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How do you imagine the Summoner ?

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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Shirikuryu said:
    The primary/secondary class combo is interesting but it also limits off some notable classes that we've grown to love like the necromancer.

    Even though I said summoner/rouge = necro. That combo is really far-fetch.

    Personally, I've only played necromancers. I never tried playing a summoner with only 1 summon. I'm not sure how other summoners will feel about having only 1 summon. I mean, yes, if I can summon 100 summons, I expect each one to be weak. But it adds an RTS play style vs 1 summon. Not saying 1 summon is bad or good, just that the play style is different. Though depending on how intricate the skill sets are for the summon and summoner, it could be a fun challenge controlling two characters simultaneously.

    The necromancer in EQ1 only had 1 summon at a time.  As he became  higher level the type of summons he had access to changed.  At the high spectrum in eq1 you could summon pets which were more like assassins and able to backstab your enemies.  This was a wonderful addition because  fear kiting was a staple.  In dungeons I reverted to normal kiting but if your snare failed "good night irene". If your spells were resisted and your assassin  pet had to tank you were in trouble as higher level mobs shredded him quickly.

    I like the multiple summons aspect.  I like the concentration idea as well. If you have 1 big summon that you pamper he loves you and cost less to summon etc..  What if you summon a tandem together and they begin to form a type of cohesion to where they setup combos together?  The devs have said a combo system is in where players will be able to chain abilities together.  This could be an advantage of the pure summoner since he has access to a wider array of pets and the purity of the class allows him a higher level of concentration since its what he does more or less. 

    There have only been two games where I've thoroughly enjoyed  a pet class.  That was the necromancer in everquest and the summoner in allods online.







  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Just chiming in to say I like the idea of a need to explore in order to gain some summons. I like the idea of class quests to attain some of your skills even and the quest not necessarily being pointed out in big flashing letters.


    I hope that summoner feels epic and unique and not simply 'I summon my fire elemental and then do exactly the same thing the mage does except the fire balls originate 2 feet to my left instead of from my hands'.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    I agree a summoner needs its own flavor.  EQ had both the necromancer and the magician.  The necromancer summoned undead and the magician had elemental pets.  I hope the dual system is the same.  It gives the summoner a variety of flavors and makes it a fun class to play.  

    With the way rabbid I believe described how the dual class system works I don't think its going to be that different though.  He stated if you were a fighter you'd charge and bash and the mage/fighter would teleport and bash or something like that so we will have to get A LOT farther along before we can even begin to flesh things like this out.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    RibRab said:
    If you think about what is means to summon, then I think it requires an emotional connection. A catalyst between yourself and that which you are trying to summon - so for example a gentle and loving person can summon a protective and soothing spirit. 

    These spirits or creations could be personified emotion or brought forth through ancient magic refined over thousands of years and guarded by those that understand that these aren't slaves or servants to do your bidding but rather a companion that resonates with what it is you hope to achieve in-game.

    Using a stick to summon anything doesn't fit right. At least not for me. 

    Fundamentally a gate/portal is required to bring that which you are hoping to summon forth - so the question is how do you create the doorway? Spells are the easiest answer, but easy doesn't mean best.

    ...

    Invoking magic by reciting words is casting a spell, when combined with a relic, or an item which connects you to the central source as a summoner could work.

    Imagine that which deems you worthy of summoning is a summoned creation,  ...

     While i did like* the " on-the-spot " Fan-Story (: 3) , I also like the key points that you mentioned

    If the Summoner Class has more of a ... " Broad-Foundation " , then each idea for Summoning that Creature/ " Thing " could be furthered expressed by each Archetype-Blends. It won't Out-Class another Summoner
     ( regardless if its " Pure " Summoner or a Blend )

    But rather, it'll just be equally viable & still add more diversity to the Class Archetype Blends
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    @Dominus Kuuk

    After reading my idea for the Summoner/ Rouge , I think i was trying to emphasis it would be similar to a " Mystical-Phantom " Combat-Style

    (or Phantasm)

    While I am familiar with the term  Necromancer, I'm not quite on it. I like the idea, still unsure. I'll try to look into it more 

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Wanted to put this Post on this Thread ... but i think it could be a Thread in itself  :D

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/83548#Comment_83548

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    i want summoners to step on the scene like Naruto b4 he beat pains ass

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    @monolisk  Idk about that. but in general, I do like the Size-Proportions that's been showcased 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    I think it would be more interesting if the summoners weren't necessarily the conventional 'I choose you!' but more that they were very versatile fighters. They could summon specific weapons or defences depending on the situation.  Meaning you could have support summoners or fighting summoners.

    Support summoners would be able to conjure walls to defend their allies, create ladders out of thin air while trying to storm a castle or even piecing together an uncatchable chariot for a clean getaway!

    Combat summoners would be able to summon any weapon imaginable to aid them in their battle, send cannon balls hurling towards the enemy appearing for nowhere or protect entire armies with impenetrable armour shrouded in a fluorescent blue.

    Obviously, these ideas are slightly exaggerated and would be rather op if done to this scale but this is just an example to entice the thought of something different from the standard. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Zid said: " ... Support summoners would be able to conjure walls to defend their allies, create ladders out of thin air while trying to storm a castle or even piecing together an uncatchable chariot for a clean getaway!

    Combat summoners would be able to summon any weapon imaginable to aid them in their battle, send cannon balls hurling towards the enemy appearing for nowhere or protect entire armies with impenetrable armour shrouded in a fluorescent blue ... "
    Which Archetype do you think these 2 best suit ? 

    Fighter/ Summoner OR Summoner/ Fighter ?

    Because i mentioned something like thise in one of my older post  :) 
    In my opinion, i think Fighter/ Summoner should be similar to the
     " Gotei 13 from Bleach Anime "

    While the Summoner/ Fighter should similar to
     " KingdomHearts Sora's Master Form and/or Final Form "
    • Fighter/ Summoner emphasising more Swordsmanship & producing Energy Blade attacks ( i.e. the Weapon will be Summon )

    • While the Summoner/ Fighter will not have as much Swordsmanship, but Levitating-Swords. But trying its best to not be reminiscent to Hack-&-Slash - still maintaining Strategy 
    But this is just my Initial Thoughts, it may not be " that " much of a difference, but  sure do hope so  o:)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Most important thing if they did what FFXI summoner was a player with a gaint summon or shaman in wow with the elementels is to make sure the player is more important than the summon it self not the oppisit  what i hate about the summoners too that its only had 1 optimal summon and if the devs would have the summons have other purposes and reasons or hell even  resources to summon NOT just hey i want to summon you like a pokemon  and withdraw it back as i want oooooooh boy summoner will be a big deal!!!!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Chromo said:
    Most important thing if they did what FFXI summoner was a player with a gaint summon or shaman in wow with the elementels is to make sure the player is more important than the summon it self not the oppisit  what i hate about the summoners too that its only had 1 optimal summon and if the devs would have the summons have other purposes and reasons or hell even  resources to summon NOT just hey i want to summon you like a pokemon  and withdraw it back as i want oooooooh boy summoner will be a big deal!!!!
    Lols, I'm not sure what you are insinuating, but i never wanted Summoner to be similar like Pokemon. But Rather, the " Bonding between the Summon & Summoner "

    ( siimilar to what @Shirikuryu & I 1st mentioned. )

    I'd imagine Summons range from All Sizes. And for the Players Ability U.I Bar to be constantly changing - based on how many Summons currently in-active & and when Summoner is forced to  " exit combat  "

    ( via Time Gauge, Dies/ Faints, maybe other variables to consider ? )

    @Shirikuryu mentioned his " Concentration " idea. Which is more flexible ... but i still believe it could be abused ( #10-man-Zerg ) . But if possible ... i suppose the
      " Lesser Summons " would be considerably weak.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Banditman said:
    I like Summoners.  Played one in EQ2 for a long, long, ridiculously long time.  Everything that follows is just my opinion on what I'd like, and what I think would be fun and make sense.

    The first thing we need to know is what Intrepid intends.  I remember hearing in a live stream at some point that a Summoner in their world does a great portion of his work through his summoning.  They may even have said that some abilities on the Summoners hotbar would come from his pet.  In this respect, what Intrepid seems to intend is that the Summoner works with a pet that is more or less permanent and at the same time, it was greatly implied that the Summoner had one primary pet.

    Taking that as their intentions, here are some things I wouldn't mind seeing.

    I see Summoners as different than Necromancers.  A lot of people probably wouldn't agree.  It's the EQ2 in me.  Necromancers and Conjurors were both "Summoners" in EQ2, but had completely different skillsets.  I suppose if Intrepid wants them to be one class, ok, but it feels like they are so different it would make more sense to have two.

    In some ways, I like magic to make sense.  In that vein, a summoner should be using what is around him.  For example, a summoner standing in the middle of the desert shouldn't be capable of summoning a frost or water elemental, but could probably summon things like flame, earth and air elementals without issue.

    I would like different pets to have very different abilities and uses.  The earth pet perhaps is "tankier" while the air pet is more capable of damage.  You get the idea.  I think it's a given, but it needs to be thought through completely.

    A Summoner should always have access to a couple basic pets, where some might only be available in specific circumstances.  For example, a lava elemental might only be available near an active volcano, a frost elemental only available when the environment allows for frozen water, a lightning elemental only in outdoor environments during a rainstorm, etc.  The more the better.  Perhaps you need to visit certain NPC's to learn how to use some of the more exotic ones.

    In keeping with the above, a Summoner should probably have some sort of utility ability that allows him to ascertain what summons are available in his given area and the possible strength of such.  For instance, in swamp, a Summoner might see that he can summon water elementals of considerable strength, earth elementals of average strength, air elementals of average strength and weak fire elementals.  He might also notice the potential for different elementals that he does not yet have knowledge of, for instance a tar elemental in that swamp might show up to him as "Unknown elemental".

    If the pet is to be the conduit thru which a Summoner tends his craft, these pets need to have durability on par with players and proportional to their role.  Tank pets should be tough like tanky players.  DPS pets should be . . . untanky like a DPS player.  So forth and so on.  I've seen many cases where Summoner pets are the conduit, but for some reason are much more fragile than they should be.  Don't punish a Summoner for being a Summoner.

    Eragale said:
    Endrakan said:

    " ... Summoner/Summoner: I'm stumped here... something not covered by the others? "

    For this one, I had to type this Seperate:

    my first thoughts of this " Pure-Archetype " would be access to every type of Summoned-Creature. Not necessarily outshining the other Hybrids, but basically:

    the Utmost consistency & Moderate Versatility. Whereas, the Other hybrids, Utmost Versatility & Moderate Consistency - but both still being viable & unique.

    So, this Pure-Archetype will have an Arsenal of Summons

    ( more so than the Hybrids ) Each Summoned-Creature having either a Prominence of Tanking, or DPS, or Heals. But won't be

     Over-powered / unstoppable. 


    ( ****Hence " this " is why i preferred to be at least 2 - 3 Summons Useable for this Class, the " Summoned-Creatures' Combinations " will be like this: 

    DPS & Heals        
    DPS & Tank
    Tank & Heals
     
    or " Dittos "

    DPS & DPS
    Heals & Heals
    Tank & Tank

    same goes for the " 3-Combinations "

    DPS, DPS, Heals,
    Tank, Tank, heals
    Heals, Heals, Tank
    DPS, Heals, Tank
    etc ...

    & Dittos 

    DPS, DPS, DPS,
    Heals, Heals,Heals
    Tank, Tank, Tank

    but this is also why i menition the Abilties also be divided in 1/2th or 1/3rd
    (which can either be Hand-Picked and/or Random-Generated)

    The important thing to note, is they won't be Over-Powered when they function in Unison. But, they won't be easy either.

    ( referring to how the " Combat-Effectiveness " will be divided based on the number of Summons currently present:

    2 Summons = Combat-Effectiveness of both divided evenly by 1/2

    3 Summons = Combat Effectiveness of all three divided evenly 1/3 )

    However, because 1/3 = 33.33( infinite 3s )

    it may have to be an even number  :D:D:D:D

    Such as extending the Limit to 4 summons. and Thus divided into 1/4 


  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Both of these summoner threads have great ideas. I was a summoner player in EQ2 as well but I think the idea of summoning elementals should be in the Druids bag of tricks, after all nature is built from the elements. If the summoner is given this power perhaps the summoned elementals should be weeker than those of a Druid. I think the thing that should make a Summoner different is the number and strength of the beings he can summon based on his/her level and time spent summoning. The amount of energy put into the summons could be used as well thus giving a Trinity that would determine strength and number. A week Summoner could call a week swarm of bats to break the concentration of spell casting, effect the accuracy of a ranger, or confusing melee combattents inhibiting their armor class or damage output. At some point in leveling and power progression could summon a pack of large wolves or a group of other creatures to do DPS. Perhaps at a higher level something like a dungeon boss. A group of say 40 or 50 Summoners could summon a creature akin to a world boss as long as they are strong enough, can maintain concentration and not slain down bellow the number needed. These are just a few thoughts on how I see some of the basic trates of a Sommoner working. Any comments negative or not I would love to hear. Here's to a great game when it's finished.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    @Vanth ( Wanted to reply sooner, but wasn't sure what to say  :D )
    Vanth said:
    " ...  but I think the idea of summoning elementals should be in the Druids bag of tricks, ... "
    ,,, Rather than dividing them up by Elementals, I thought of Dividing them by 
    • Lesser-Summon
    • Greater-Summon
    • Elder-Summon
    ( And some in-between the 3 mentioned above )

    • I have thought of additional " terms ", but I've only thought of the Anime ...
    Which could lead to 
    • Lesser-Summon ( Low )
    • Lesser-Summon ( Mid )
    • Lesser Summon ( Upper )
    • Lesser-Summon ( High )
    • Greater Summon ( Low )
    • Greater-Summon ( Mid )
    • And so on 
    ( it'll be a variety of each - so much so, it'll be " category " )

    But honestly I'm kinda doubtful -  a Small " indie " Company, but Seasoned-Devs. In
    fact, I'm kinda concerned for Alpha Zero. Really hoping they'll be a Huge Gap in progress shown in Both " Alpha Zero & Alpha Phase 1 "

    If they need more time and extend the date ... that'll be good xD

    EDIT: How would you " Categorize " the Summons ?  :o

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Vanth said:
     " ... A group of say 40 or 50 Summoners could summon a creature akin to a world boss as long as they are strong enough, can maintain concentration and not slain down bellow the number needed... "
    "  Potential-troll-fest  " ? :D
    But kinda like the enthusiasm Xp
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    I think summoner should travel to demonic parts of the world and study the undead and demonic creatures. Once he learns about some creature enough, and completes all the prerequisites, he should become able to summon it.

    Summons shouldn't be limited to specific creatures. Any demonic or undead creature (besides bosses / very powerful special creatures) that summoner learns about should become summonable.

    Of course to balance the game all summons should have stats standardized, but the skin would remain of the creature summoner learned about.

    When summoner learns how to summon specific creature, only then would alternate skins for that creature become available in cash shop.

    So for example, summoner should not be able to buy/use alternate skeleton skins in CS, until he has actually learned to summon a skeleton type creature.



    Other then that summoner should have a variety of dark spells, like:

    - be able to heal his summoned creatures (ofc. this heal should be balanced and not OP)
    - he should be able to transfer his own health to creature, or creatures health to himself
    - sacrifice his summoned creature for a certain buff (which buff summoner gets would depend on which creature he has sacrificed) and then he would fight with buff but without creature
    - be able to select target of his creature attacks
    - his creatures would have few spells of their own, depending on creature type
    - he would be able to sacrifice his own health, to heal an ally
    - possibly sacrifice his own life to give special buff to party (if he got resurrected by an ally group buff would expire)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    That sounds more like a necromancer to me...
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    I think summoner should travel to demonic parts of the world and study the undead and demonic creatures. Once he learns about some creature enough, and completes all the prerequisites, he should become able to summon it.

    Summons shouldn't be limited to specific creatures. Any demonic or undead creature (besides bosses / very powerful special creatures) that summoner learns about should become summonable.

    Of course to balance the game all summons should have stats standardized, but the skin would remain of the creature summoner learned about.

    When summoner learns how to summon specific creature, only then would alternate skins for that creature become available in cash shop.

    So for example, summoner should not be able to buy/use alternate skeleton skins in CS, until he has actually learned to summon a skeleton type creature.



    Other then that summoner should have a variety of dark spells, like:

    - be able to heal his summoned creatures (ofc. this heal should be balanced and not OP)
    - he should be able to transfer his own health to creature, or creatures health to himself
    - sacrifice his summoned creature for a certain buff (which buff summoner gets would depend on which creature he has sacrificed) and then he would fight with buff but without creature
    - be able to select target of his creature attacks
    - his creatures would have few spells of their own, depending on creature type
    - he would be able to sacrifice his own health, to heal an ally
    - possibly sacrifice his own life to give special buff to party (if he got resurrected by an ally group buff would expire)
    That sounds more like a Necromancer to me...
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    @Gothix No - The Cash Shop will not play a role in this.

    Skins ? Just add those into the Game as " special versions " of the other Summons  with a different Skill-Set, smarter/ dumber A.I. and different combat-tactics 

    The more emphasis you put on the Cash Shop, the more the Cash Shop will take over the Entirety of the Game - no 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    What I would like to see with summoner:
    Combos that combine player spells with summon to create a unique effect and/or high damage.

    I like the idea of being able to heal your pet preferably like a HoT ( from summoner in FFXIV).
    Honestly, summoners from games such as ffxiv really emphasize the character and I wan't the focus to be on my summon. Weak, small summons are just a killer to the class (in my opinion). For me a summon that can tank, dps, or heal should look and feel as though they are fit for those roles.

    Another point would be to gain summons from the environment, like discovering an ancient scroll that lead to a once great demon beast. Being able to follow clues and go on a journey to discovering this great beast's location and how to bring him forth gain his favor build trust and respect and then gain skills to decimate your foes. Along with this I can agree that summons should be more than just pets that you use as "meat-shields" and through the repeated use of the summon allows them to gain x amount of skills through their leveling and lead into more combos with you.

    Continuing on with the combos if possible to have two summons at max being you went summoner/summoner the more you used a pair of summons they could perform combos with each other and say for an "ultimate" it's a tri-attack from the three of you.

    Just throwing in my 2 cents
         -Keithus 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    I think summoner should travel to demonic parts of the world and study the undead and demonic creatures. Once he learns about some creature enough, and completes all the prerequisites, he should become able to summon it.

    Summons shouldn't be limited to specific creatures. Any demonic or undead creature (besides bosses / very powerful special creatures) that summoner learns about should become summonable.

    Of course to balance the game all summons should have stats standardized, but the skin would remain of the creature summoner learned about.

    When summoner learns how to summon specific creature, only then would alternate skins for that creature become available in cash shop.

    So for example, summoner should not be able to buy/use alternate skeleton skins in CS, until he has actually learned to summon a skeleton type creature.



    Other then that summoner should have a variety of dark spells, like:

    - be able to heal his summoned creatures (ofc. this heal should be balanced and not OP)
    - he should be able to transfer his own health to creature, or creatures health to himself
    - sacrifice his summoned creature for a certain buff (which buff summoner gets would depend on which creature he has sacrificed) and then he would fight with buff but without creature
    - be able to select target of his creature attacks
    - his creatures would have few spells of their own, depending on creature type
    - he would be able to sacrifice his own health, to heal an ally
    - possibly sacrifice his own life to give special buff to party (if he got resurrected by an ally group buff would expire)
    Sweet ideas, but, like @Vanith said, they do seem to favor a necromancer style. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    I think some combinations of summoner won't even have a summoning. Maybe it will just use enchantments or auras from spirits or something simular. 

    The reason for this is because some summoners may tire of using pets after some years and the option to sacrifice that pet for extra power would be a welcome option for some summoners.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    In the latest Q&A from day 4 at PAX Steven does indeed drop some summoner gems and info. @Marzzo1337 is correct in that you will see summoners that are state/aura based vs pets only. The audio only Q&A begins at 00:45:00 and the video one at around hour 3 (sorry, didnt have the timestamp handy, searching yourself is good for building those internet skills).

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    @Marzzo1337
    I personally never liked the " Pet Summoner " style. It never felt like a true Summoner.

    With Intrepid vasts amount of experience, it really does seem anything is possible for Ashes of Creation - we just need to see the 1st iteration of  other 4 Archetype
    • In particular, for this thread, the Summoner Archetype
    before it gets into Alpha 1 and/or Alpha 2. Definitely before Beta 1 or Beta 2

    And I'd really like it if Intrepid is constructing this MMO in a relaxed & patient pace - that way, they can establish their fundamental-core-concepts ... Then optimizing that ; get into extreme detail & the technical-mechanics aspects - (hopefully) constructing a very flexible, robust and intricate combat system that'll be ( one of ) the things that helps retain Ashes' Player Base.

    I personally am looking forward for towards a balance between Hardcore combat system ... but not too hard to where it'll discourage newer players from learning it.
    • In specific, I'd hope for each Primary-Archetype to drastically differ in playstyle of the other Primary-Archetypes
    • And hoping that the Secondary-Archetype will further redefine those same-said drastic differences in the overall Archetype playstyle
    Thus having each 64 Archetypes literally feel like 64 different Archetypes/ classes to choose from. 
    • Which is why i hope they construct this MMO at a relaxed & calm pace - focusing the attention on the " small stuff " . Because over time, players will take notice


  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    @Marzzo1337
    In short, my response i made to @Endrakan
    are how I see each Summoner Archetype

    I'm just a little worried that Ashes Devs might make not do something like that. And could make the 64 Archetypes dull via too similar in playstyle
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Eragale said:
    @Marzzo1337
    In short, my response i made to @Endrakan
    are how I see each Summoner Archetype

    I'm just a little worried that Ashes Devs might make not do something like that. And could make the 64 Archetypes dull via too similar in playstyle
    This goes back to the 64 vs 8 classes.
    Are augments just flavour or something unique ?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    @Rune_Relic
    I'm hoping that what intrepid have stated so far are more like milestones.
    And hoping that they'll delve into it further by making Archetypes:
    • more Drastic changes to the overall Archetype
    • as opposed to Slight changes
    I think after they establish other fundamentals/ core-concepts/ the foundation of the MMO as a whole ... then they might reconsider

    ... If they have already  o:)o:)o:)o:)
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