Why branding weapons won't work. Maybe.

ArchivedUser

So in one of the Q&A sessions someone wanted to brand the weapons they make with their name so they could become the most famous blacksmith in the land and have people seek him/her out. One of the dev said yes, you'll be able to do that.

But I don't think that will work because of the internet. 
Let's say you discover the recipe for an ice axe that freezes people so you brand it Fred's Ice Axe. People want that and seek out Fred's Blacksmith Shop... for like one day, until someone else discovers the recipe and posts it online, then there are thousands of people selling ice axes. Molly's Ice Axe, Kevin's Ice Axe, etc.. same recipe, same axe. 

Or will it?
So now let's say you discover a super secret recipe that's hard to create out of rare parts and this axe can cut down a tree in one blow. You name it Fred's Tree Chopper Axe. Someone sees it and tries to make one but they can't. The recipe is too hard to figure out. Fred becomes famous throughout the land. Everyone on the internet is trying to make this axe but they fail. 

I think the only way branding will work is if the recipes are so hard no one can figure them out. Like, 128k ingredients or something. What do you think?

ArchivedUser

personally I would love to see recipes be found and created out of thin air by the player.  The ones that are created out of thin air by mixing these regrants are rng, like the first few times it doesnt work even though someone else said it did, then the fourth time it works.  so you can never tell if its accurate or worth it.

ArchivedUser

Branding can work. If the recipes and the ingredients are rare and difficult to obtain or the results themselves rare then seeing what crafter and guild pulled that off does attract business.

In the early days of Lord of the Rings Online there were rare one shot recipes with rare boss bits as the key ingredient. Additionally there was a critical success result to that. People looked for those crafters who had made them because they had demonstrated their ability.

There's no guarantee that branding will create that market and environment, but it is possible.

ArchivedUser

That would a great idea but it depends on what the crafting system is going to be like

ArchivedUser

They gave an example that's a little different, you will see it in the text of your item as:

Ice Axe
crafted by Potoo

Either way, what does it matter? You need to actively promote it anyway to "become famous" or get some exclusive equiptment rights for famous groups of raiders or pvpers. Or do you think you will see the name glaring at you at any given point? You will probably have to open up some "inspect window".
On top of that, it is probably not just the recip itself that you want to have but the benefits a true mastercrafter of axes gives through his axe creations and so on.
There is a lot more involved as just "hey I found a recipe".
Did you think about securing rare materials? Maybe he is the only one who has that green yellowish mithril that people really want for it's cool glow right now because of his connections to gatherers that found the veine and depleted it.
Maybe he is the only one who specialized in a certain field that was neglected.
Maybe he just sits in a good accessible spot with his shop in this huge world.

ArchivedUser

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe "recipe's" will be items unto themselves.  You will have to have attained a recipe, to be able to craft said item (food, armor, weapon, etc.).

Knowing what the crafted item consists of, and having the prerequisite recipe to be able to craft said item (along with ingredients, of course), are going to be two different things.  Or, at least, that's how I understand it.  

The more rare the recipe, the more rare the craft.

ArchivedUser

That would be amazing if it was like that! Where one person finds it then only they know the recipie, such as each recipe is generates just once(if they have to be found) and they're all slightly different, so maybe 10 ice axes, but one has alittle more damage, the other has a little more speed etc 
So yes same item, but different, thus branding can be a thing "Fred always makes swift weapons, whereas Bell always makes poison" or something like that...yes I know the two ideas clash, cause what if Fred finds speed once then poison the next, but shush

Battleaxe souffle here we come!

ArchivedUser

I'm pretty sure the crafting is going to be rather in depth right? If so I can see people flocking to those who understand the intricacies the most because they'll have more unique or simply better gear. I'm not sure exactly how the they want to do stats for crafting and such but it just makes sense that branding is valuable if the world works like that.
I hope it works out well I too plan on becoming at least semi-famous as a blacksmith.

ArchivedUser

I don't know if it still works this way, but I believe back in the early days of Rift gear was given an indicator of who made it. I say this because I remember my husband running around with a lot of gear created by Isende; that just made him so many types of happy.

It's good to be married to someone who's so easily pleased ...

:-D

ArchivedUser

ArkadyRandom said:

In the early days of Lord of the Rings Online there were rare one shot recipes with rare boss bits as the key ingredient. Additionally there was a critical success result to that. People looked for those crafters who had made them because they had demonstrated their ability.

There's no guarantee that branding will create that market and environment, but it is possible.

Yeah, spent many a late night in Helegrod for this purpose but it was a good way to go about it. I think crafting is something that has progressed significantly in MMOs since then and branding could work if it was well thought out.

ArchivedUser

Also, even if recipes were learned through a combination of experimentation, and leveling, that doesn't mean there will necessarily be "10,000 Frost Axes".  

The way to discovery of said recipe could be hard won, and whoever discovers it, would want to keep it a closely guarded secret, otherwise, the craftsman would only be undercutting him/herself.  

That's also not taking into account the rarity of the ingredients needed.  More exotic items require exotic ingredients, not easily obtainable.  

ArchivedUser

Zlade said:

The ones that are created out of thin air by mixing these regrants are rng, like the first few times it doesnt work even though someone else said it did, then the fourth time it works.  so you can never tell if its accurate or worth it.

Ohh, that's sneaky!

ArkadyRandom said:

In the early days of Lord of the Rings Online there were rare one shot recipes with rare boss bits as the key ingredient. 

Rare boss bits! I like that!

Grisu said:

 Or do you think you will see the name glaring at you at any given point? You will probably have to open up some "inspect window".

When you go to the shop you'll probably have the option to buy new stuff or sell your old stuff. The name will be there and people will say, "Oh! Fred's Tree Chopper!" 

ArchivedUser

It is my most sincere hope that recipes won't be world drops, but rather something you work toward, experiment with, and learn through trial and error (that RNG thing) until you've learned it. At the point it's learned, it's my hope RNG goes outta the mix and you are able to make it.

IMO, the mats really need to be highest-level for the highest-level items; I mean, why else try to work your way to Artisan level of anything, if not to be able to make the best of what can be made? That's always been my love in games, and I'm willing to do the work -- weeks worth, even! -- to be able to reach that Artisan level. I'd like my name on what I create!

ArchivedUser

freespiryt said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe "recipe's" will be items unto themselves.  You will have to have attained a recipe, to be able to craft said item (food, armor, weapon, etc.).

Knowing what the crafted item consists of, and having the prerequisite recipe to be able to craft said item (along with ingredients, of course), are going to be two different things.  Or, at least, that's how I understand it.  

The more rare the recipe, the more rare the craft.

  Ohh!! I just had a bunch of ideas from this.

So you do a quest to get the ice axe recipe then the axe has certain properties like,
Killing Monsters 5+BM
Chopping Wood 4+BW
Freezing Stuff 7+BT

And B is the blacksmith's stats, like how many monsters the blacksmith has killed is BM, so if Fred has killed more monsters than Molly his axe would have higher hit stats on monsters. BW is how much wood the blacksmith has chopped and BT is how much time they've spent in Winter. If Molly spent a lot of time in winterlands her axe would be able to freeze stronger monsters. If Kevin chops a lot of wood his ice axe would be better for chopping wood. 

ArchivedUser

Isende said:

It is my most sincere hope that recipes won't be world drops, but rather something you work toward, experiment with, and learn through trial and error (that RNG thing) until you've learned it. At the point it's learned, it's my hope RNG goes outta the mix and you are able to make it.

IMO, the mats really need to be highest-level for the highest-level items; I mean, why else try to work your way to Artisan level of anything, if not to be able to make the best of what can be made? That's always been my love in games, and I'm willing to do the work -- weeks worth, even! -- to be able to reach that Artisan level. I'd like my name on what I create!

I'm thinking it may be a combination of the two, @Isende.  So much information, it's hard to accurately remember everything.  

ArchivedUser

What if your build was just as important to the outcome as the recipe ?

ie your build was part of the recipe.

I am thinking much like weapins and armour will be suited to classes or builds.
I am also thinking the classes or builds will produce tuned armour and weapons.

What if crafting location was also a factor (nature) ?
What if time of day was also a factor (nurture) ?

ArchivedUser

I like the idea of rare and exclusive recipes, I think there is supposed to be a "scribe" skill or some such, and the recipes only drop once per server and are spent upon learning it.  This would require a scribe of sufficient level to scribe a copy, which may or may not come out as an exact duplicate, and copies can not be copied, only the original, with a chance of using the original up upon scribing. (yes possibility of losing the original while attempting to make a copy, which might also fail, thus requiring waiting upon a possible ultra rare second drop of the item).  Maybe the recipe drop rarity is based on the tier of the recipe, not just a once thing...

This would enable selling of those recipes.  I also like the above mentioned idea of unique items based off the crafter's skill levels and experience.

All speculation

ArchivedUser

well this reminds me of the mystic forge recipes from GW2
there were many recipes in game, people didn't know for a long time, but once someone figured it out it was shared on the wiki.

But the difference here is, what ever you do in GW2's Mystic Forge is pretty much soulbound (not counting rng recipes where you just need luck)
Now for Ashes, there could be a ton of hard to create recipes, not because they need 128k materials, but they need the right materials

lets go for the ice axe example
to craft it you may need some very specific/rare items, items people usually won't waste on trying to figure out a new recipe since they are so valuable for other things or just wouldn't think of work together

Let's say
Ice Golem Core - rare item drop from ice golem used for Ice resistance Armor
Mithril Axe - a good quaility axe from a crafter
Frostbreath enchanted wood - a high quality refined material usually used to create magic staffs and wands

combine these as a crafter and you get the Ice Axe. Now it's up to the player to keep quiet or spill it out.

Or we get dataminers who ruin the fun of discovery for everyone, since we won't get mods who just dig up the date from the client.

ArchivedUser

You could patent recipes, and get royalties from the other crafters. Also, I believe other factors like crafter level, specialisation will also affect the quality of goods. you could raise your crafting to god-like levels, everyone will take your Ice axes only

ArchivedUser

Irobot said:

You could patent recipes, and get royalties from the other crafters. Also, I believe other factors like crafter level, specialisation will also affect the quality of goods. you could raise your crafting to god-like levels, everyone will take your Ice axes only

That is a great idea that way you would have to go that specific blacksmith to get a certain weapon that way the legend of that player would grow and in the same way creating new lore of a new master blacksmith

ArchivedUser

Guys remember the more customizability the harder it is to make, I for one would love some amazing crafting system (look at the old threads I've been in ). But it always come to a point where the more you add the harder it gets to make it and make it right.

That being said, heres my take: They already confirmed its gonna be recipe based, so lets say its WoW style. That would make the limiting factor "who has the recipe", and then they just have to keep it a secret where its from Or it might be a unique recipe (they mentioned that this might be a thing?).

I'd personally much rather have a more ESO-esk take but with less known factors, but I think it would be hard to make.

ArchivedUser

nagash said:

Irobot said:

You could patent recipes, and get royalties from the other crafters. Also, I believe other factors like crafter level, specialisation will also affect the quality of goods. you could raise your crafting to god-like levels, everyone will take your Ice axes only

That is a great idea that way you would have to go that specific blacksmith to get a certain weapon that way the legend of that player would grow and in the same way creating new lore of a new master blacksmith

Would be cool, but also a hellish nightmare to maintain (at least the patent part). Honestly it could become way to complicated quite quickly. I'd rather add in some exploration aspect like you have to go to the snowy mountain top to make an ice axe or something.

ArchivedUser

Julemanden said:

nagash said:

Irobot said:

You could patent recipes, and get royalties from the other crafters. Also, I believe other factors like crafter level, specialisation will also affect the quality of goods. you could raise your crafting to god-like levels, everyone will take your Ice axes only

That is a great idea that way you would have to go that specific blacksmith to get a certain weapon that way the legend of that player would grow and in the same way creating new lore of a new master blacksmith

Would be cool, but also a hellish nightmare to maintain (at least the patent part). Honestly it could become way to complicated quite quickly. I'd rather add in some exploration aspect like you have to go to the snowy mountain top to make an ice axe or something.

I think I'm letting my imagination go too far but this is what I love about this game, it the possibility that player can change the world and that has a lasting effect

ArchivedUser

From my understanding there will be tiers in terms of how good at crafting a certain thing (wands vs. weapons vs. armor etc.) so some people could make things with better stats because they've put more effort into learning that particular craft regardless of if everyone knows how to make an item or not.

As far as branding goes I think it would be easiest to put a mechanic into the crafting system where its crafting history is marked.

So if Fred would make this axe and there was a mechanic to look at other people's equipment they could see that the really nice axe was made by Fred. Or they could just ask whoever was using it. Also the brand part of it would also reflect on the person who made it. So let's say that Fred and Molly can both make axes of equal quality whoever has the lower price or, potentially due to lack of fast travel, better location would be the more popular brand.

ArchivedUser

The obvious reason that branding might have been mentioned, if that weapon stats are added dependent upon the amount of time the player has spent in game crafting, or the number of that type of weapon they've made. 
In the real world if Fred's made 1000 axes and 1 knife whereas Molly's done the reverse, I know who I'd trust more to buy a quality axe from

ArchivedUser

The possible implications of immersion such as this are staggering. I support this because it would lend server fane and renown to not only combatants but the people supplying those fighters with legendary gear. Imagine being the crafter who forged a sword with shards that could only be found on an undisclosed section of the map, found at the bottom of the lake that only thaws for one season out of the year...

ArchivedUser

You have to have the recipe and the ability/skill.
Also, location, location, location.

Crafting has skill trees, too. There will be different types of Blacksmiths - they won;t all be pursing the same progression paths that are subsets of Blacksmith. So, you can't just go to any Blacksmith to get the items you want. You'll want to know who you can rely on. And the branding helps with that.

In the vid where the devs went on the quest to hunt Forest Guardians, they said that we wouldn't have to turn in the meat and complete the quest. Instead we could take the meat to our freehold and experiment with it to see what we can make. 
So, it may be that all Crafters have the potential to discover a rare recipe through experimentation... where they are the only one on the server with that recipe.
Also, there should be rare  legendary and epic recipe drops for all Artisans.

Not sure what you do to ensure you're a famous gatherer or processor, though.

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

What if your build was just as important to the outcome as the recipe ?

ie your build was part of the recipe.

I am thinking much like weapins and armour will be suited to classes or builds.
I am also thinking the classes or builds will produce tuned armour and weapons.

What if crafting location was also a factor (nature) ?
What if time of day was also a factor (nurture) ?

I get where you're coming from, but not sure how "realistic" or "immersive" that would be. I mean, a blacksmith didn't have to wear a sword strapped to his waist in order to make one. He didn't necessarily have to know how to drive a wagon to make a wheel. Perhaps some crafting gear along the lines of old augments you could get in WoW, for instance, that gave a + to a crafting ability, which you had to learn to make. But that's about as far as I'd want to see it go.

ArchivedUser

Isende said:

I don't know if it still works this way, but I believe back in the early days of Rift gear was given an indicator of who made it. I say this because I remember my husband running around with a lot of gear created by Isende; that just made him so many types of happy.

It's good to be married to someone who's so easily pleased ...

:-D

Indeed. 

ArchivedUser

Isende said:

Rune_Relic said:

What if your build was just as important to the outcome as the recipe ?

ie your build was part of the recipe.

I am thinking much like weapins and armour will be suited to classes or builds.
I am also thinking the classes or builds will produce tuned armour and weapons.

What if crafting location was also a factor (nature) ?
What if time of day was also a factor (nurture) ?

I get where you're coming from, but not sure how "realistic" or "immersive" that would be. I mean, a blacksmith didn't have to wear a sword strapped to his waist in order to make one. He didn't necessarily have to know how to drive a wagon to make a wheel. Perhaps some crafting gear along the lines of old augments you could get in WoW, for instance, that gave a + to a crafting ability, which you had to learn to make. But that's about as far as I'd want to see it go.

What I am saying is, you may not have the specific craft tree necessary to craft the recipe in your possession.

On the recipe rarity side. You can do the same as a closed system on the material side.

Only so many of any specific recipe can exist on the server at any time. It would require the ability to lose or transfer recipes in some way. Perhaps a decay system like armour/weapons.

people write stuff down because they would forget otherwise right ?

I would also still expect the trial and error 'grind' option to be available too though.

ArchivedUser

make crafting anything a skill tree,
craft weapons <general skill gives you basic stuff>
specialization blade weapons <better swords and such>
specialization longsword <better longswords>
apprentice through mastery longsword <better than specialization working toward best longswords>

then make the recipes require some common sense ingredients and completely randomize anywhere from 1 to 20 other ingredients out of the thousands of items in the game randomly for each and every player to make each item. then Fred has a real chance of having a mostly unique recipe for "Fred's Longsword of Frozen Death" although i'd throw in a few more levels on the skill tree and up the other ingredients a bunch too for truly epic crafted items