CLASS Skills seem to be DUMBED-DOWN

ArchivedUser

After watching the TWITCH Stream on June/30 it seems as though CLASS Skills are DUMBED-DOWN.

I'l explain, WOW use to have a GREAT 3 Tier Tech-Tree for your CLASS and you could go down one of the tiers and specialize in it or have a little bit of everything. Now WOW no longer gives you free reign with your the choices for you CLASS and how you use them are really DUMBED-DOWN. That's the reason I quit WOW.

After Steven finished explaining the CLERIC Class I was really underwhelmed. The CLERIC felt DUMBED-DOWN. I can understand if it was under one Tech-Tree that gives you both healing and damage, but I think there needs to be 3 Tech-Trees to go down like in WOW. One that focuses on HEALING, One that focuses on DAMAGE, and One that focuses on a mix of HEALING & DAMAGE but not as effective as the other two yet would make you more versatile. The CLERIC that Steven explained fits in the HEALING & DAMAGE / Versatile SPEC.

I planned on making a HEALING / CLERIC (Cleric / Cleric) God of Healing, but the way they described the CLERIC isn't the play-style that I want.

We NEED a 3 Tier Tech-Tree to really have A-LOT of CUSTOMIZATION for our CLASS.

ArchivedUser

This is a playable pre-alpha for PAX. 

I don't think it's meant to be anything close to the finalized version. 

ArchivedUser

VECNA said:

I planned on making a HEALING / CLERIC (Cleric / Cleric) God of Healing, but the way they described the CLERIC isn't the play-style that I want.

We NEED a 3 Tier Tech-Tree to really have A-LOT of CUSTOMIZATION for our CLASS.

Dont tell me your the type of player that sits in a corner dropping heals on tanks and thats it. All they told us is a vision on what they want broadly nothing is set in stone as yet.

ArchivedUser

Just because nothing is set in stone does not mean his openion is invalid. How will they know what players want if he does not voice his openion. 

Although repeating and capitalizing key phraises was pretty mind numbing, his argument is completely fair.

ArchivedUser

True....if I go to Baskin Robbins and want chocolate ice cream, and they give me rocky road, I am totally in my right to throw it back over the counter at the clerk and scream "HOW DARE YOU GIVE ME MARSHMALLOWS!!! I DIDN'T ORDER MARSHMALLOWS!!" They then have the right to ban me from their store. Another pithy one is "Opinions and Assholes", as in everyone has one. But MMO communities tend to have all of them.

ArchivedUser

LocksmithArmy said:

Just because nothing is set in stone does not mean his openion is invalid. How will they know what players want if he does not voice his openion. 

Although repeating and capitalizing key phraises was pretty mind numbing, his argument is completely fair.

I'm not saying that his opinion is invalid. Just saying that his concern about the game being dumbed down based on what the developers shared during the stream might be unfounded. 

The developers have mentioned quite a few times previously that there will be quite a lot of opportunity to customize classes with augments to change the way they play.

Which is what the OP is asking for I'm assuming? Being able to customzie classes? 

ArchivedUser

LocksmithArmy said:

Just because nothing is set in stone does not mean his openion is invalid. How will they know what players want if he does not voice his openion.

Its not a case of what the players want at this stage of development. I believe its a vision Steven had with people years ago, he was able to fund it and he was able to implement them. People do come up with good ideas, but its also up to the developers to see if some of these ideas fit or how much of a change will be needed to ensure this change to happen.
You are also right his opinion is not invalid, but they have a certain way they want to do things and they also need to test it all.

ArchivedUser

SAW CAPS. ATTRACTED. 

HALF ORC MAYBE. 

UMJI SEE VID TALK AGAIN. 

ArchivedUser

NightshadeRaven said:

VECNA said:

I planned on making a HEALING / CLERIC (Cleric / Cleric) God of Healing, but the way they described the CLERIC isn't the play-style that I want.

We NEED a 3 Tier Tech-Tree to really have A-LOT of CUSTOMIZATION for our CLASS.

Dont tell me your the type of player that sits in a corner dropping heals on tanks and thats it. All they told us is a vision on what they want broadly nothing is set in stone as yet.

A class with ultimate healing power would be really really cool though. In one MMORPG I played, there was a class similar to this having 3 healing skills also party-healing skills, and it was so fun. Cleric+Cleric would be really fun with those immortalizing and resurection skills. Add debuff skills on to that and there you have a God.  

ArchivedUser

We only got a smidget amount of information and yet it's not set it stone until alpha and that doesn't even mean it's going to be in game on release but for now enjoy the information steven and intrepid team decides to give too the community.


~we'll judge after release~ hehehe  

ArchivedUser

Quite early to call the classes dumbed down, don't you think?

From what I've understood, most of the customization is going to come from augmenting your skills. What they described in the last live stream were completely unaugmented skills.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

ArchivedUser

It sounded more to me that the skills they mentioned for the classes were the ones they had done and were ready for people to see and not in anyway an indication of what any of the classes would look like.

OP is just jumping the gun in complaining about what the vision of the class is when all we have been allowed to do so far is peek through a keyhole.

ArchivedUser

So you are making reference to I assume WoW priest with its discipline/holy/shadow which inevitably ends up a single optimal role which was heal botting with a mouse cursor unit frame macro using the most efficient heal ability and quite possibly the most asinine auto attack system ever in an MMO.

Compared to an active situational 5* skill primary system with combos, group chaining and an ultimate ability that have yet to be augmented with the current 8 other possible secondary class systems.

that will be a functional play test for PAX.

having the option of using 100+ skills and abilities typically ends up being the 5 or so used in actuality making the other 95 just an illusion of choice.

ArchivedUser

LocksmithArmy said:

Just because nothing is set in stone does not mean his openion is invalid. How will they know what players want if he does not voice his openion. 

To have a valid opinion one must have evidence, and the only evidence available to all of us at this point was the info given on a stream that would be enough to not fill much more than tooltip. We're 2 years from launch so lets not go all creating threads with sensationalist headlines. Voice your concerns freely by all means, and lets hold Intrepid accountable for their development, but let's criticise constructively about what we know to be true not what "seems" to be true.

ArchivedUser

I voiced my opinion based on what we were told. Granted this is even before Pre-Alpha so a-lot can change in a year and a half I know that. Fortunately for me I'm a Braver of Worlds so I'll be able to test the game out this December/2017 and leave constructive opinions for the Devs. 

ArchivedUser

VECNA said:

I voiced my opinion based on what we were told. Granted this is even before Pre-Alpha so a-lot can change in a year and a half I know that. Fortunately for me I'm a Braver of Worlds so I'll be able to test the game out this December/2017 and leave constructive opinions for the Devs. 

Umm...I think you are going to be sorely disappointed if you think the Braver of Worlds alpha is in December. There are several posts about this giving the correct info. For those that won keys in the giveaways there is a separate alpha that will go on around this December. It is totally separate from "earliest access to Ashes" and under a NDA. The earliest that they will guarantee the non-NDA persistent alpha is Dec 2018, but it is likely to be much sooner. That is the alpha that Bravers on up will be allowed into. And before I get a response of "Nuh-uh, you don't know that!" here is the answer right off of Discord. 

Shunex-03/28/2017

Shunex

-can you clarify a couple of things for us please. a) will winners of a alpha key be able to participate in all of the test stages (i.e. beta) b) what alpha will the winners be able to participate in? some people seem to think that the alpha key will allow them to participate in the family/friends test, c) will the testing stages come in waves (i.e. alpha 1-3, beta 1-3) or will it persist and have updates when needed?

Steven 

+We have several Alphas planned obviously. As well as Friends/Family invites. Winners of the Alpha Keys will have access to our Early Alphas, that will be by invite only. They will be under NDAs for these alphas. Our crowdsourcing packages will include access to a persistent alpha, seperate and later than the alpha that our weekly drawings give access to. 

ArchivedUser

Like the rest have said its pre-alpha so there is no way of knowing if these will be the finished skills in the game or just basics for pax

ArchivedUser

VECNA said:

After watching the TWITCH Stream on June/30 it seems as though CLASS Skills are DUMBED-DOWN.

I'l explain, WOW use to have a GREAT 3 Tier Tech-Tree for your CLASS and you could go down one of the tiers and specialize in it or have a little bit of everything. Now WOW no longer gives you free reign with your the choices for you CLASS and how you use them are really DUMBED-DOWN. That's the reason I quit WOW.

After Steven finished explaining the CLERIC Class I was really underwhelmed. The CLERIC felt DUMBED-DOWN. I can understand if it was under one Tech-Tree that gives you both healing and damage, but I think there needs to be 3 Tech-Trees to go down like in WOW. One that focuses on HEALING, One that focuses on DAMAGE, and One that focuses on a mix of HEALING & DAMAGE but not as effective as the other two yet would make you more versatile. The CLERIC that Steven explained fits in the HEALING & DAMAGE / Versatile SPEC.

I planned on making a HEALING / CLERIC (Cleric / Cleric) God of Healing, but the way they described the CLERIC isn't the play-style that I want.

We NEED a 3 Tier Tech-Tree to really have A-LOT of CUSTOMIZATION for our CLASS.

you do know clerics use plate, mace and shield right. what you want is a priest. not a cleric.  the healing/damage is just as a cleric would perform. they're like paladins but not quite. 

i agree that i was underwhelmed as well but not for the same reason. but i think mine is from a lack of information.  

i feel like we will have in dept talent trees/exc if we don't the game would crash. we have class combinations. we don't need 3 trees to go into for each class combination, we just need one very well made skill/talent tree for each combination of classes. imo

ArchivedUser

I don't understand why everyone like to write here "it's for PAX, it's too early to talk, we don't know," whenever someone writes negative towards to the content giving on the live stream.

 Are we not allowed to discuss anything 'till the genuine release date of game? Let's shut down the forum's discussion then. These type of responses do not contribute to the the thread or counter what he says, eventhough I get excited for Clerics which seems so fun to me. I liked the way they introduced Clerics.

We're talking upon what been given to us, and they did not say they won't follow the style the skills they explained or they're gonna change everything. They just declared to demonstrate classes with some skills coming to PAX. These skills could be solid.

And OP here declares that he doesn't want to see this kind of cleric system whether the Intrepid does intend to make or not. According to the live stream, I think they intend to avoid an allmighty healing god cleric.

ArchivedUser

Almighty healing cleric is all relative and what you make of it, given the game mechanics.

People can discuss whatever the CMs will allow.
Other posters can't stop people from posting.
Theorycraft away - and other people will share their responses.

ArchivedUser

 Dolphin said:

I don't understand why everyone like to write here "it's for PAX, it's too early to talk, we don't know," whenever someone writes negative towards to the content giving on the live stream.

 Are we not allowed to discuss anything 'till the genuine release date of game? Let's shut down the forum's discussion then. These type of responses do not contribute to the the thread or counter what he says, eventhough I get excited for Clerics which seems so fun to me. I liked the way they introduced Clerics.

We're talking upon what been given to us, and they did not say they won't follow the style the skills they explained or they're gonna change everything. They just declared to demonstrate classes with some skills coming to PAX. These skills could be solid.

And OP here declares that he doesn't want to see this kind of cleric system whether the Intrepid does intend to make or not. According to the live stream, I think they intend to avoid an allmighty healing god cleric.

Oh, I can't speak for the rest. I love theory crafting, speculating and discussing about how classes might turn out or what I would love to see in the game. 

I wasn't giving the reply to shoot down his discussion. It was in reply to this:

After Steven finished explaining the CLERIC Class I was really underwhelmed.

To let the OP know that this was just a pre-alpha and most likely very basic test stuff the developers have put together. 

Yes, these skills could possibly be solid, but we're still missing the 8 secondary class augments (8 tiers instead of 3 tiers for clerics example), and all the other augments (from religion, race, social progressions), that could change and augment those skills to suit the OP's "God of healing" playstyle. 

No offense meant, The main point of the OP's post seemed more of a "I'm worried that the class has been dumbed down" rather than an invite to discuss and speculate based on the information we have. 

So normally most people, even friendly/helpful ones, would come in to tell him the game is in alpha, things are not solidified (set in stone yet) etc to help comfort or lessen his worry. 

ArchivedUser

I didn't think it sounded dumbed down. To me, it sounded like they are building an in depth system that will involved positional tactics, choices and thought. Now, it does sound like a healer will be a healer mainly and not a tank who heals on the side or a summoner who heals while wielding a bow.

I do think it is totally fair for the OP to say that this is not what he was hoping.  Even if it is pre-alpha-pax it is what we have to go on for understanding the classes. If this doesn't sound good to a person then they should voice it. Though maybe not using all caps. 

Now, most of us do think that with all the 'things yet to come' there will be many more choices and paths for the healer to take. However... what if there isn't? What if the paths just refined what was talked about? Always good to get ideas out there.  I don't agree that a three tier tech tree is the way to do it though. It could be 8 tree, could be no tree maybe it could be a bunny path. No reason to limit it to an idea that has already been used over and over again. 

Still, I don't trust healers. They always pick weird times to jump into the middle of the fight and start bashing things and talking about the gods. Very distracting. 

ArchivedUser

Can't wait till late 2018 where i can finally prey on weak souls.. ^^

And comeon, we all know all classes will choose cleric as there 2nd.

ArchivedUser

a6point6 said:

Can't wait till late 2018 where i can finally prey on weak souls.. ^^

And comeon, we all know all classes will choose cleric as there 2nd.

a man after my own phylactery

ArchivedUser

I can only say that I support complex decks because I enjoy when decks require a brain to make them good and efficient, and I also enjoy when making your deck can make you unique to some extent, somewhat different than other players that share your race and class.

This is why I can say, the more complex decks can be made, the better. I'm all for it.

That being said, I'm certain what Intrepid presented to us is just a start of a design, and there is so much more work to be done on class skills. People can't honestly expect that final versions of skills are created on day 1. o.O

ArchivedUser

The way I see it is that AoC Clerics can be capable to survive fights and don't need to be protected by the party so they don't have to worry about using healing spells in combat.

ArchivedUser

I personally liked everything I heard in the stream yesterday regarding Clerics. 

I don't think the game needs trees like WoW. The variety that is being planned through augments (race,sub class, religion, social group) and via weapon skills should be sufficient to create variety in the community and allow for a almost completely pure healer class. 

I, like others, believe this is just a sample of their skills for a PAX build that is playable. 

ArchivedUser

a6point6 said:

And comeon, we all know all classes will choose cleric as there 2nd.

I also kinda expect that, especially in PVP. RogueCleric and HunterCleric might be very interesting, sucking life out of the enemy while being evasive and fast. They're gonna be so annoying as enemies. I wonder if they're gonna do a Path Of Exile thing like when you have something good, something's taken from you like trading your hp gauge with fast rebuilding energy shield.

Gothix said:

That being said, I'm certain what Intrepid presented to us is just a start of a design

I don't know. Jeffrey Bard gave their thoughts around Cleric and their thought on the theme, not just for PAX, what they have in mind like when Steven said "clerics", he added they thought "what does it mean to be a healer" and later added on the Vampire skill that "you can't really generate something from nothning, you have to withdraw it from something else" which also puts what kind of plans they have for Clerics, and it basicly clashes with mentality of what the OP said. OP wants to generate instant life force without majorly requiring to absorb it from a target and the Lead Game Designer kinda have intention for it to get sucked from a target to make the Cleric more engaged with battle.

If they're coming to PAX just for visuals and fun, why would they mention what kind of mindset they have around the classes and game mechanic? They're thinking the roles and the position of the classes, and they're already implementing them to give it a glimpse.

ArchivedUser

I agree with @Dolphin about the developers' vision for the class. I don't agree that having the healing spells deal damage automatically makes it a hybrid class. They didn't say that their heals require enemies to be around in order to heal allies (unless I'm mistaken). They are just going for the theme that in order to give life life must be taken away and the spells reflect that theme. Clerics are still pure healers, they just also have the added effect of harming enemies for the sake of the theme Steven is trying to build. The only reason Clerics harm people is to heal others. If this isn't a support role I don't know what is. 

ArchivedUser

NightshadeRaven said:

VECNA said:

I planned on making a HEALING / CLERIC (Cleric / Cleric) God of Healing, but the way they described the CLERIC isn't the play-style that I want.

We NEED a 3 Tier Tech-Tree to really have A-LOT of CUSTOMIZATION for our CLASS.

Dont tell me your the type of player that sits in a corner dropping heals on tanks and thats it. All they told us is a vision on what they want broadly nothing is set in stone as yet.

Maybe that's exactly what HE wants to do... who are you to judge?

ArchivedUser