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Fast Travel & Mounts

A game mechanic that has ruined not only most open world games but MMORPGs in general is click-map-fast-travel, (ex. Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online) developers should NEVER give the option to open your map and click a location and suddenly teleport there no matter what the cost of gold or whatever resource it requires, make players run to a boat, carriage, or griffin, or use a taxi mount at the very least (ex. World of Warcraft, Everquest, Final Fantasy XI & XIV) or ask another player for a teleport for instant travel which also helps with player interaction, click-map-fast-travel not only ruins the shrinks the size of the world but prevents people from coming in contact with other players for help or direction in the world like in woodsy trails or vast deserts, it will make the world seem a lot less active and empty with map fast travel. I also feel that every open world game must have mounts but using them should come with some sort of drawback for example you will be required to feed and take care of your mounts health and stats if you want to ride it, if you get attacked while on a mount the mount should throw you off onto your back and run off for a short time for your enemy to get a few good hits on you as well as the mount hotkey having a cool down for several minutes before it can be called again (this is not much of an addition to challenge but, why make games so easy, mounts should be mandatory but it should be a privilege not a right) (I watched a developer documentaries on fast travel and they confirmed there will be very little fast travel except through allied nodes which is understandable and please i beg you to keep it this way very good decision making), one of the prime reasons I'm backing this game is because of the lack of click-map-fast-travel and is a blight to open world games. 

What are your thoughts on these mechanics?
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Comments

  • I enjoy the fact that they are severely limiting the fast traveling, but the idea of waiting several minutes to mount would be extremely tilting and I would not play this game at all if they put that in.  That is way too ridiculous.
  • The decision for fast travel options has always been to increase gameplay to the detriment of immersion.

    What I think is so compelling about Ashes of Creation is that gameplay and immersion are not being pitted against one another - but are rather interconnected in a really exciting way.

    It seems so far that fast travel will be a liability for anyone interested in protecting the interests of their node throughout the region of influence.
  • Is this a repost?  I know I've read this discussion before.  And I don't mean one like it.  I mean THIS post.

    Personally, as much as I enjoy flying in WoW, I'm glad it's not happening in Ashes.  I'm also glad we won't have the same sort of instant travel as GW2.  I'd much rather explore the environment.
  • I'm really happy about the limited fast travel options personally, for 2 simple reasons.

    1.The world will look and be more populated as people move around.
    2. Going places will be meaningful. No more just hopping around the world. People will be established and invested in their homes. 
  • Now that I've caught my breath (those paragraph-sized sentences tho), I do have an opinion on this. And that is that fast travel in no way "ruins" any MMO. It's a *convenience* that's there for players who aren't there for immersion. Those who don't like fast travel...wait for it...don't have to use it. They are free to go about their lives without having to touch fast travel.

    Why then is it such a big issue with people? IMO, this is like saying "I hate seeing people RP, therefore no one should be allowed to RP, in case and I see it and it makes me sad." Like, come on...grow up? I won't enjoy the game one ounce more just by being forced to walk/ride around to get where I want to go, or even seeing other people around. I can interact with who I want, when I want. Again, why should anyone be forced into doing it?

    Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the different environments and beauty that the devs have created. But I also have limited time, and some (most) days I'd rather just be efficient, and that requires getting around quickly.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    What ruins MMORPGS is fundamental to the design of out-leveling zones and the ever expansive migration to higher level zones.

    Ashes is changing that design, such that we don't outlevel zones. And so that we have incentive to frequently return to adventure near the nodes were have citizenship - regardless of our level.
  • Cyn said:
    Now that I've caught my breath (those paragraph-sized sentences tho), I do have an opinion on this. And that is that fast travel in no way "ruins" any MMO. It's a *convenience* that's there for players who aren't there for immersion. Those who don't like fast travel...wait for it...don't have to use it. They are free to go about their lives without having to touch fast travel.

    Why then is it such a big issue with people? IMO, this is like saying "I hate seeing people RP, therefore no one should be allowed to RP, in case and I see it and it makes me sad." Like, come on...grow up? I won't enjoy the game one ounce more just by being forced to walk/ride around to get where I want to go, or even seeing other people around. I can interact with who I want, when I want. Again, why should anyone be forced into doing it?

    Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the different environments and beauty that the devs have created. But I also have limited time, and some (most) days I'd rather just be efficient, and that requires getting around quickly.
    I agree with you.

    Devil's Advocate: If most people are using fast travel, I'll see less people on the roads and more people just standing in larger cities. Thus making the world feel less alive.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017

    Devil's Advocate: If most people are using fast travel, I'll see less people on the roads and more people just standing in larger cities. Thus making the world feel less alive.
    I understand that fast travel has a [small] effect on immersion. But again, that's not really anyone else's problem and I personally think it's pretty selfish as it's essentially saying "your way of enjoying the game (being efficient) is slightly effecting my way of enjoying the game (immersion), therefore you need to not be allowed to do this thing full stop." 
  • Given that the Devs have already made the decision, I doubt that they're likely to change it anytime soon.

    I do get that the people who enjoy immersion...walking to dungeons... finding a group in a city etc
    Will probably love this game

    Those who love fast travel may find that the whole thing is just too slow and may all leave.....

    But given that the team are planning the game from the pov of no fast travel, I'd expect the team to make sure that everything you could possibly need, dungeons, quests, roleplay, crafting, politics and jumping puzzles....everything you need, would be in easy travel distance from the node heart.

    Why do you normally need fast travel?
    To get somewhere else.
    It may be that some of you are overestimating the need to go somewhere else.

    Just an idea.
  • Cyn said:
    I understand that fast travel has a [small] effect on immersion. But again, that's not really anyone else's problem and I personally think it's pretty selfish as it's essentially saying "your way of enjoying the game (being efficient) is slightly effecting my way of enjoying the game (immersion), therefore you need to not be allowed to do this thing full stop."  
    Fair counter argument. I remember In WoW when you had to walk across the world to get to dungeons for level 20. That dungeon just became one that you didn't do as Alliance (sorry I can't remember the name, maybe Blackfathom Deeps). 

    Like @Megs said, they've decided already and I'll be happy either way. :)
  • I was deathly afraid your subject meant you were going to be imploring the Devs to allow fast travel (for which I was going to have to stick you with my fellblade). Fortunately the opposite was true. B)

    I have played plenty of MMOs that have used fast travel and I'm not opposed to a very limited couple of waypoints (like from one continent to another) but overall I want my exploration and willingness to travel far into the wilderness to mean something.

    DAoC had this. "fast" travel was taking established fast horse travel routes but after that you were on your own to get to anything more remote. Needless to say if you run for 20 mins to get somewhere you were serious about exploring. this also meant if you died you would spawn 20 mins away! This was also the case out in realm deep in the enemies territory which made death and rezzing MUCH more meaningful. People in your group all die? Time to look for a Cleric before the death timer runs out!

    Another unlikely game that had similar exploration was Wizardry Online. To get to the deepest and best dungeons meant you would have to run a gauntlet for 10-20 mins just to get there. If you screwed up you died and had to start over. Again it made arriving at that remote spot feel like you had accomplished something just doing that.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I would love the chance to explore more and discover new things. I openly hope for and secretly dread that there will be exploration achievements.

    Cyreph's Guild Wars 2 Adventure

    1. Needs to get to a zone 10 km west of here
    2. Travels 1 km west
    3. Travels 2 km in no general direction to fulfill 30% of an exploration achievement
    4. Travels 500 m north and climbs a mountain to view a panorama (another type of achievement)
    5. Travels 1 km south to try a jump puzzle
    6. Travels 1 km towards original goal
    7. Repeats steps 2-5
    8. Travels 500 m north to fight a zone boss
    9. Repeats step 6-7
     :D 

    PS: I don't get to where I want to go very often.


  • Fast travel destroys their whole premise in many different ways. The economy is based on having to move large amounts of resources from resource rich areas to resource poor areas for fun and profit. If I can carry 200 pounds of ore and can fast travel from city A to city B, vs sending 2000 pounds of ore via caravan, I am going to fast travel back and forth 10 times to keep my ore outta the hands of those pesky pkers. No people on the roads, no random pvp. No caravans transporting goods, no meaningful conflict pvp. Groupfinder port into dungeon, fight, loot, then port back to town. Reduced risk vs reward of getting jacked on your way to or from said dungeon. They have stated that there will be a mix of different level monsters spread all over the terrain, so the whole "they don't want people migrating from lower level zones to higher level zones, thus making the lower level zones ghost towns." point invalid. Every zone will have various level content, that changes based on node development.
  • Beam me up Scotty
    james-kirk-iphone1
  • Cyn said:
    Now that I've caught my breath (those paragraph-sized sentences tho), I do have an opinion on this. And that is that fast travel in no way "ruins" any MMO. It's a *convenience* that's there for players who aren't there for immersion. Those who don't like fast travel...wait for it...don't have to use it. They are free to go about their lives without having to touch fast travel.

    Why then is it such a big issue with people? IMO, this is like saying "I hate seeing people RP, therefore no one should be allowed to RP, in case and I see it and it makes me sad." Like, come on...grow up? I won't enjoy the game one ounce more just by being forced to walk/ride around to get where I want to go, or even seeing other people around. I can interact with who I want, when I want. Again, why should anyone be forced into doing it?

    Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the different environments and beauty that the devs have created. But I also have limited time, and some (most) days I'd rather just be efficient, and that requires getting around quickly.
    You bring up a valid point, @Cyn.  However, I would ask that, instead of looking at the non-implementation of readily available fast travel, as a punishment, look at it as more of Intrepid ensuring an even playing field.

    This is plainly evident in scenarios, such as caravan missions, and sieges.  Caravans would be next to impossible to protect (unless guarded by a sizeable party), due to would-be attackers being able to quickly intercept the caravan once notified of it's departure.  This would mightily hinder node to node economics in a bad way.

    Also, it would devalue the goods of local markets, as players would be able to take goods that would normally be consigned to a specific area, and quickly transport it to a far off location, thus destabilizing node to node trading.  

    I'm sure there are other factors that fast travel would negatively impact.  

    Though I commiserate with your quandary, Intrepid has a specific design they're going for.  And, that means that convenient modes of transportation must be severely limited, for the sake of game balance.
  • Um. Personal fast travel cannot negate the importance of caravans.
    We need caravans because the weight that can carry on our persons is woefully limited.
    Which is why we need pack animals.

    I hope we at least have a hearthstone. And the hearthstone can be on a long timer.
    MMORPGs are about community. Part of community is being able to reach soical events in a reasonable time frame.
    When the devs are making appearances in the game after livestreams, we should all be able to attend. And, really, the same is true for casual gamers logging in to join social events after several days of being offline.

    Easy enough to have a long timer on the hearthstone - even if it's 2 or 4 or 8 hour cooldowns.

    Reminder that Ashes does have limited fast travel as the ultimate for the Scientific nodes. We'll have to see what a world is like with multiple fast travel networks due to having multiple Scientific nodes.

    Also, we know that Mages have a flight spell.
  • Dygz said:
    Also, we know that Mages have a flight spell.
    You're just trying to get us nerfed before the game even starts aren't you :fearful:
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I want to keep Mages at face level.  :p
  • lexmax said:
    Dygz said:
    Also, we know that Mages have a flight spell.
    You're just trying to get us nerfed before the game even starts aren't you :fearful:
    Every class has a similar mechanic. It is less flight and more hover and land.
  • https://youtu.be/KHTWhIF5cqI?t=45s
    A liitle bit more than hover and land.
    I don't think everyone gets a similar ability.
    Rogue's have Climb, but I wouldn't consider that similar.

    Mage Flight isn't going to get you home fast. But, it will probably take you higher than a Dawnbreaker.
  • Dygz said:
    https://youtu.be/KHTWhIF5cqI?t=45s
    A liitle bit more than hover and land.
    I don't think everyone gets a similar ability.
    Rogue's have Climb, but I wouldn't consider that similar.

    Mage Flight isn't going to get you home fast. But, it will probably take you higher than a Dawnbreaker.
    Hmmm...I remember the comment being along the lines of "This is our mage using an ability to negotiate gaps in the terrain, every archetype has a similar ability." Then again, I am old, and it was a couple months back that I watched the video, so entirely possible I have misremembered.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    There's a playthrough I'm still trying to find where I think Steven, playing the Mage, flew over a village/town wall. I hope similar in that sense would mean that a Rogue could Climb the wall and a Tank could bash through it

  • Yep, he used the "flight" to jump over the wall in the 4 person dungeon crawl video. I think that is when they mentioned the rogue climb ability also.
  • I think the main desire to limit fast travel comes from Zerg guilds and caravans. In that regards personal fast travel would effect caravans, in that they could be swarmed by a guild anywhere along their path if a guild member finds them.

    Personal travel from city to city could also allow for this, prompting guild members to teleport to a specific city and blockade a caravan. I know this will be partially implemented by scientific nodes. I can also see where a hearthstone would not necessarily allow for this.

    Another reason I think fast travel is limited falls into the "I made it, it's my game, you have to see it" category. IS has/will spent/spend a lot of time making the land travel friendly full of all sorts of wonders and they want you to see it.

    As a GM there is not much more disheartening than spending a year detailing an entire campaign kingdom just to have your players spell casters teleport the party everywhere. This forces your hand into doing all exploration quest before a certain level is reached and then using a variety of methods to deter the group later. At one point in time most GM's I have played with have stated something along the lines of "I wish said teleportation spell was a higher level. Now I can't do cool thing that I wanted to do for my players."
  • Hmmm...I remember the comment being along the lines of "This is our mage using an ability to negotiate gaps in the terrain, every archetype has a similar ability." Then again, I am old, and it was a couple months back that I watched the video, so entirely possible I have misremembered.

    Maybe what he meant was every class will have a method of traversing a different type of difficult terrain. 

    I am hoping that all the classes not "do the same thing but in a different manner". I played games where in an effort to balance the classes, all the classes ended up being quite homogeneous in abilities. Strength in diversity would be cool.
  • @freespiryt My previous posts were in regard to fast travel *in general*, since the OP asked a fairly generalized question: "what are your thoughts on these mechanics?" instead of "should fast travel be implemented in Ashes?"

    I'm perfectly aware that fast travel won't be a thing in Ashes. I've watched all the live streams and soaked up as much info as possible. It doesn't really bother me if an MMO chooses not to make fast travel available, especially if there's a reason behind it, which as you and other have pointed out...there is. But would I personally prefer to have it? Yes. And is it a bad mechanic to have in any MMO, as the OP claims? Absolutely not. That's really all I was trying to say.

    The caravan PVP is what I'm looking forward to most at the moment, after all.
  • Fast travel is a thing in Ashes.
  • Cyn said:

    Why then is it such a big issue with people? IMO, this is like saying "I hate seeing people RP, therefore no one should be allowed to RP, in case and I see it and it makes me sad." Like, come on...grow up? I won't enjoy the game one ounce more just by being forced to walk/ride around to get where I want to go, or even seeing other people around. I can interact with who I want, when I want. Again, why should anyone be forced into doing it?

    This is the way I feel about it to, and I don't want to have to feed my mount. I want a whistle or something I can keep in my pocket and just call it when I need it.
  • being a casual gamer myself, I sometimes have limited time to play on certain days due to real life commitments. without fast travel of some kind, it would severely limit what I am able to do in that time. 
    lets say I can play 10 hours week. 2 days a week I can play 3hours. That leaves me 4 hours remaining split over 5 days. This takes into account my work week. On the days I work, I would be limited in what I could do without some sort of fast travel. If i need to farm something that takes me 15min to get there and 15 min to get back, I will end up spending half my time walking around, and not accomplishing my current Task. 

    I do understand that GW2 style fast travel is too much, but there must be some sort compromise we can find. If real life forces me to stop playing, not being able to teleport back to my node and log off would be a pain.

    lets hope that a compromise can be found :smile:
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