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How much should marketplace TAX be?

Depending on how many items you place on it...
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    Tax rates are set by the node's government, so I think this will vary from node to node.

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/node-series-part-2-metropolis/
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I voted progressive, because that would encourage you to travel to different locations and put your stuff there too.

    Would be most profitable to put up to 5 items on each separate marketplace.

    Therefore also further encouraging caravan travel.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    lexmax said:
    Tax rates are set by the node's government, so I think this will vary from node to node.

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/node-series-part-2-metropolis/
    Perhaps base tax could be set by mechanics, and governments could add an extra tax by their own desire, or no tax (then only the basic mechanics tax would remain).

    For example if progressive tax was base tax, and it costs 5% more for each 5 next items, then government adds 5% fixed on top of that it would be 10%, 15%, 20%... and if government chooses to add no tax it would be 5%, 10%, 15%...

    I would love for base tax to be progressive, so it encourages travel, and placing your stuff on several marketplaces.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    No taxation without representation!!!!

    Don't tread on me, down with the British!!!!


    Sorry, American Reflex.
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    Like lexmax said. Taxes are set by the local ruler.
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    It remains to be seen what the benefits of renting market stalls in the center of a town will be. Last info I saw was that they would need to be actively manned. If that has changed throw a quote. If I am standing there advertising my goods, I will offer direct trades, and cut the tax man right out of the loop. If they are load em up and go, and you are taxed on sales from your vendor, I will offer custom order by email service, cutting out the tax man again.
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    Last info I saw was that they would need to be actively manned. If that has changed throw a quote. 
    Stalls can be rented by players to sell their goods while offline.

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/88629/#Comment_88629
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    Thanks @lexmax
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    I think 5% tax is more than enough to be honest unless your forced to pay more which you might be
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    yay, im a special snowflake!
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I think it should be decided by the node government
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    NO TAXATION WIFFOUT REPRESENTATION *throws tea*
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    Auction house tax was always a great gold sink. I depends just on to much interconnected stuff of how the game works to just throw out a wild number.
    I think 10% gold sink unusable tax is fine so a node can still add on 5 to 10% tax to use for development of the node.
    Why so ever a bulk of items would be taxed higher I don't really understand. In my opinion it should be the other way around. People should travel to the node to get local ingredients. It should benefit the node first and a trade who wants to make a buck 2nd.

    Heck I would even go for travel tax benefit to even out the scale a bit. The further away you sell the less gold node tax you have to pay (or not depending on what the node government decides)since it benefits the node in a different way. Taxing stacks of items higher feels as if it's working against how Ashes presents itself (local importance/markets/veins of metal and stuff).
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    I'm the Anti-Tax man, I hate to waste money on the tax!
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    No tax
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    Surely any progressive taxation would discourage players from using the system much and by default reduce the potential quantity of items up for sales.

    If any such system, on top of the governmental tax was applied, would it not create more incentive to use if it was inverse progressive; ie the more items you put up for sale, the lesser tax you incurred.

    Quantity should not ignore quality, someone who posts one expensive items vs someone who posts dozens of cheap items.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I pay enough tax in real life. I dont need another tax!!
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    as long as its not that mess like ESO Im fine wiht whatever.. needing to find a merchant that sells the one item I cant find is horrendous.. That's a deal breaker for me.. no AH and I'm out.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    lexmax said:
    Tax rates are set by the node's government, so I think this will vary from node to node.

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/node-series-part-2-metropolis/
    @lexmax is right and if done right the taxes won't be too high or too low.  Competition between nodes is to be expected and any competent leader of a node is  going to want to keep his citizens happy and make a profit which only benefits the entire node in the long run by being able to afford defenses more building options and building maintenance.   
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    Node leaders should be able to set it within a range like ~5~25%. All sales get charged tax.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    CylverRayne said:

    @lexmax is right and if done right the taxes won't be too high or too low.  Competition between nodes is to be expected and any competent leader of a node is  going to want to keep his citizens happy and make a profit which only benefits the entire node in the long run by being able to afford defenses more building options and building maintenance.   
    Just a note that this issue however isn't connected only with citizens of particular node, because any player can (afaik) use any nodes AH. This means you can be officially citizen of one node, but use another nodes AH if you are not happy with taxes. So just to say that government of a node should keep taxes fair, so all people (both citizens and visitors) do not go and use another nodes AH services. Still could be interesting to see ability to set taxes differently for citizens and visitors. Only then would tax politics have real influence on how many players wish be citizen of particular node.


    I personally voted on progressive rates to help fight AH bots, that would automatically want to buy and sell large amount of items.

    This is why I would increase tax after certain threshold (amount of items currently on AH). It would fight AH bots, and encourage players to use various AHs instead of only single one, incentivizing travel, which adds to PvP environment with risk / profit.

    "Number of item" threshold and % increase could be discussed, and this could be set as base for every AH, and then node governments could add its own fixed tax IF they wish, and how much they wish.
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    Gothix said:
    Just a note that this issue however isn't connected only with citizens of particular node, because any player can (afaik) use any nodes AH. This means you can be officially citizen of one node, but use another nodes AH if you are not happy with taxes. So just to say that government of a node should keep taxes fair, so all people (both citizens and visitors) do not go and use another nodes AH services. Still could be interesting to see ability to set taxes differently for citizens and visitors. Only then would tax politics have real influence on how many players wish be citizen of particular node.


    I personally voted on progressive rates to help fight AH bots, that would automatically want to buy and sell large amount of items.

    This is why I would increase tax after certain threshold (amount of items currently on AH). It would fight AH bots, and encourage players to use various AHs instead of only single one, incentivizing travel, which adds to PvP environment with risk / profit.

    "Number of item" threshold and % increase could be discussed, and this could be set as base for every AH, and then node governments could add its own fixed tax IF they wish, and how much they wish.
    "Once the node reaches the Metropolis level, a shared auction house will be available. The auction house will be shared with all nodes in the Metropolis' zone of influence."  

    So there is no need to travel to the other nodes in your zone unless you go to another metropolis area which in turn might be one  owned by hostiles.   

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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    CylverRayne said:

    Once the node reaches the Metropolis level, a shared auction house will be available. The auction house will be shared with all nodes in the Metropolis' zone of influence."  

    So there is no need to travel to the other nodes in your zone unless you go to another metropolis area which in turn might be one  owned by hostiles.   

    Exactly, just like you wrote "there is no need to travel to the other nodes"... and that's just lame. Would be a lot more interesting if there was need to travel.
     
    And there COULD be (monetary) reason if tax was progressive. That's my point.
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    I believe that the shared Auction House is limited to Economic nodes.  So unless your local metropolis is an Economic node then travel would be necessary.

    The tax on item sales tends to be just a gold sink for games.  If the tax were to be progressive, the ranges for the number of items would need to be much larger.  Many players will move above those ranges quickly, including crafters and those that run dungeons frequently, and could easily be at the max tax rate all the time.  With the massive variations in the OP that would disincentivize many playstyles.  Also, the numbers provided may reduce the use of caravans for finished items and increase the lot sizes for raw or processed goods.  If my tax goes up for an amount of items that I could carry to an Auction House, why would I risk a caravan for my finished goods?  If I have 5000 ingots to sell, why would I not sell them in lots of 1000 when 250 or 100 lot sizes may be the optimal amount for a player?  Also tax would need to added on top of the sales price rather than included within it.  If I want 1000 whatever for my item then the item goes to market at 1050 for the first five, 1100 for six through ten, etc.  It is much easier for the system to calculate the end price with a progressive system than forcing the player to memorize the tax tables.

    The other disadvantage to this is that the incentive to hide behaviour that would identify AH bots.  Monitoring the Auction Houses will provide the information to identify bots more rapidly on a single AH rather than spread out over many of them.  Although it probably is not that great a difference.

    By increasing the number of items between tax levels and lowering the change in tax rates this may be a reasonable gold sink system
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    I don't like high taxes in games where it ruins the economy, I don't want to subscribe to 'x'% right now but I do agree that via either citizenship or skills tax should be variable and cheaper for some depending on status.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Pays own employees with right hand...then claws it back with left hand as tax.
    Maybe just dont pay them so much and not charge them tax ?
    Kind of like a business charging its own staff a working tax for the company coffers.
    ;)

    Those who work for the node shoudl be tax exempt. Those 3rd party visitors should be taxed.

    In an ideal world the node workers would create infrastructure and essential utilities and services.
    3rd parties would rent space and pay for those essential services and be taxed on profits.
    Those taxes, rates and rents would pay the node workers.
    The 3rd parties would provide leisure, luxuries, entertainment and exotics.

    Think of it as a public private symbiotic relationship.
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    Gothix said:
    CylverRayne said:

    Once the node reaches the Metropolis level, a shared auction house will be available. The auction house will be shared with all nodes in the Metropolis' zone of influence."  

    So there is no need to travel to the other nodes in your zone unless you go to another metropolis area which in turn might be one  owned by hostiles.   

    Exactly, just like you wrote "there is no need to travel to the other nodes"... and that's just lame. Would be a lot more interesting if there was need to travel.
     
    And there COULD be (monetary) reason if tax was progressive. That's my point.

    I would expect that the shared AH is within the nodes zone of influence, think of it as a world with several countries, as one country grows by consuming others (node level up and increased ZoI) the AH would encompass that countries territory, you could still have a District of Columbia, or Monaco hanging out there just outside the giant Node's ZoI  which would have it's own closed AH.  Plus every other "country" out there would have their own AH as well.  

    IF we are talking a world with a possible 50-100 level 3 nodes, you are looking at 50-100 unique AHs, until a metro is created, which might encompass 5-20 smaller nodes within, granting a shared AH among them.  I personally consider that a bonus instead of a negative (although it does mean you would have to travel farther to get to another unique AH...)

    As far as taxes are concerned, most likely it will work like BDO, where it there is a 5% tax, and you sell ## of ore for 1000, then you would only receive 950, the tax is not on the buyer most often, but the seller.  this is because the point of the tax is not to increase the item's cost, but to decrease the money earned from the sale.

    We also have to consider the "Mayor" most likely will get a paycheck from the taxes, in addition to spending the taxes on node development and caravan protection.  I doubt we will see anything under 10% until the nodes get MUCH larger.
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    I think the taxes go to the nodes coffers to avoid a mayor jacking up the taxes to just pay him/her self. That being said if the node is preparing for a siege I could see a lot higher tax being set to pay for that.
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    I only suggested adding the tax to price if the tax was progressive.  In a flat tax situation then the price is static as well and the calculations are easy.  This could all be handled with the UI as well that automatically shows the tax and seller net with a tax system, progressive or flat.
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