Will the narrative allow us to be evil?

I don't mean like morally we're bad people I mean more like intrinsically we're spawned to do bad things and be bad people. I know breaking all the vases and pots in a house is morally questionable ,but typical in a gaming sense, I want to know if the narrative will allow me to do so maliciously.
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  • Zomnivore said:
    I don't mean like morally we're bad people I mean more like intrinsically we're spawned to do bad things and be bad people. I know breaking all the vases and pots in a house is morally questionable ,but typical in a gaming sense, I want to know if the narrative will allow me to do so maliciously.
    Sounds like it will be a possibility but there will be an associated Corruption which in turn will debuff the player in yet undefined ways.
  • @Zomnivore I hear you! PvP "corruption" is not what I am aiming for. I want to be a legit evil mage, not a PK ganker. I'm hoping IS will provide a PvE karma system to attune your character to the "dark side" or "light side" to suit your playstyle. 


  • Zomnivore said:
    I don't mean like morally we're bad people I mean more like intrinsically we're spawned to do bad things and be bad people. I know breaking all the vases and pots in a house is morally questionable ,but typical in a gaming sense, I want to know if the narrative will allow me to do so maliciously.
    Sort of like the Empire in TOR? Although most choices there just made you an asshole, not necessarily evil.
  • You will be able to gain corruption from other actions besides player ganking. I could see a benefit if say you were ignored/able to reside among the corrupted races. Until we get more details on corruption mechanics, its disadvantages, and how it is gained and how it is "cured" it is all just people spouting their opinions.
  • You will be able to gain corruption from other actions besides player ganking. I could see a benefit if say you were ignored/able to reside among the corrupted races. Until we get more details on corruption mechanics, its disadvantages, and how it is gained and how it is "cured" it is all just people spouting their opinions.
    I think they need to avoid using "corruption" to apply to PK ganking and to the "alignment" of a character and to the thing that drove the original population through the gateways. One word to describe three different things is pretty confusing in my opinion.
  • Yep, it all depends on whether corruption debuffs apply to all 3 of those. For example, the under realm race that we will be able to play. Does it have an innate susceptibility to "corruption", or a natural resistance? Does swimming in a corrupted lake give a lasting debuff or benefit? Lots of lore and mechanics for them to make final decisions on down the line.
  • I genuinely want to be a withered and evil Vek witch, please Sandal God bless me with this!
  • I actually have no clue what you mean.
    There is no such thing as being spawned to do bad things or spawned to be bad people.

    Ashes doesn't have an alignment system.
    But if you choose to be malicious, you can be malicious.
    When you want to be malicious.
    There will be limits to ensure that you aren't griefing other players.
  • @Dygz since there are no factions and no racial alignments there needs to be character alignments in terms of armor and weapon skinning, animations and effects. And I don't want to go to the cash shop to reskin my character just because I play an evil elf.
  • Wouldn't all problems be solved with factions?
    Your guild is tied to a faction and your faction legitimately wants the downfall of the other faction. So PKing people of the other faction won't influence your corruption as long as your level isn't too high compared to your opponent.
    Furthermore, you can create 'monster races' which are completely npc and tied to your faction. 
    For instance, the 'good' people will have the beastmen (more beast than men) as their allies, while the 'evil' will form a pact with the 'undead' race.

    Does this imply that we need a capital? No. It only implies that the member of your guild follows the same path as you otherwise it's too strange. And the node system prevents 'capitals' from existing >.> Unless those 2 HUGE guilds (different faction) build a metropolis each and it becomes the mainstream place to be afk. (Yeah, capital=afk for me)

    Does this imply faction related quest? Yes, you can take quests from 'undead' npc as an 'evil' person, for example. 

    However, this type of thing can lead to some problems which need to be discussed. Will the node be tied to the faction of the guild/alliance ruling it? If yes, then can people from other faction venture in its zone of influence without being chased like rabbits by guards or bounty hunters? What will happen if all 4 Metropolises are ruled by good/evil people?

    Anyway, I like the idea, however with the game as it is, and the fact that it seems that there will only be 10k people per servers I don't know if it is feasible while not breaking a certain balance somewhere.

  • @lexmax
    Maybe the fact that in each race you have two 'factions' which follow different principles can be considered as an alignment? xD
  • Waysm said:
    Wouldn't all problems be solved with factions?
    Your guild is tied to a faction and your faction legitimately wants the downfall of the other faction. So PKing people of the other faction won't influence your corruption as long as your level isn't too high compared to your opponent.
    Furthermore, you can create 'monster races' which are completely npc and tied to your faction. 
    For instance, the 'good' people will have the beastmen (more beast than men) as their allies, while the 'evil' will form a pact with the 'undead' race.

    Does this imply that we need a capital? No. It only implies that the member of your guild follows the same path as you otherwise it's too strange. And the node system prevents 'capitals' from existing >.> Unless those 2 HUGE guilds (different faction) build a metropolis each and it becomes the mainstream place to be afk. (Yeah, capital=afk for me)

    Does this imply faction related quest? Yes, you can take quests from 'undead' npc as an 'evil' person, for example. 

    However, this type of thing can lead to some problems which need to be discussed. Will the node be tied to the faction of the guild/alliance ruling it? If yes, then can people from other faction venture in its zone of influence without being chased like rabbits by guards or bounty hunters? What will happen if all 4 Metropolises are ruled by good/evil people?

    Anyway, I like the idea, however with the game as it is, and the fact that it seems that there will only be 10k people per servers I don't know if it is feasible while not breaking a certain balance somewhere.

    The only "faction" I want to see anywhere near this game should be entirely player inclusive and completely fluid. A large part of why I am interested in this game is because it's not a forced "Orcs Vs Humans" or "Blue Tree Country vs Red Rock Country" face stab extravaganza. It's a lot more (for lack of a better word) delicate than that. The fact that part of your experience is dealing with that diplomacy side in a way is what should make this game special.
  • Good and Evil~
    And their merits~
    People have argued through history as well as should~
    My philosophy~
    Any child could see~
    Good to evil and evil is....
    Good!

    Honestly I might make a character to the two I am already planning to maybe go a more "evil" direction, or I might make my already planned RP character "evil" in minds of some, because lets face it. A good evil character, is not evil themselves, but people think they are evil because their views do not match with those that proclaim themselves to be "good".

    It is all a matter of perspective of which side of the fence you sit on. Unless your a fence sitter. In that cause, you're probably Q or the cheese loving Daedra Prince, if you're more of an Elder Scrolls fan.
  • Yes, please no factions!
    Unfortunately @Zomnivore, I think if you want to be an "evil" mage you will have to RP the "evil" aspect more than not. I too would like an option to align my character, not with an alignment, to "evil" or "darker" armor/weapon/mount skins by default.

    If there was a "choose your default skin style; Good, Neutral, Evil" that prompted all found items to look in described manner that would be cool. But, I wouldn't want to have to do "evil" things constantly to prevent drifting away from an alignment.

    Although, if there will be "darker" and "brighter" armor and weapons to be found naturally in the game I would be okay too. Having a named set of evil armor or a known evil weapon would be a lot of fun.

    Hopefully craftsman characters can choose between those skins when they make their items. Someone could make evil armor/weapons, that would be awesome!

    ...or Evil loaves of bread...
  • If you want to play an evil character you'll need to do so in your own way.
    Firstly we don't know the lore of the non magic world we come from yet- so perhaps your characters morales might be influenced by aspects that have happened before passing the divine gates. 
    Our experience in Ashes is from the point of view of a first expedition team so whatever conflict etc that happened in the non magic world may influence your r character but also remember that all characters regardless of their background need to work together to learn and grow in the new magical world - which is all very new to us!
    If your character is evil - perhaps start an evil people guild and try to influence the politics of the game and dark means of controlling a node. ^^ Use your imagination ~~~
  • lexmax said:
    @Dygz since there are no factions and no racial alignments there needs to be character alignments in terms of armor and weapon skinning, animations and effects. And I don't want to go to the cash shop to reskin my character just because I play an evil elf.
    Armor and weapon skins don't have "alignments".
    Anyone can wear or wield armor that look wicked. That doesn't affect how a person behaves.

    We need to have skins that allow nagash to look like a lich.
    Wearing a lich skin doesn't mean that character must be evil or behave in an evil manner.

    I'm hoping we have animations for "Villainous Movement".
    Again, that wouldn't mean that using Villainous Movement makes the character inherently evil.

    Appearance has nothing to do with whether you play a evil elf.
    You can appear to be angelic and play an evil elf.
    You can appear to be demonic and play an evil elf.

    Of course we should hope and expect to see weapons and armor that have a "demonic" or "vampiric" appearance.
    In Ashes, we're very likely to see armor and weapons that have a "Corrupted" appearance because the lore is more focused on Corruption than it is "evil".
  • I think you are misunderstanding my point @Dygz. My point is about aesthetics. I want my evil elf to have evil animations, evil spell effects and evil skins. I am not going to be happy if the generic elf character (whether it be Empyrean or Py'rai) with generic appearance, animations and effects requires me to fork out money in the cash store to get the aesthetic I wish. I want this to be available in game. Other MMO's solve this problem with faction, race or class alignments. I very much like that Ashes does not have these! However, in their absence I want to be able to play an immersive evil character (by evil I do not mean a PK ganker or asshole, I mean fantasy evil) within the game mechanics and without paying RL coin.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @lexmax
    I know what you meant and I agreed/agree with you... for the most part.

    I disagree with you that animations and spell effects and skins can actually have alignment.
    They can be "dark", they can be "villainous", the can be "demonic" or "vampiric" or "shadow" in appearance. 
    Neither Angelic skins nor Demonic skins have alignment.
    It's the individual people who are evil. Evil is a behavior. And what constitutes evil behavior is subjective.

    In Ashes, Corruption is not merely about PKing. In Ashes, Corruption is a fundamental infestation that plagues the world.
    So, the "dark", "twisted" appearances you are thinking of are more likely to be reflective of Corruption in Ashes lore than reflective of evil.

    Ashes should include armor and weapons that appear to be "heroic" and armor and weapons that appear to be "villainous".
    Ashes should include armor and weapons that appear to be "light" and armor and weapons that appear to be "dark".
    Crafters should be able to craft that range of gear.

    Players should be able to choose a range of expressions during character creation from "happy" smiles to "angry" grimaces.
    (One thing I learned from the last King Kong is you never want a Samuel Jackson character to smile at you.)

    But, whether a character is evil is up to the individual player.
    The game doesn't decide that.
    You can appear any way you want - that doesn't mean your character must behave according to the character's appearance.

    You were the one who said, "there needs to be character alignments in terms of armor and weapon skinning". So I responded to that.
    Neither Angelic skins nor Demonic skins have alignment.
    If we have skins for armor and weapons with a "light/heroic/angelic" appearance, we should also have skins for armor and weapons with a "dark/villainous/demonic" appearance.
    Expect that there will also be skins for armor and weapon that reflect Corruption - not the gear that indicates someone is a PK ganker, rather gear that is representative of the Corruption which has twisted the world of Ashes.
    The appearance should not dictate how the characters using that gear behave.
    Individual players can decide whether their characters match the appearance of their gear or not.
    But, if you don't want to purchase armor and weapon skins, you should be able to obtain all of the above from crafting as well.

    The type of appearance you will likely have to purchase as a skin, rather than acquiring during character creation, is something like a Lich.
    But, wearing a Lich skin doesn't mean that the character wearing that skin is evil.
    Just as wearing a Demonic skin or an Elemental skin doesn't mean that character is evil.
    Just as wearing an Angelic skin doesn't mean the character isn't evil.
  • @Dygz, again I am not talking about a "RP" type alignment as you seem to insist I am. I will say once again, I am talking about aesthetic alignment. To break it down for you, when I play World of Warcraft, I get to choose between Horde and Alliance. I could look like a shiny cute blue guy, or a gnarled and devilishly red guy. I know for a fact that Horde players aren't necessarily evil and Alliance players aren't necessarily good. What I do want from my alignment choice is the aesthetic of "good" or "evil". We don't have that in Ashes. Yes, I could try to cobble together a gear set and skins from far and wide, maybe there will be good vs evil spell animations somewhere in a chest under a mountain. This kind of unobtanium crap will force people to the cash shop. I do not want this. I want to start of evil and stay evil. That is my immersion and you can argue as much as you want, but you cannot change my definition of how I want the game to play!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @lexmax
    I don't understand why you keep trying to act like we disagree.
    I'm pretty sure I said everything you just did.
    I just don't agree that the proper labels for the aesthetics are "good" and "evil".

    Horde characters aren't necessarily evil and Alliance characters aren't necessarily good.
  • Dygz said:
    I don't understand why you keep trying to act like we disagree.
    Because you say things like...

    The type of appearance you will likely have to purchase as a skin, rather than acquiring during character creation, is something like a Lich.
    But, wearing a Lich skin doesn't mean that the character wearing that skin is evil.
    Just as wearing a Demonic skin or an Elemental skin doesn't mean that character is evil.
    Just as wearing an Angelic skin doesn't mean the character isn't evil.
    Which leads me to think you misunderstood my point about RP vs aesthetic alignment. Sorry if I misunderstood you! :)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @lexmark
    Right. Again, you were the one who mentioned skins, so I have also addressed skins.
    Aesthetics don't have alignments.
    The devs should not be referring to "dark", "demonic" or "necromantic" aesthetics as evil.

    But, you should not have to rely on skins in order to give your character the aesthetics your asking for - regardless of how you choose to label them.
    You should be able to find sneers and grimaces and snarls in character creation - if that's what you're looking for. Regardless of whether that character is good or evil.
    And any character should be able to acquire "dark", "demonic", "vampiric" or Corrupted armor and weapons via crafting or vendor without players needing to purchase them in a cash shop.

    You can label that evil if you wish.
    I'm saying the devs should not be referring to that as evil.
    Because none of that should be intrinsically evil.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Nevermuse said:
    Waysm said:
    Wouldn't all problems be solved with factions?
    Your guild is tied to a faction and your faction legitimately wants the downfall of the other faction. So PKing people of the other faction won't influence your corruption as long as your level isn't too high compared to your opponent.
    Furthermore, you can create 'monster races' which are completely npc and tied to your faction. 
    For instance, the 'good' people will have the beastmen (more beast than men) as their allies, while the 'evil' will form a pact with the 'undead' race.

    Does this imply that we need a capital? No. It only implies that the member of your guild follows the same path as you otherwise it's too strange. And the node system prevents 'capitals' from existing >.> Unless those 2 HUGE guilds (different faction) build a metropolis each and it becomes the mainstream place to be afk. (Yeah, capital=afk for me)

    Does this imply faction related quest? Yes, you can take quests from 'undead' npc as an 'evil' person, for example. 

    However, this type of thing can lead to some problems which need to be discussed. Will the node be tied to the faction of the guild/alliance ruling it? If yes, then can people from other faction venture in its zone of influence without being chased like rabbits by guards or bounty hunters? What will happen if all 4 Metropolises are ruled by good/evil people?

    Anyway, I like the idea, however with the game as it is, and the fact that it seems that there will only be 10k people per servers I don't know if it is feasible while not breaking a certain balance somewhere.

    The only "faction" I want to see anywhere near this game should be entirely player inclusive and completely fluid. A large part of why I am interested in this game is because it's not a forced "Orcs Vs Humans" or "Blue Tree Country vs Red Rock Country" face stab extravaganza. It's a lot more (for lack of a better word) delicate than that. The fact that part of your experience is dealing with that diplomacy side in a way is what should make this game special.
    I couldn't agree more. The fact that there are no factions and open world PvP means you have to think about who you are attacking. Everybody you murder is a potential ally. You never know who you may need in the future. You don't want to burn too many bridges in a game like this.

    Say you are walking along and you see somebody gathering Ore. You murder that person and take his/her stuff. Next thing you know that person is a master at his/her profession and is known for their high quality materials he/she sells. Now they remember you and mark up their product because you murdered them in the past.
  • Hahlp! We need a TLDR! 
  • It really is much simpler and requires less thought than is being used in this post.  As factions will be player made and diplomacy will be used between groups and people are involved which means diplomacy will inevitably break down between groups.

    If you want to feel evil, travel to the ZOI for a node controlled by a group that has diplomatic friction with your group.  Trust me, they will assign no end of nefarious thoughts and deeds to you.

    If you want to look dark and foreboding find a crafter with the patterns you like and visit a dye station or have them custom make the colours you want if artisans can control colour.  I guess this presupposes a dye station and although dyes are confirmed the method of using them is not.
  • Marenor said:
    It really is much simpler and requires less thought than is being used in this post.  As factions will be player made and diplomacy will be used between groups and people are involved which means diplomacy will inevitably break down between groups.

    If you want to feel evil, travel to the ZOI for a node controlled by a group that has diplomatic friction with your group.  Trust me, they will assign no end of nefarious thoughts and deeds to you.

    If you want to look dark and foreboding find a crafter with the patterns you like and visit a dye station or have them custom make the colours you want if artisans can control colour.  I guess this presupposes a dye station and although dyes are confirmed the method of using them is not.
    The OP's original point was to look evil, not to be evil. Because there are no factions or alignments in Ashes, I want there to be a way to do this without having to spend coin at the cash shop or becoming a PK ganker. Dies may be one way to do it, but can they affect animations and spell FX? 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @lexmax I understood what you said. You want to be able to make your character look and feel evil/malicious (not that it necessarily would be evil) etc without having to pay for it in the cosmetic shop.

    They just didn't understand what you meant about aesthetic alignment. Probably thought you meant that you would need to be evil, or good, to wear said gear, even though I thought you perfectly made your point clear. Also, I think it'll be like how Dygz says, you'll be able to tailor your look ingame by crafting gear that matches what you want it to be. And we don't know how robust the character creator will be, maybe you'll be able to create interesting appaearences with it.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    I understand what lemax wants and support his desire wholeheartedly.
    But, aesthetics don't have an alignment.

    A Necromancer is going to want weapons and armor that reflect being a necromancer.
    A Death Knight is going to want weapons and armor that reflect being a Death Knight.
    But, death magic isn't inherently evil. And the weapons and armor that reflect the use of death magic aren't inherently evil.
    Black armor with skulls and blood as motifs is not an evil aesthetic. 
    lexmax might decide that aesthetic best matches his evil elf.
    Someone else might decide that aesthetic best matches their good elf.
  • Dygz said:
    I understand what lemax wants and support his desire wholeheartedly.
    But, aesthetics don't have an alignment.

    A Necromancer is going to want weapons and armor that reflect being a necromancer.
    A Death Knight is going to want weapons and armor that reflect being Death Knight.
    But, death magic isn't inherently evil. And the weapons and armor that reflect the use of death magic aren't inherently evil.
    Black armor with skulls and blood as motifs is not an evil aesthetic. 
    lexmax might decide that that aesthetic best matches his evil elf.
    Someone else might decide that aesthetic best matches their good elf.
    He used the wrong word yeah. He probably should've used something different than alignment, like theme. That's from what I can understand is what he wants. Aesthetics with different themes.
  • The two new pics of the the staff and the glove reminded me - the armor colors are supposed to be determined by the race.
    And then we should be able to dye them.

    Has me wondering sets might look like once they're dyed.
    Especially ones that might be blood-stained...would we be able to dye the color of blood?

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