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How do you imagine the Summoner ?
ArchivedUser
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Funny thing about Summoners , I'd always envision a Summoner being able to use a variety of rituals to summon magical creatures. Albeit, imagining what they had to do to become "worthy" of summoning those same magical creatures is something I hope to see incorporated in this MMO.
In short, I imagine that, first, they would have to Explore the in-game world to seek out Ancient Ritual-Summoning Books with the Help of a ... " Guide ", whether that be an ancient script, scribes, or a magical-entity found in a Rare Relic - almost like a Treasure Hunt.
Or
The Summoner would have to seek-out an in-game teacher that's hard to find, or maybe they need to Gather certain items throughout the game-world and attempt to Summon the Creature - in the hopes that it'll be an added Summon to their arsenal * - something that'll make each Summon unique in obtaining it.
( and maybe a few other methods ... like Potions for Baiting the Weaker/Lesser-Summons ? Idk, you'd have to let the imaginative mind run wild
)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another thing I'd envisioned, ... is for a Newly-Tamed Summoned-Creature
(achieve-able via leveling up ) to have its own characteristics - such as ... lets say the Summoned-Creature doesn't think its Summoner is not* " worthy " of Using itself ? And tries to misbehave ?
( Almost like the Pokemon Series, sometimes the Pokemon won't listen to the Command of its Trainer )
( sorry for using this Reference - first thing that came to mind
)
As such, what if the Summoner has to perform a Certain task to prove himself/herself? Such as a daunting quest-chain? (possibly Soloed or not ? Both ?) The quest(s) could be anything
(seems reasonable that it must be soloed, right ?)
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{ NOTE: Combat-Effectiveness = HP, DPS, Healing, Tanking / Survivalbility and Abilities (?) }
But as far as Combat ... I'd like to think that the Summoner can Summon a Maximum of 2 - 3 Creatures ... Once the Summoner summons a Creature, the U.I. Ability-Bar will open additional abilities that'll be granted from the Summoned-Creature. In addition:
( In short, these " limitations " is to balance classes - it'll be too much of an advantage against most opponents & players )
BUT, she / he will still be able to have two " Meat-Shields "
( ... after some though about the above statement ... the "Combat-Effectiveness " of both Summoned-Creatures, as a whole , would have to be Cut-in Half. And if its 3
Summoned-Creatures, then the " Combat-Effectiveness " will be evenly divided into 1/3 )
The abilities could be randomly selected and/or hand-picked ? idk all speculation )
Lastly, not sure if a Summoner should have a Weapon or not.
(based on this image below ... and a few others )
My guess ... maybe possess a weapon ? In case if the Summon-Creatured has a Time-Gauge, dies early, or Summoning has an Adaptive-Cooldown ?
****After going over all that I typed ...this is what i concluded:
The Summoner should be able to Summon a maximum of 2-3 Summoned-Creatures , but their Combat-Effectiveness:
{ DPS output, survivability, HP, Abilities, Healing, Tanking, etc ... }
Will be Divided based on the Number of Summons in-active. In other words, Similar to Tien's Multi-Form Technique:
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Multi-Form
(sorry for this reference too - first thing that came to mind >.< )
This is to balance the Summoner.
2 = 1/2 of both Summons
3 = 1/3 of the Three Summons
What do you think ? How do you view the Summoner ?
In short, I imagine that, first, they would have to Explore the in-game world to seek out Ancient Ritual-Summoning Books with the Help of a ... " Guide ", whether that be an ancient script, scribes, or a magical-entity found in a Rare Relic - almost like a Treasure Hunt.
Or
The Summoner would have to seek-out an in-game teacher that's hard to find, or maybe they need to Gather certain items throughout the game-world and attempt to Summon the Creature - in the hopes that it'll be an added Summon to their arsenal * - something that'll make each Summon unique in obtaining it.
( and maybe a few other methods ... like Potions for Baiting the Weaker/Lesser-Summons ? Idk, you'd have to let the imaginative mind run wild
)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another thing I'd envisioned, ... is for a Newly-Tamed Summoned-Creature
(achieve-able via leveling up ) to have its own characteristics - such as ... lets say the Summoned-Creature doesn't think its Summoner is not* " worthy " of Using itself ? And tries to misbehave ?
( Almost like the Pokemon Series, sometimes the Pokemon won't listen to the Command of its Trainer )
( sorry for using this Reference - first thing that came to mind
)As such, what if the Summoner has to perform a Certain task to prove himself/herself? Such as a daunting quest-chain? (possibly Soloed or not ? Both ?) The quest(s) could be anything
(seems reasonable that it must be soloed, right ?)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{ NOTE: Combat-Effectiveness = HP, DPS, Healing, Tanking / Survivalbility and Abilities (?) }
But as far as Combat ... I'd like to think that the Summoner can Summon a Maximum of 2 - 3 Creatures ... Once the Summoner summons a Creature, the U.I. Ability-Bar will open additional abilities that'll be granted from the Summoned-Creature. In addition:
- If using one Summoned-Creature, then that Creature's abilities will be fully accessible to it's Summoner
- But if using two Summoned Creatures, the Summoner would have to Utilize half of the Abilities of each Summoned-Creature . I say " Half " because that might make the Summoner too Over-Powered if she/he is able to Utilize a Full-Set of Two "Palettes" of abilities. In other words, multitasking between the Limited Abilities, but still being viably effective
- EDIT: Coincidentally, if 1 of the Summons Dies / Faints in combat, then the abilities that's associated with the Summon is also retracted - because those Abilities belong to the Summon. But this allows for the other Summon(s) Abilities to be used
( In short, these " limitations " is to balance classes - it'll be too much of an advantage against most opponents & players )
BUT, she / he will still be able to have two " Meat-Shields "
( ... after some though about the above statement ... the "Combat-Effectiveness " of both Summoned-Creatures, as a whole , would have to be Cut-in Half. And if its 3
Summoned-Creatures, then the " Combat-Effectiveness " will be evenly divided into 1/3 )
The abilities could be randomly selected and/or hand-picked ? idk all speculation )
Lastly, not sure if a Summoner should have a Weapon or not.
(based on this image below ... and a few others
)My guess ... maybe possess a weapon ? In case if the Summon-Creatured has a Time-Gauge, dies early, or Summoning has an Adaptive-Cooldown ?
****After going over all that I typed ...this is what i concluded:
The Summoner should be able to Summon a maximum of 2-3 Summoned-Creatures , but their Combat-Effectiveness:
{ DPS output, survivability, HP, Abilities, Healing, Tanking, etc ... }
Will be Divided based on the Number of Summons in-active. In other words, Similar to Tien's Multi-Form Technique:
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Multi-Form
(sorry for this reference too - first thing that came to mind >.< )
This is to balance the Summoner.
2 = 1/2 of both Summons
3 = 1/3 of the Three Summons
What do you think ? How do you view the Summoner ?
0
Comments
{ " Once the Summoner summons a Creature, the U.I. Ability-Bar will open additional abilities that'll be granted from the Summoned-Creature " }
Sorry about that
EDIT: I added it in
(gif that says poisonz here)
ty
Ok. I actually have ideas for how summoners would work, lets do this!
How will the QTY of summon work?
Your system involves limiting the "utility/skill" of the summons via equation: Skill/# of summons.
I actually have a different approach to how it would work. My idea would be based on equation Concentration - Summon %Con cost. Yes, give summoners a unique resource bar outside of HP/MP.
Example: Your Concentration is 100%. The cost to summon a basic skeleton is 1% of Con = 100 skeleton. Or skeleton general is 10%. Dread knight is 25%. Dragon is 100%.
Concentration does not have regeneration or a Max/Min. It's a static number. But the % concentration of a summon can be reduced by the "loyalty or love" it has for the summoner.
Essentially segwaying to your idea of pokemon on taming the summon. It's similar to a pet system I would suppose but more entwine with the summoner's playstyle. As you raise your summon, you unlock new skills, stronger stats (for the summon) and reduce concentration cost. Summoners can access their summons info through the pet UI screen. For other players, it would only show "pets" and maybe "mounts". But for a summoner, it will also show their "summons".
A summoner has to take care of their most prize summon. "loyalty and love" helps reduce the summons cost. This is something gain over time. But if the summon is killed during battle, it will lose "loyalty and love" and will be on cooldown for X period of time. If the summon keeps dying, it will gain "hate" towards the summoner, making their cost higher than normal. This "hate" will naturally reduce over time, in the case of a dragon that may die, it could gain hate that would exceed the Con cost of 100%, meaning a summoner cannot summon the dragon again, until maybe 24 hrs when the cost drops back down to 100%.
Your idea is understandable for the balance aspect. But some summons are low level summons which is not applicable to your method of dividing the summon's utility. If @Nagash wants an undead army, this method would not suffice.
While i did mentioned the term " Weaker / Lesser-Summons " , this is what i meant:
Summons achieved via Level-up & Summons found in the Wild
( ... maybe a mixture of both ? )
Ultimately, however, the Summons found in the Vast-Wilderness will not be " taming. " But rather, Magical-Creatures that's to only be obtainable via Summoners. But then the Scenario:
Wild Summons vs Tame-able Creatures
(it could be a thing
In short ... not to sound " too complex " - lets say:
Quality Summon = Lesser-Summon, Greater-Summon, and Elder-Summon
(because my first thought was how the " Yu-Yu Hakasho " ranked its Demon-Class
With each Summon possessing it's own Elemental-Attributes.
For Example - such as the picture used in the Original Post ? The Serpent can be defined as a " Water-Attributed Summon "
inferring thats these are ... " Lesser Summons " . And the Player's Character is going to need something to compensate / balance things out. And their ...
" Combat-Effectiveness " would be in question considering the amount.
Because if there's 100 Summons out at once ...that''ll be kinda unfair tbh - mainly for close-range. Plus, 100 Summons for one Player ?!? Lols, imagine if its 10 Summoners that can do that ? That'll definitely lead to some Zerging .
#10-man-Zerg
Even if this was to somehow be balanced, you got to remember how the 100 Summons might affect Frame-Rate on other's PCs / Laptops . And its a UE4 Engine for an MMO - its questionable how that would result in performance* and/or optimization
Overall, liked the idea
My only question is ... what will the Mana be used for with a Summoner ? Spells for Close-Range ? I honestly didn't go into Summoning Cost tbh
forgotten about it
@nagash needs an up-grade in his "army" then
Definitely. Your method works if you add the distinction of "lesser/greater/elder/etc" summon. My example was just for the idea to get across. Not really a hard number. I agree that 100 skeletons can lag the server lol. Though if it's built well, maybe it can handle 100000 skeletons
With my method, the distinction is under 1 variable (cost). But with your method, the distinction requires multiple variable to the equation. Example:
Max summon 3 elder.
1 Elder = 3 greater
3 greater = 3 lesser
So summon 1 elder, you can summon 6 more greater. Or 1 greater and 15 lessers. Or 3 greaters, and 9 lessers. Etc. Etc.
Elder=A, greater=B, lesser=C
Equation 27 = A/3 + B/9 + C/27 vs 100 = Summon cost.
Category also leads to less flexibility. With the 100 scale, you can adjust the cost depending on power of the summon. You can have essentially 100 tiers without having to differentiate between their class (a sliding scale). With the lesser/greater/elder/etc, it's a step-scale (which isn't necessarily bad, it's just less flexible to work with).
The first thing we need to know is what Intrepid intends. I remember hearing in a live stream at some point that a Summoner in their world does a great portion of his work through his summoning. They may even have said that some abilities on the Summoners hotbar would come from his pet. In this respect, what Intrepid seems to intend is that the Summoner works with a pet that is more or less permanent and at the same time, it was greatly implied that the Summoner had one primary pet.
Taking that as their intentions, here are some things I wouldn't mind seeing.
I see Summoners as different than Necromancers. A lot of people probably wouldn't agree. It's the EQ2 in me. Necromancers and Conjurors were both "Summoners" in EQ2, but had completely different skillsets. I suppose if Intrepid wants them to be one class, ok, but it feels like they are so different it would make more sense to have two.
In some ways, I like magic to make sense. In that vein, a summoner should be using what is around him. For example, a summoner standing in the middle of the desert shouldn't be capable of summoning a frost or water elemental, but could probably summon things like flame, earth and air elementals without issue.
I would like different pets to have very different abilities and uses. The earth pet perhaps is "tankier" while the air pet is more capable of damage. You get the idea. I think it's a given, but it needs to be thought through completely.
A Summoner should always have access to a couple basic pets, where some might only be available in specific circumstances. For example, a lava elemental might only be available near an active volcano, a frost elemental only available when the environment allows for frozen water, a lightning elemental only in outdoor environments during a rainstorm, etc. The more the better. Perhaps you need to visit certain NPC's to learn how to use some of the more exotic ones.
In keeping with the above, a Summoner should probably have some sort of utility ability that allows him to ascertain what summons are available in his given area and the possible strength of such. For instance, in swamp, a Summoner might see that he can summon water elementals of considerable strength, earth elementals of average strength, air elementals of average strength and weak fire elementals. He might also notice the potential for different elementals that he does not yet have knowledge of, for instance a tar elemental in that swamp might show up to him as "Unknown elemental".
If the pet is to be the conduit thru which a Summoner tends his craft, these pets need to have durability on par with players and proportional to their role. Tank pets should be tough like tanky players. DPS pets should be . . . untanky like a DPS player. So forth and so on. I've seen many cases where Summoner pets are the conduit, but for some reason are much more fragile than they should be. Don't punish a Summoner for being a Summoner.
I would like to see the summon/rouge = necromancer, while summoner/mage = elementalist (more inline with what you described).
Summoner/summoner would summon tamable monsters ingame.
Well... that's what I would like to see.
As for durability, I would agree that it should have a meaningful durability. I hope to see some sort of pet system so the summon can grow and become more "durable" as it lvls up. If your favorite summon is a slime, it can grow and be somewhat useful endgame if you took the time and care to raise it. Ofcourse not to the point where it can out scale a dragon summon.
I talk alot about skeletons because I used to play a necromancer, that what I was familiar with. The playstyle revolves around having as many minions as possible rather than having the one strong minion. I hope to see both possible playstyle in game through player choice.
I think Shirikuryu is on the right track, as for final mixes it could be that the secondary archetype determines the ultimate type of summon (though I'm stuck on what summoner itself inherently summons...)
Summoner/Bard: Support Based Pets; probably involving sound (like sirens?)
Summoner/Cleric: Healing Based Pets; a light based fairy or something like? (Kinda Like FF14's Scholar)
Summoner/Fighter: Melee Weapon DPS Pets; like dancing blade/s
Summoner/Mage: Elemental Based Pets; basically elemental golems... perhaps these being heavier on the status ailments (freeze, burn, shock, etc?)
Summoner/Ranger: Natural Pets; taming wild creatures/ or just animals and/or plants?
Summoner/Rogue: Negative Energy/DPS Pets: Necromancy anyone?
Summoner/Summoner: I'm stumped here... something not covered by the others?
Summoner/Tank: Defense Based Pet; Perhaps something like iron golems? Animated Shield?
( wouldn't be surprised if the Bard Leveling-Up experience will be the most bizarre - rather than Elemental-Magic Spells, the Bard Archetype might have to learn
" Verses " / Hymns - but they wouldn't have to be relative to an in-game Deity. Rather, a randomly assorted words/riddles. Maybe Musical Notes ? If so, what kind of instrument ? )
( this info is based off the KickStarter Bio for Bards )
Back to the point, based on the above, i think a Summoner/Bard ... hmmm I suppose the only difference i can think of - is that the Summoned-Creatures's Characteristic's will have a " Balanced Combat-Effectiveness & Stats " . While having Burns / Periodic-Damage ?
or
Maybe the Summoned-Creatures' abilities will favor the Bard's "assumed" playstyle - just with further Emphasis on Periodic-Damage/Burns ?
idk tbh, I'd have to think about that more in-depth.
I envision this Hybrid to basically be similar to the Summoner summoning
"Spirit-Possessed Objects " - any kind of trinket / ornament:
an amulet, pendant , Certain-Gems, Relics, scribes/book(s) (?), etc ...And this might include Weapons too. But the Ornaments / Weapons won't actually be used , it'll just be used as a Sort of " Medium " to summon/conjure the Creature within the Object.
( after reading this, " Summon-Creature " seems similar to " Ghosts " now xD )
Again, i would have to think about >.< )
I would suppose this would fairly-reasonable the "KingdomHearts" character, " Sora " in his Final Form / Master Form. in other words,
the Combat-Style with this Hybrid would be fighting with " Levitating Swords " - never having to actually "Grasp" onto the Sword, but limited Swordsmanship.
(the Blades themselves will be Summons. Hence: the reason they'll be levitating)
So this'll most likely be a Mid-Range Combat-Style.
(only thing i don't like about this, is that ... it might be reminiscent to Hack-&-Slash. I personally don't like that. )
I think more could be done with this. The only thing i can think of atm, are Summons that has further Emphasis on Long-range.except with the use of
Summoned-Creatures - like " Magical-Hunting Animals " ?
idk, I'd have to think more on this too
I think this one would be kinda funny imo. The Summons will reflect a
Rouge-like player - constantly disappearing & reappearing. a Flurry of traps & deception ; constantly attacking the Blind-side of the target, or creating duplicates of itself and/or the User.
Which would probably favor Action-Combat more than Tab-Target.
( or at least how I envisioned it
One potential ability ... the Summoned-Creature granting the ability to allow it's User to be Enshrouded by an Aura - causing temporal invisibility in-combat
( ****almost like a Phantom / Phantasm**** )
But I won't delve any further than this >~<
My guess is that the Summoned-Creature's Presence will grant its User some defensive capabilities. Via Channeled-Abilities might grant Tanking-like abilities (but temporarily).
or
Summoner-Creature's Aura might enshroud it's User for Protection ? Idk,
Much to think about
my first thoughts of this " Pure-Archetype " would be access to every type of Summoned-Creature. Not necessarily outshining the other Hybrids, but basically:
the Utmost consistency & Moderate Versatility. Whereas, the Other hybrids, Utmost Versatility & Moderate Consistency - but both still being viable & unique.
So, this Pure-Archetype will have an Arsenal of Summons
( more so than the Hybrids )
Each Summoned-Creature having either a Prominence of Tanking, or DPS, or Heals. But won't be " Over-powered / unstoppable. "
( ****Hence " this " is why i preferred to be at least 2 - 3 Summons Useable for this Class, the " Summoned-Creatures' Combinations " will be like this:
" 2 Summons-Combinations "
DPS & Heals
DPS & Tank
Tank & Heals
or " Dittos "
DPS & DPS
Heals & Heals
Tank & Tank
same goes for the " 3 Summons-Combinations "
DPS, DPS, Heals,
Tank, Tank, heals
Heals, Heals, Tank
DPS, Heals, Tank
etc ...
& Dittos
DPS, DPS, DPS,
Heals, Heals,Heals
Tank, Tank, Tank
but this is also why i menition the Abilties also be divided in 1/2th or 1/3rd
(which can either be Hand-Picked and/or Random-Generated)
The important thing to note, is they won't be Over-Powered when they function in Unison. But, they won't be easy either.
( referring to how the " Combat-Effectiveness " will be divided based on the number of Summons currently present:
2 Summons = Combat-Effectiveness of both divided evenly by 1/2
3 Summons = Combat Effectiveness of all three divided evenly 1/3 )
However, because 1/3 = 33.33( infinite 3s )
it may have to be an even number
Such as extending the Limit to 4 summons. and Thus divided into 1/4
Most ideas I conjure-up is from what I've seen, and what the Hybrids-Archetype is best correlated to. And since the " General Combat-Style " is planned to be a Hybrid of Action-Combat & Tab-Target , i think everyone's view on the this Particular Archetype (the Summoner) is good to know - it might inspire a different idea.
(Including ideas for other Archetypes / Archetype-Hybrids too)
Another thing I really hope is that if a non-summoner main archetype chooses summoner as the sub archetype they do not get turned into a pet class through the use of some lesser summon. I think a lot of the summoner theme can also take the form of object conjuration like the levitating swords idea or conjuration of walls and other objects. I would prefer to see that kind of object conjuration or something mechanically similar to be the main benefits of summoner as a sub archetype.
Even though I said summoner/rouge = necro. That combo is really far-fetch.
Personally, I've only played necromancers. I never tried playing a summoner with only 1 summon. I'm not sure how other summoners will feel about having only 1 summon. I mean, yes, if I can summon 100 summons, I expect each one to be weak. But it adds an RTS play style vs 1 summon. Not saying 1 summon is bad or good, just that the play style is different. Though depending on how intricate the skill sets are for the summon and summoner, it could be a fun challenge controlling two characters simultaneously.
( so much so, that the Lesser-Summons will not be neglected even upon reaching higher-levels. I'd envisioned them to be used with certain Combinations of Greater-Summons & Elder-Summons (and vice versa with others ) ; hence, some will be good Combinations with others - regardless if DPS-Summon, Healer-Summon or Tank-Summon )
But i think i see what you mean - in some MMOs, they don't utilize this Class well enough
Glad you liked it, because that's one i had to think carefully on.
I've been meaning to ask, if the " 3rd Bar " , the Concentration Bar, is implemented - what would a Summoner do with the Mana ?
Similar to this post i made in another Thread:
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If these " Augments " function like how i think they will, then I'm speculating this:
1 Pure-Tank ( Tank/Tank ) = Classical Tank, more consistency, moderate versatility
1- 2 Primary-Tank-Hybrid ( Tank/ X ) = Viable Tank Role ,but slightly less Consistency
1- 2 ( maybe 3 ? ) Secondary-Hybrid-Tanks ( X /Tank ) = Viable Tank Role, but
more versatility, and moderate ( lesser ) Consistency.
my guess is the "X /Tank & Tank/ X " Hybrids will have to " Tank-Swap " more often ?
And this leads me to suggest the Raid-size limit ( if applicable ? )
Which might be five or six.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
( think you commented there ? )
but yes i agree
@lexmax
( and any others whom read my Previous Posts ... )
What do you think about the " Elemental Attribute " ?
Simply put, each Summon that a Summoner obtains ( regardless of how its achieved )
based on the Element Magic
Admittedly the idea derived from the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG Game
( Below Examples Top-Right )
These spirits or creations could be personified emotion or brought forth through ancient magic refined over thousands of years and guarded by those that understand that these aren't slaves or servants to do your bidding but rather a companion that resonates with what it is you hope to achieve in-game.
Using a stick to summon anything doesn't fit right. At least not for me.
Fundamentally a gate/portal is required to bring that which you are hoping to summon forth - so the question is how do you create the doorway? Spells are the easiest answer, but easy doesn't mean best.
Invoking magic by reciting words is casting a spell, when combined with a relic, or an item which connects you to the central source as a summoner could work.
Imagine that which deems you worthy of summoning is a summoned creation, brought forth at the beginning of time by the first summoner; who sacrificed all they had to bring forth a companion to share their creations with because why create eden when you have no one to share it with? As The Creator (first summoner) faded out of existence they looked upon the wonder glinting in the eyes of what they summoned.
The first summon (Loria to make it easier to follow) looked around in amazement at the beauty before them and turned to their side to catch the final moments of this beauty's creator - the first and last thing said between them was "You are the first, make sure more look at my world like you do" and he vanishes. From there Loria travels around, admiring, studying, and falling in love with this creation - eventually settling at the point where Loria came into existence.
I could write for hours, but the point is that the connection between the summoner and the summoned should require a fragment of the tragic loss and infinite joy experienced in that moment between Loria and the creator. So something like, Loria's tears, blood, soul, or similar items - perhaps items Loria left behind while traveling, letting you relive their journey around the world and gaining access to specific realms or planes of summoning.
A good idea would be Loria's tears summon a Sad/Blue/Water/Frost themed creature, her blood summons an Angry/Red/Fire/Magna themed creature.
I know that all above is a bit of a mess but I just had an idea and ran with it quickly, so I'm sorry for being a bit all over the place but I think at the heart of it it's important to approach things fundamentally first and then build on that. So, an emotional connection or circumstance can change what you can summon or allows you to summon more powerful versions of what you were already able to because you're in danger, or wounded, or under threat.