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Do solo players have legitimacy to complain about MMO being difficult for solo player

MMO is not a single player game, it is designed to be played by massive amount of players, and it is meant to be social game where players play together and help each other out.

Often you will hear some players claiming they like to play solo, and also often complaining how some part of content is difficult for a solo player, and ask for mechanics to protect a solo player.

Now I will never say that solo players shouldn't play a MMO. They have right to play it, and they have right to opt to play it solo.

However, imho, they have no legitimacy to complain about any MMO content being difficult for a solo player, as it wasn't meant to be player as single player game.

What do you think?

(there is no I don't care option, If you do not care then simply do not vote)  B)
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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    The only thing I disagree with is your statement that solo players have a right to play mmos. I don't believe anyone has a right to anyone else's product (and that is what games are, products of the creator). Otherwise I agree, MMOs are supposed to be social games and therefore should be designed with group and social play at the forefront. No content should be nerfed or changed because one kind of player feeling entitled to it.
  • I Believe solo players have the right to state their opinion, thats part of the constitution but i feel devs shouldnt alter it to cater to the SOLO crowd. 

    Many a time in mmorps i have played solo but not once have i complained that the content should be nerfed so that a solo player could do it. 

    if you want to solo content than be good enough to solo more difficult content, otherwise its an mmorpg and there are plenty of ppl who want to complete the content also, so talk to them.
  • Constructive criticism should be welcome from any source but if you want an apple, buy an apple... don't buy an orange and complain it isn't red enough 
  • As old mate mentioned, I do solo play, but I've never complained about content in any way..

     I do not have any friends and I do not join guilds/clans due to all of them always having an absurdly unfair pecking order, a favouritism hierarchy.

    So more often than not, I end up quitting when I get stuck, rather than complaining :) 
  • Flameh0t said:
    As old mate mentioned, I do solo play, but I've never complained about content in any way..

     I do not have any friends and I do not join guilds/clans due to all of them always having an absurdly unfair pecking order, a favouritism hierarchy.

    So more often than not, I end up quitting when I get stuck, rather than complaining :) 
    It's all about finding the right guild for you, with players that share same play style as you. The you can all still play solo for the most part, but every now and then you can help each other out when needed.
  • I was very surprised at the amount of guilding going on so early before the game is even in alpha... but it does make a kind of sense when you consider the difference a community of friends can make, once the game begins.  @Flameh0t might do well to take advantage of this time to find a group that suits his play style
  • The fact that single player content has become a regular thing in mmos really bothers me. This genre of game was intended to be a mainly co-operative experience. Now, that's not to say there shouldn't be some form solo play. Everquest had a few classes that could solo and ffxi had two classes that were made specifically for someone wanting a solo experience, puppetmaster and beastmaster. But expecting a solo experience for every class is insane in this type of game.

  • While I agree with the majority, I feel like the question is asked in a biased way. I think there should be enough content for someone to enjoy the game solo. However, there should be content that isn't soloable. 
  • While I agree with the majority, I feel like the question is asked in a biased way. I think there should be enough content for someone to enjoy the game solo. However, there should be content that isn't soloable. 
    @Mooseknee10 Well said :) I agree with this too :)
  • Solo players have as much right to complain about content not being focused for them as casual players do.

    none.
  • There are times when I solo because I cannot stay at the keyboard because of interruptions, and it would be unfair to any group for me to join them; however, I've never complained that content was too difficult, because I acknowledge that most is designed for groups of 2 or more.  I think many who solo do the same, they will just wait til they are able to do the content or skip it altogether.
  • solo content is just as important as group content. There needs to be both because occasionally I want to play on my own when there is no one else online to play with. The older a game gets the more need for solo content there is because you just cant get a group.
  • What gw2 hot did wrong is making skill point challenges group content. You only do them once and then forget about it and never do it again except on an alt. So eventually when everyone has done them the skill point challenges are abandoned and it's incredibly hard to impossible to solo them. 

    So what I'm saying is make the right things solo and the right things group content. 
  • i would be considered a solo player. i only have about one hour to thirty minutes to play every other day. while being powerful feel great i would not like a game centered around just me. there needs to be group play and dynamics that only a group can get 
  • Freedom of speach.

    Most games lack solo play, its also very important. Just as group play.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I think it's awesome when solos clear group content so I think the devs shouldn't actively hinder that (arbitrary 'we nerfed kiting to prevent solos from doing X' for example) but it should still be a very difficult task to solo group content.
  • same as saying this coke is not a Pepsi , is in the name  
  • People have the right to their opinion and the right to express that opinion. However expecting others to cater to your self centered sense of the universe is wrong. Everyone has the right to their opinion and the right to play as they want. MMO's are supposed to be group content not a solo RPG game. I like solo sometime like most. I like trying to solo group stuff as I like the challenge. MMO's should be centered around group/social stuff.

    Long story short yes the have the right to complain but those complaints should fell on deaf ears.
  • People can and will complain about anything.

    Example.  If was standing on a street corner handing out $50 bills someone would complain that I wasn't handing out $100 bills.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Push polling isn't legitimate, so I didn't vote. I don't accept your premise. Here's my perspective:

    1. Game companies create games to make money.

    2. In general, making money in gaming happens when games garner interest and engagement from:
    • New customers from the existing segment (competitive acquisition)
    • New customers from affiliated segments (growth, cross-over, etc)
    • New customers from unaffiliated segments (market penetration, etc)
    3. Commonly identified segments in gaming align to one or more of the following:
    • Demographic, Persona, Psychographic, etc (who, what, why, where, how)
    • Business relation style/preference (i.e., Defined thoroughly in the linked articles, below)
    4. Affiliated segments are not popular in the gaming business; the industry has a culture of competitive opposition that has not benefited much at all over the years from the power and reach of relationship marketing in ANY manner.

    5. This culture of competitive opposition in the gaming industry ALWAYS supports conflict and division in its products, usually for the same reasons (i.e., capture the avid, reliable, but decidedly smaller market rather than risk competitive loss in a larger, more open competition).

    6. Those game companies "winning" today are those that have (to varying degrees) worked to provide complimentary game mechanics that support multiple choices for "how to play" to a broad set of segments in the existing marketplace.

    Examples invariably fire the rage of the reading forum audience, so I'm not going to specify - if you are at all familiar with what I'm saying, the names leap easily to your mind. If not, no amount of information will convince... moving on.

    7. Given the above, the choice that makes the most sense for the business and company would be to support as many complimentary revenue paths as is financially feasible and possible in a "gold" release to drive relationship/referral promotion and engagement THAT ALSO can reasonably sustain a forecast of reliable revenue.

    8. Unfortunately, most indie houses (legit indie, not the "secretly paid by Microsoft", "secretly paid by Google", or "secretly funded by Electronic Arts" kind) are constrained to starting small and betting it all on a small customer segment being both:
    In my opinion, this group of folks and this game likely have the private rounds in place (or available) to deliver a broader set of choices for a broader market of consumers. If that is true, then it would be incredibly telling if they restrict themselves to a smaller market in their design constraints...... which it seems they are, candidly.

    The question isn't "are solo player interests legitimate?" Just as it isn't "Are PvE player interests legitimate?" It is, "Is this product's design positioned to deliver to more than one persona's interests?" If not, the question anyone outside the current target should be asking is as pointed as it would be telling when answered:

    "Is this product's design such that could reasonably be expected to expand to do so within a year of launch?"

    I think this one could and might, so I'm here. That said, I'm very familiar with the ancestry from Studio 59 to Verant to Sony Online Entertainment to Daybreak to Intrepid, so I'll just be diplomatic and say there is a pronounced history of building the product someone in the company prefers than to one the various persona, segments, and markets can be validated to prefer. 

    And yes, I have moved from "hardcore" and "PvP" and "guild/team/group" preferred to "casual", "PvE", and "solo" preferred over the 20+ years I've been gaming because my life and interests demand it. 

    So, you see, for me, it's actually very simple (as I suspect it is for most, really): 

    1. Can I play and feel I've made progress (to the level of my own, personal perspective of what is reasonable) in the time I have available to play? 

    2. Can I easily move between solo and group play when I want to do so?

    3. Am I excluded from significant elements of play because of my play preference and available time?

    This, of course, doesn't even touch on my interests in areas ranging from aesthetics to art to story, etc. 

    In every instance of "either/or" that someone presents, my automatic answer is: 

    Why not both?

    It is not up to me as a customer to prove or justify my interests and preferences. It is up to the business/company/game to convince me that I should constrain or change them. 

    That, my friend, is a hard sell indeed. (grin)

    --- articles mentioned in the preceding contained in the 'spoiler' below ---

    (NOTE: Publicly available information is often very superficial in nature because the "business" of understanding this stuff and putting it to use for companies is its own extraordinarily competitive industry). That said, these are good articles that carry the theme over time from 1998 to 2017, so you can see it isn't changing).

    The following links recommended for those who are not professionally involved in marketing, product design, creation, etc as a knowledge domain  (i.e., the nuts and bolts of design and marketing for a company, a product, etc, as opposed to "a game company" take on game design and game marketing).

    That actually includes most game companies, who are still treating it all very much as if it's an "industry domain", which is why we see so many fledgling games wither and die when they release. One of many reasons, really, but they're all related.

    Link 1  - HBR Article from *1998* that is surprisingly current for today's interests:
    https://hbr.org/1998/01/preventing-the-premature-death-of-relationship-marketing

    Link 2 - HBR Article from 2016 on business ROI for online communities (gaming is actually woefully behind on almost all of the points in this item): 
    https://hbr.org/2016/06/getting-the-most-from-an-online-customer-community

    Link 3 - HBR Article from 2017 on the disconnect between most business perspectives and their customers on the TYPE of relationship desired (and how misreading it can derail not only a product, but a company - something also quite obvious in the game industry as an ongoing issue):
    https://hbr.org/2014/07/unlock-the-mysteries-of-your-customer-relationships

  • I WANNA PLAY MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAMES









    by myself....c:/sarcasm = 0
  • Excellent post by @Ekadzati !

    I think that's the thread killer in terms of serious responses.

    There should be enough variety of content to appease as many people's preferences as possible. 
  • I don't know if I can really select any of these, really. Since my days in EQ which, for the most part, required you to be grouped with at least one person to really get anywhere (and entire groups at max level etc) games have changed a bit. I have grown accustomed to the solo/small group of friends game style as it fits the way I want to play when I want to play.

    I just mainly don't want to be forcing a square peg through the circle hole. I do get that it's supposed to be a community coming together, but it's also individuals with different tastes and lives coming together. They're all going to play a part in the world no matter what playstyle they prefer.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I think there should be some solo content to do, but don't make the world toothless because of it.  Unfortunately I don't find that in one of the choices.
  • Gothix said:
    MMO is not a single player game, it is designed to be played by massive amount of players, and it is meant to be social game where players play together and help each other out.

    Often you will hear some players claiming they like to play solo, and also often complaining how some part of content is difficult for a solo player, and ask for mechanics to protect a solo player.

    Now I will never say that solo players shouldn't play a MMO. They have right to play it, and they have right to opt to play it solo.

    However, imho, they have no legitimacy to complain about any MMO content being difficult for a solo player, as it wasn't meant to be player as single player game.

    What do you think?

    (there is no I don't care option, If you do not care then simply do not vote)  B)


    Two definitions of MMO's"

    1.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_gameA massively multiplayer online game (MMOG or MMO) is an online game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players, typically from hundreds to thousands, simultaneously in the same instance.

     

    2.  Digital Technology.massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of other players.

     

    You're right in that MMO's are not a strictly solo game and designed for multiple players.

    But you are wrong to think that they are designed just for people to group with others.  INTERACTION does not necessarily mean dependence.  

     Most everyone has their time of solo play, even the most guild dependent players.  Also, most people who are smart and skilled enough to complete solo games know that help is needed to accomplish some things in MMO's.  They aren't as apt to complain as many pvp players do about balance and game play. 

    There are many people who never join guilds in games but will join pugs to go through dungeons etc.

     Playing solo is a choice as well as being a PvP or strict PvE player.

    They have as much right to complain as the next person.  Should they have all their complaints addressed? No and neither should everyone else. 

    Your poll is biased imho.   PvP players often complain about balance.  But is it really balance or lack of ability?  Should we nerf everyone in a class because some don't have the skill or ability to stand up against another class? Already many PvP players aren't happy that they won't have that "special" gear to make themselves "gods".    Considering that Ashes is a PvP and PvE game dependent on both styles of game play should the developers cater to the PvPers?  

     Everyone has the right to complain.  No one has the right to expect changes unless they are attuned with the game and how the developers want it to work.   




  • I kinda feel like the answers here on the poll are skewed in one direction so I chose not to answer it via radio button.

    Anyone is free to complain to try and play the way they want the dev team to lean towards.  I don't believe group content should be nerfed to the solo player, but I also don't believe the solo player should be ignored.  All of that aside is soley depends on the game.

    If your game is good enough that your group content is vibrant, and more importantly it's easy/quick to get groups then the solo question starts to fall into place a little easier.  If getting a group is a chore and takes awhile then you start butting into the solo vs. group dynamic.  

    My gaming habits personally have changed since the time I started gaming (12) to where I am now (36).  Now I may only have 30 min to 1 hour blocks due to work/family constraints whereas when I was younger I had essentially whole days or the time I got out of school until 1 am.  

    If I can't get anything done in the time frame of 30 min to 1 hour then I'll be less inclined to play.. it's really as simple as that.  It's not saying that ALL content has to be accessible to me or easy to do, but in reality what i'm trying to say is that 30 min to 1 hour time , I want to be able to do something meaningful to my character. 

    Let's be clear, in no way shape or form am I saying to get the best stuff and to do all content you must be able to do it in 30 min to 1 hour intervals, but there should be a happy balance that is struck in order for me to advance somehow.  I think this is where gaming companies simply get lazy and make content solable all around.
  • You're right in that MMO's are not a strictly solo game and designed for multiple players.

    But you are wrong to think that they are designed just for people to group with others.  INTERACTION does not necessarily mean dependence.

    Exactly.

    It seems as though the question the OP is trying to get at is along the lines of "should group content be nerfed to the point of soloability?"  The answer to which is, of course, no - then the groups won't have fun!

    However, it almost seems like the real spirit in the question is being asked is "should MMOs have soloable content at all?"  The answer to this is obviously yes, as it benefits both the game and the players when different play styles (not to mention moods) are supported.

    However, it's the balance of these things that makes or breaks some games/expansions.  For example, the garrisons in WoW's Warlords of Draenor expansion gave the game too much stuff to do solo; combined with the group finder, it really wrecked the social aspect game in a lot of ways.  By contrast, GW2's Heart of Thorns open world content was nearly impossible to solo (and is still pretty difficult on a fresh 80).

    Should every aspect of an MMO be soloable?  No.  Should we have productive things to do when we find ourselves alone?  Yes.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    People tend to forget what MM stands for in these games. They think they can log in and play like they do in Skyrim.

    I feel there should be opportunities for solo play, but not at the expense of what makes this genre unique. I've never understood the mentality of people logging into a multi-player game and refusing to interact with other people.

    It's like going to a Chinese Restaurant and ordering a hamburger. What's the point? Sure you can and should be able to do that, but there's other avenues more suited for your wants.

    Not to mention demanding the Chinese Restaurant change it's menu to serve more burgers... Honestly, come on. I think this is just as entitled as people feeling solo play has no place in MMOs, if not more so.

  • This poll is rigged.

    Personally I feel that solo-ability is a necessity to have in an MMO. New players that want to test out the game most times aren't going to search out a guild instantly to join and play with people, they're going to play it by themselves to see if it's fun.

    In my opinion, the process of leveling and getting gear to the point of being of average competitiveness SHOULD be solo-able (however it should also take a lot longer than if you were group playing), and the process of getting end game gear/being top gun should be only accessible to group raids.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Im 80% solo 20% group.
    I like to log on do things at my own pace, right away instead of fiding people or waiting for party to do stuff.
    Then waiting for people to travel, get ready etc. Or having set times at which friends or guilds are doing stuff. 
    Im not that committed to follow a schedule of events or quests. Life always comes first. Plus work, tons of unexpected overtime and being on call. I have to drop everything and goto work.

     I disagree with end game gear being for group players only. Obtaining sure. Getting by other means? No. ( without having to put in 100x the time solo)
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