmates, friends I also know in real life. And people I met in the game that left a positive impact on me (it happens, it even happened in FF11, and not with people I partied with - I had befriended a high lv crafter who used honey to make beewax, and I was farming honey on my Thief).
"What aspects of MMOs do you enjoy that you can't get from a single-player game?"
It's not complete at any point, it always gets patched. New content all the time. Never truly the max level and very best gear for very long. Your character(s) can evolve over time. And the playstyle of classes, too.
"For instance, I like to see what players are wearing and how they have decorated their homes. "
I mostly meet people while I craft or gather. It's mostly them bumping into me (if I'm crafting I'm usually on the ground in town). I've been asked to craft for others, without even trying to advertise myself. Other moments didn't have people talking much, and dungeon people were the least likely to care about me, regardless of how good or bad I did my job. If there was talk it was about the boss mechanics and not-dying to it. Or cursing the tank who can't get aggro at all.
Because that is what caused the devs to start accommodating casuals more and more in their game design.
So the aging changed things significantly.
I consider crafting to be casual challenge.
Exploring is also casual challenge.
So, I would flag you as hardcore time/casual challenge.
You didn't mention it under things you enjoy in MMORPGs that you can't do in a single player game, but you covered in the section directly above it...
Even though you Solo quite a bit, you still socialize in-game with your guildmates, friends from real life and friends you met while playing.
I was hoping that was the case.
Thanks for sharing your answers!
Yes, in an mmorpg we will all have to rely on other players to get things done.
But everyone's goals will be different. How you want to advance in Ashes and the speed at which you want to advance will be different than me. And my preference different from others. It is not correct to assume everyone playing Ashes will want to have the same experience or have the same goals.
Personally I could care less about how quickly I progress because being fast is not my preference. I could also care less about being on the front lines of a siege or the first to complete a difficult raid.
I plan on exploring and largely having my own free hold where I raise a farm and tend to my crops and animals. To survive, I will have to interact with players to sell my goods in order to keep moving along. That neither takes a group nor a speed run to be done. Yet I will still be providing important resources for the community as a whole.
My points are players who spend most of their time solo, still contribute to the world and are still a vital part of the mmorpg. And we should not assume we share the same goals as everyone else.
What I said, in short was.
The world needs to be vibrant, it needs to make sense. You can solo the world, if you so desire. That is, if solo means not in a group, and not without other players.
There also needs to be content for when you're alone. Crafting would fall under this for example. Or missions in areas quite immediate to your node.
The further you venture out, the potentially more dangerous areas become. And when you enter a "high risk" area. And you go at it ALONE. You should have trouble. There are other options.
You can go at it alone in plenty of other places.
@Fantmx example of solo play, it would make sense within the game world. And there is absolutely no issue of him doing it solo.
If he were to have said, I'm going to this high risk area, where endless patrols have vanished, never reporting in. Trained soldiers of your nodes army/militia. Should you be realistically expecting to go at that alone? Is it possible? With sufficient time and skill, probably.
In those high risk areas:
There should be some challenges that people can Solo, ranging from easy to difficult to impossible.
There should be some challenges that require an 8-person party, ranging from easy to difficult to impossible.
There should be some challenges that require a 40-person raid, ranging from easy to difficult to (potentially) impossible.
I should be able to go into the high risk area with endless patrols alone. Yes.
Should I be able to complete my quests alone? Depends on what the quests are.
Should I be able to kill everything I encounter? Probably not. Especially if the area contains a boss designed for an 8-person party or a 40-person raid.
Good idea is subjective.
All depends on the specific goals of the person adventuring in the high risk area alone.
You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.