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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Minimal to No Gear Loot Drops as an option...
ArchivedUser
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Hello Ashes Community!
I don't usually start threads, as I'm content to peruse those topics that interest me, put forth by others. But, with the recently released blog about Looting Rules, and @lexmax's subsequent threads addressing the possible pitfalls of Intrepid's looting mechanics, something else has been troubling me. (@lexmax's threads are a great read, and I endorse reading them)
In a game where player-driven markets ideally play an integral within the games core mechanics, how will that role correlate with Intrepids desire to have gear drops in dungeons?
This issue may have been brought up before, I'm sure. But, in light of recent events, I would like to revisit it. I understand the reasoning behind gear drops in dungeons/raids/world bosses. Over the years, it's become such a core mechanic of most games, MMO or otherwise, that not having it would seem exceedingly odd, at best. Needlessly punishing/prohibitive, at worst.
And, the reasons for having gear as loot drops is many. It's reward for the effort involved, it's provides that much anticipated endorphin rush, etc etc etc. Plus, honestly speaking, if you're storming a dragons lair, or the tower of a mad wizard, they HAVE to have some kind of mythical armor, or weapon, lying about, right!? More importantly, in most games, it's generally just easier, and more fun, to dungeon delve for gear , as opposed to crafting it. In my experience, crafted gear was a niche option, usually for those who were going for a particular look, aesthetics-wise.
And, that's the problem I hope Ashes avoids. Most people...not all, but most...tend to go the path of least resistance. If loot drops prove an easier route to getting geared, over the usually arduous process of crafting, than what makes armor/weapon craftsmen truly viable?...besides as just gear repairers.
It's early in the process, and there's still a lot we don't know about the game. I also understand there is no "global market", which is an excellent decision, for many reasons. But, how will Intrepid insure that craftsmen/markets stay viable, and balanced, in regards to dungeon loot? Will crafted gear have a significant edge, over drops? Will gear drops be tuned so that getting crafted gear is easily the more desirable option, because of the scarcity of drops?
I know I'm probably in the minority with what I'm about to say, but I honestly wouldn't mind EXCEEDINGLY rare, to no, gear drops at all. That's a surefire way of making crafting paramount. I believe drops can still be epic, such as super rare materials, exclusive recipe's...maybe even an antiquated/dilapidated weapon, or piece of armor, that has to be restored through exhaustive means, to be brought back to full glory. Granted, it delays immediate gratification, but it's always been about the journey, as much as the destination, for me.
I'm curious what other's think, though. I hope to hear some feedback. Thanks, everyone!
Edit: Changed thread title to better reflect my opinion/thoughts.
I don't usually start threads, as I'm content to peruse those topics that interest me, put forth by others. But, with the recently released blog about Looting Rules, and @lexmax's subsequent threads addressing the possible pitfalls of Intrepid's looting mechanics, something else has been troubling me. (@lexmax's threads are a great read, and I endorse reading them)
In a game where player-driven markets ideally play an integral within the games core mechanics, how will that role correlate with Intrepids desire to have gear drops in dungeons?
This issue may have been brought up before, I'm sure. But, in light of recent events, I would like to revisit it. I understand the reasoning behind gear drops in dungeons/raids/world bosses. Over the years, it's become such a core mechanic of most games, MMO or otherwise, that not having it would seem exceedingly odd, at best. Needlessly punishing/prohibitive, at worst.
And, the reasons for having gear as loot drops is many. It's reward for the effort involved, it's provides that much anticipated endorphin rush, etc etc etc. Plus, honestly speaking, if you're storming a dragons lair, or the tower of a mad wizard, they HAVE to have some kind of mythical armor, or weapon, lying about, right!? More importantly, in most games, it's generally just easier, and more fun, to dungeon delve for gear , as opposed to crafting it. In my experience, crafted gear was a niche option, usually for those who were going for a particular look, aesthetics-wise.
And, that's the problem I hope Ashes avoids. Most people...not all, but most...tend to go the path of least resistance. If loot drops prove an easier route to getting geared, over the usually arduous process of crafting, than what makes armor/weapon craftsmen truly viable?...besides as just gear repairers.
It's early in the process, and there's still a lot we don't know about the game. I also understand there is no "global market", which is an excellent decision, for many reasons. But, how will Intrepid insure that craftsmen/markets stay viable, and balanced, in regards to dungeon loot? Will crafted gear have a significant edge, over drops? Will gear drops be tuned so that getting crafted gear is easily the more desirable option, because of the scarcity of drops?
I know I'm probably in the minority with what I'm about to say, but I honestly wouldn't mind EXCEEDINGLY rare, to no, gear drops at all. That's a surefire way of making crafting paramount. I believe drops can still be epic, such as super rare materials, exclusive recipe's...maybe even an antiquated/dilapidated weapon, or piece of armor, that has to be restored through exhaustive means, to be brought back to full glory. Granted, it delays immediate gratification, but it's always been about the journey, as much as the destination, for me.
I'm curious what other's think, though. I hope to hear some feedback. Thanks, everyone!
Edit: Changed thread title to better reflect my opinion/thoughts.
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I also think you are ignoring that to get the best gear, steven has said we will need to break down dungeon loot and re-craft it. It sounds like there will be more to gear then an item level. They have said there will be a lot of different bonuses on gear like passive and set bonuses. I don't think you can pick your bonuses with dungeon drops but I'm pretty sure steven said crafters can pick what bonuses go on the gear they craft. This is one of the ways they are making crafted gear viable as you will need crafts to perfect your build.
One person may easily find a group with their friends, run a bunch of dungeons and gear themselves out.
Another player may not always have time/group to run through a dungeon without being over geared for it, yet the small pockets of time they are on could be profitable, meaning they don't mind so much throwing currency away on crafted gear as their path of least resistance.
All enemies drop materials instead of flat out equipment.
Enemies that do drop equipment will only drop what they would realistically be wearing or holding. These will always be lower stats than a refined and well polished weapon/armour.
I'm still heavily in favour of all ingredients and materials can come with random traits and effects and can be put together in a system similar to the Atelier series games.
This will mean all weapons will be somewhat unique with varying bonus' and stats. The higher quality of ingredients used in production; as well as players with higher skill level crafting will be the ones that can produce the best weapons.
This will mean players that want to fight high level monsters will rely on other players to craft weapons for them. At the same time, dedicated crafters will need to rely on dungeon raiding players to provide the highest quality materials.
It means market prices will constantly fluctuate for different items depending on what traits the items have.
The only time equipment should be found should be in treasure chests, preferably from the treasure hunts that they mentioned before.
I know that there won't be item level, in relation to gear. I do remember the devs talking about deconstructing gear, and "dials" for crafted gear. These may prove to be deterrents to looking at gear drops as a primary option.
I do believe, though, that whether one has copious amounts of time to play, or very little, that time could be invested in either adventuring for crafting materials (if you have the time), or buying craft materials/crafted gear (if little time is available), whichever suits your lifestyle.
But, of course, that's just a personal opinion. Just kind of burned out on games prioritizing gear-drop loot, as an optimal means of advancement. And, it's been burned into our psyches, as players. My worries may be needless, and I hope they are.
I also like your idea, @Fanzhon! It really appeals to me. Actually, I like your idea, combined with the mechanic @lexmax introduced! The best of both worlds, imo!
BTW @freespiryt you've taken the words right out of my mouth with this thread well done
Make it so that over time it loses its strengths, losing armour every time you repair, stats. That way, you won't easily have the economy flooded with gear. Just a thought.
What I would personally prefer more is simply don't give gear too much stats.
Bit of speculation here here but this is how I see it going...
Gear drops : Have fixed stats appropriate for the level of that dungeon/boss etc. They have a small chance to give a recipe for the gear when salvaged.
Crafter gear : Have stats appropriate to the recipe and can be fine tuned appropriately to a players perosnal playstyle.
Now we know Gear comes in tiers so I imagine that crafted gear can be improved over time to increase their tiers.
Will this be available for dropped gear?
I imagine not unless someone is lucky enough to get the recipe in which case they can craft or or rent the recipe out and alllow crafters to start upgrading it through tiers.
This mean that those that don't want to go into crafting can "farm" recipes to rent out which is allows them to get the gear they want and buy it back off of a crafter.
This should keep the relationship between raiders/dungeons runners and crafters healthy.
But then again this gives different issues.
Would this system cause less raids/dungeons to happen - especially once the recipes are discovered and shared?
I hope that raids and dungeons have some form of interactive relationship with the external world - whether it's through seasons, node development, triggered events, which keep the raids/dungeons changing so instead of getting brand new dungeons zones all the time - our same dungeons are forced to change visually and with their loot to keep everything unique/rotaioned.
This could keep a cycle going for different recipes for gear (aesthetics too), and recipes for other things too like potions, freehold items, ships...
And keeps the mobs rotated so different materials are available at different times.
Ramble over - maybe this would work maybe not xD This is why I'm a forum user and not a game developer aha
A world combined - Harmony of crafting and adventuring
Why not have base gear molds (of certain item level and quality) drop from bosses, but then requiring this mold to be shaped into final piece by crafting?
Then when you have a final piece, that piece could be further slotted by certain augments available through various sources.
(augment suggestion here)
I'm sorry but all I can read is: "So you're casual and you don't have that much time to farm money/gathering/crafting while questing/dungeons/exploring? Then you're going to stay naked for 70% of the game."
(Edit)
Anyway, I understand your concern but this is will just force casual to do something they wish not to do either right now or never. They should be penalized by not having the finest gears but not by having nothing.
Will gear degrade and break?
That said, I'm not sure how not having abundant gear drops, equates to 70% game nakedness. Whether casual, or hardcore, when adventuring, players will be able to naturally accrue money/items. Those items could either be used to earn more money, by selling them, or use in crafting gear (in the case of raw materials).
Someone who plays the game constantly is going to progress quicker than someone who plays less, regardless. Gear dropping, or not, isn't going to change that. But, imo, having "no gear drops" would facilitate more crafts being made and put up for sell, locally, meaning that players can get gear more readily, since crafting would be even more of a focus.
Monster Hunter style games seem to be fine with just collecting materials and upgrading. I know lots of people that play Monster Hunter style games casually. It just means things take longer and it's all dependent on how much time you are willing to put in.
Maybe all gear dropped in dungeons will also need to be 'made usable again' by crafters for similar lore-ish reasons and it will be a comparable process to making gear from scratch.
Some games throw so much gear at you that you can live off of just vendoring them. Killed that random wolf that looks like all the others? Woot you managed to pull a claymore of greater strength out of it. Also, your reward for killing 5 wolves, a claymore of greater strength. Oh also, you are playing a mage.
So how do we entice both the crafters and the dungeon-delvers?
I honestly think crafters should make the bulk of everything in the game but allow for very distinct items to come out of dungeons. Special pets that are only found in the lair of a beast. Special armor with a shadowy aura or fog effect from a necromancer's stronghold. There are so many creative things that can be found in the world while still giving crafters the power and demand they crave.
To meld the two ideas together would require an additional modifier list for recommended artisan class distribution. Then you will have an individual looting system that gives out crafting materials on a scaled individual basis. I think it would be an awesome combo
I've just modified my proposal to incorporate a crafting oriented drop system. Let me know what you think
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/34643/proposal-scaled-individual-loot-system/p1
Loved your previous version of your loot mechanic...love this new version even more, lol! What I love the most is it's extreme adaptability to on-the-fly changes, while still maintaining core integrity!
I've never liked that distinction, by the way. It draws an imaginary line in the community, that creates needles division. Players are players, whether they play a little, or a lot. The more you invest...in anything...of course you will get more in return, usually. The problem comes in how to balance this, with making sure that others with less playing time, don't feel left behind, so to speak, without indulging in instant gratification.
There needs to be an element of the unattainable long term project and the edge of the horizon back in the genre.
It might be unpopular to a specific audience who have become accustomed to handouts. But I feel the genre would be a healthier game without handout systems.
Though I agree that games have become more or less homogenized, Ashes has a chance to begin to wean players'. away from the instant gratification mindset, by taking small steps away from the "norm".
Somehow I find this kind of tail chasing paradox strangely appealing
The problem with that, you see, is that assumes an ideal world where citizens are 100% loyal to the node and can't (or won't) change citizenship.
Let me tell you, people are greedy creatures, they will betray even their own families often, let alone their virtual guilds or their virtual nodes.
So you would have crafters put in the work, to gear up the players that will potentially hop on to support the next node as soon as better opportunity is presented to them?
This only brings the memories of naive guild leaderships that always geared their tanks first (hoping to be better at raids) only to have those tanks hop to the next guild once they were all geared up and now that guild was not good enough for them anymore (this happened so often that one must ask himself how can any guild leadership be stupid enough to repeat this same mistake over and over).
Thus, I say everyone is responsible for their own gearing up. Alliances and affiliations are temporary more often then not. Specially when random internet people are involved.