well it's not beta yet, thankfully they have much more time to make stuff. Bet this is a placeholder to test the combo first of all. Pointless to make it all pretty and functional already to learn later that this will not work as intended.
Would love to see more visual and sound cues like weapons changing colors or bright lights, screams from the char when the start of the combo windows starts for example, trinkets and rings light up or something
I voted no slider because I suspect it won't change too much visually going forward. If they can fit the slider into the world as an extension of your weapon or aura then I'd be game for that since I'm already looking at my character.
This extra bar nonsense nty. The bar is ugly, the game is beautiful, don't take my eyes off the game please. Just to stop anyone saying they will improve the visuals, a bar pretty enough to justify this distraction does not exist.
I don't want to be fishing during combat... The precision bar is usually only used for noncombat stuff, like fishing because it takes away from focusing on what the other players are doing around you.
Mechanics and knowledge should be the main things that get you through any fight.
I'm all for the slider bar for gathering, but it just doesn't make sense for combat. Combat is about focusing on your enemy and what they are doing, not a bar on your screen. It's really as simple as that.
the slider give a more skillfull gameplay then just the "omg i spam random buttons im gud" gameplay, but they need to rework the ui for it (and since its pre aplha, they gonna do it anyways)
I do find it a bit interesting that the vast majority of people either dislike or have no opinion of it. Not many people saw the feature and said 'oh hey that's really cool'.
I'm not saying it's a bad system, but unless it becomes a lot more complex than just a minigame to play while battling for bonus damage, I don't think it can achieve the full potential of separating the best players from the worst.
The question is: what does PvP come down to? Does the power lie with the leader or with the individual? Because if the leader of the group suggests a strategy, puts X amount of tanks and clerics on the team, etc, then PvP would play out like chess, with each player a chess piece, and the king choosing how many of each piece he wants to fight with. Battles will be won and lost by the best strategies, tactics and counters, and ability to identify strengths and weaknesses of the teams. But if it's the individual, such as in CS:GO, League of Legends, etc. where there's an overlying strategy, but the skill of the player takes precedence, then PvP would be such that it doesn't really matter what your strategy is. Battles would be won and lost by a team simply having the better players who can get the most dps off on their opponents without being punished. Game knowledge will come into it a bit, and there will be a shotcaller, but generally it all goes out the window if you're playing against someone who's that good.
So really, if Intrepid want the shotcaller/mastermind to have all the power, then I think the feature is totally fine, and there is no need for such high skill required to execute combos, because positioning and managing global cooldowns is what will win a battle. But if they want the individual to be able to win a fight all by themselves, then we need a different system that allows combos to be executed to perfection to maximise damage.
There are drawbacks for both. In a leader-based battle, you could pretty much recruit anyone for the job, and being a player in a battle doesn't have much value. I think that's pretty important and the biggest reason why I'm not in favour of that system, and hence not in favour of the current sliding bar based on reasons stated above. In an player-based battle, you need the best of the best players, those who have really worked hard on their skills and deserve to be recruited. This makes it fun for everyone because they have something to strive for. However, when someone thinks they're the best at the game, they're the ones that are most likely to make rash decisions and not follow the game plan. But if the leader can get the best and most obedient players, I think PvP is the most fun it can be.
Long post, I know. I think there is a distinction to be made between the two styles though. And even though I voted 'I need more information', I would prefer if the game took a player-based battle approach, and so I don't think the sliding bar is good enough to distinguish the best from the worst. The best players will either have really good muscle memory or really good reflexes (depending on if the slider moves or not), and I think it's a bit of a letdown for that to be the only 'skill' you need other than game knowledge.
I am not a fan of this slide bar either and i think it would be better let players focus more to environment and other players at combat situation. Combo system can still be there, but timing could base on character animations and signs or sayings and sound effects. So you basically can see or hear these combo spots without 100% concentration to a bar.
Also the combat could be more smooth, where these combos are not stopping attacks like hitting to the wall, but are still continuing the attack, but just less effective.
I think the bar is good starting point to artisan skills, however i hope we would see little bit more complex minigames during these actions. Maybe complexicity could rise with level..
Heard Jeffrey answering questions off of Twitch say that it was just added for PAX as an indicator so people could see the mechanic. That over the course of development, while the idea behind the system will NOT change, the way it is displayed on the UI WOULD change and be tweaked in the future.
Heard Jeffrey answering questions off of Twitch say that it was just added for PAX as an indicator so people could see the mechanic. That over the course of development, while the idea behind the system will NOT change, the way it is displayed on the UI WOULD change and be tweaked in the future.
So the bar would look better? Does not make up for the poor mechanic.
In MMO combat your abilities should be about muscle memory, there are to many other things to pay attention to in battle. I need to be paying attention to my opponents cast bar, LOS, movement of others, friendly health bars. The last thing I want to look at is my own cast bar.
Heard Jeffrey answering questions off of Twitch say that it was just added for PAX as an indicator so people could see the mechanic. That over the course of development, while the idea behind the system will NOT change, the way it is displayed on the UI WOULD change and be tweaked in the future.
It's absolutely terrible, I assure you if enough people complain, they'll remove that F2P Mobile garbage.
Don't like it, takes away from the actual combat that's going on. From what i gather it's to basically gather the 'focus mechanic', you could change the the quick time bar for certain skills to gather focus and those skills have to land on target to gather 'focus'. This way you don't have to take your eyes of your target to look at a bar at the bottom of the screen.
Exactly this is the problem with so many other games which feature 'tab target' combat, regardless of other UI additions.
A combat system needs to put the fight front and center. Any combat system which has you look at icons, cooldowns and other elements is, frankly, a badly designed system.
FPS got this right ages ago by virtue of their central mechanic: Point and shoot. There's no superfluous UI elements in (most) shooters which distract the player from their actual target, from their opponent.
RPG-wise, you've got games like Dark Souls which have almost no UI elements during combat whatsoever. There's an indicator for which spell and item you have equipped, along with a HP and stamina bar. The rest of the gameplay is focused where it needs to be: On you and your opponent.
AoC, with this system, makes a huge, giant leap backwards in to late 90's/early 00's MMO design. UI complexity and systems do not a game make:
The above is just a meme, but it's one with a serious intent behind it. This is not the game anyone wants to *play*.
Intrepid, get the combat and UI right. It is absolutely critical, not just to make AoC a game that belongs in 2017/2018 and beyond, but also for another much more basic reason:
Currently, with this combat system as well as the payment model, AoC is - whether you like this or not - in direct competition with WoW. The more compromises you make to ancient design sensibilities like these means that there is less reason to choose AoC over WoW for many prospective players, because frankly, WoW does it better.
Get with the times and scrap the current combat system. Create something new, dynamic and fresh. Get rid of tab targetting and give players *control* over what they look at and how they play. Don't force them to look at the UI to fight stuff, that's just doing your own art department a huge disservice.
The good. Potentially eliminates button spamming Potentially eliminates macroes and scripts.
The Bad. Completely breaks immerion by forcing you to devote your attention to the UI and not the game world. UI based combat elements should be optional (informational)....not compulsory.
The potential. We need an RNG or skillshot system that is not scriptable, but it must require gameplay focus and not UI focus. This would resolve the button spamming, botting and macro problems without sacrificing immersion IMO.
The Suggestion. I would like an audio pulse system on power shots. That pulse starts at random offsets to break tracking and scripting. The pulse speed increases with shot difficulty and/or power. The success window within that pulse should be a fixed ratio, but the pulse speed would make the time window shorter or longer (also breaking tracking and scripting). Holding a button down across pulses should increase the pulse frequency, increase the power but prevent all skills (overcharge). Releasing the button within the skill shot window will grant overcharge (critical damage).
The idea behind this is the greedier you get with the overcharge, the more time you waste being a sitting duck and the harder it is to actually pull off. The plus side is if you do pull it off.....
This also kind of helps with the ranged OP issue. Normally a ranged player could pull off critical after critical because they are out of range and have all the time in the world without incoming damage from melee fighters. With this system, the ranged player must get perfect timing to pull off high damage long range shots. Maximum damage is not granted by default.
You could also have an escalation timer. If you overcharge for too long ...you lose concentration and the pulse system resets to low frequency and power.
This should be class, weapon, skill agnostic. Although tonal changes unique to weapons or classes is obviously not out of the question to let you become familiar with specific tools like specific musical instruments.
Hmm, the slider brings a new aspect to the game. I can see how it could be annoying, but even though it will probably be an important part of the game. You can probably just ignore it most of the time and just use your peripheral vision to time it. For most experienced mmorpgs players it is a new and unique feature to the genre. Like most things this will take some time to get used too. I am not against it as it seems interesting, which I think is one of the most important thing for a game, but I am not totally on board with it as I have been playing mmorpgs for many years now and I don't know how I feel about the lack of auto attacks and that it will give mages and other high burst dps classes a major advantage in pvp.
I must admit, as a somewhat older, somewhat disabled and possibly slower-reflexed player, this may even things up for me in some ways - but I still wouldn't want the slider bar just where it is, as I stated previously, or that it even need stay as a bar. Whatever there is needs to be easily in sight of the player whilst they concentrate on the opponent most.
They
have yet to announce who will implement the security system to protect
the game client from hacking/cheating. This is my field of expertise, so
I'm interested to find out who they use.
Except scripts to automate the slide bar comboing won't need to hook into the game code, it just needs to look at what is being displayed. Without something incredibly invasive, I don't see how Panopticon Labs will be able to detect that.
That being said, not doing something because it can be automated is a bad reason, because people will find a way to automate any system.
I am not in favor UI specific mini games for specific combat mechanics.
I would much prefer the Combo/precision bar system integrated into in game character/weapon model animations, audio visual effects and assets. (Make the rangers red draw arm pause and pulse a yellow for example, though power shot already has a bow effect to the point where the action bar is not necessary)
Or do both the UI and the in game assets and let me have both options toggleable for best case scenario.
There is no counter play in a UI specific combat mechanic. If I was the opponent I would like to see what i can block, counter or evade optimally too. the though of not only having my own UI distraction to manage as well as a possible targets UI distraction to manage feels like a UI cluster f*&k.
I like to play with minimal UI elements regardless of customization options. So I am sacrificing immersion for combat effectiveness, a personal gripe but i don't think i am alone in this opinion.
For gathering it's ok though id like to see fishing even more engaging than the stardew valley fishing mini game.
Comments
Bet this is a placeholder to test the combo first of all. Pointless to make it all pretty and functional already to learn later that this will not work as intended.
Would love to see more visual and sound cues like weapons changing colors or bright lights, screams from the char when the start of the combo windows starts for example, trinkets and rings light up or something
It dont looks like fun and I dont wanne watch on that bar in fights.
This extra bar nonsense nty. The bar is ugly, the game is beautiful, don't take my eyes off the game please. Just to stop anyone saying they will improve the visuals, a bar pretty enough to justify this distraction does not exist.
Mechanics and knowledge should be the main things that get you through any fight.
I'm not saying it's a bad system, but unless it becomes a lot more complex than just a minigame to play while battling for bonus damage, I don't think it can achieve the full potential of separating the best players from the worst.
The question is: what does PvP come down to?
Does the power lie with the leader or with the individual?
Because if the leader of the group suggests a strategy, puts X amount of tanks and clerics on the team, etc, then PvP would play out like chess, with each player a chess piece, and the king choosing how many of each piece he wants to fight with. Battles will be won and lost by the best strategies, tactics and counters, and ability to identify strengths and weaknesses of the teams.
But if it's the individual, such as in CS:GO, League of Legends, etc. where there's an overlying strategy, but the skill of the player takes precedence, then PvP would be such that it doesn't really matter what your strategy is. Battles would be won and lost by a team simply having the better players who can get the most dps off on their opponents without being punished. Game knowledge will come into it a bit, and there will be a shotcaller, but generally it all goes out the window if you're playing against someone who's that good.
So really, if Intrepid want the shotcaller/mastermind to have all the power, then I think the feature is totally fine, and there is no need for such high skill required to execute combos, because positioning and managing global cooldowns is what will win a battle.
But if they want the individual to be able to win a fight all by themselves, then we need a different system that allows combos to be executed to perfection to maximise damage.
There are drawbacks for both. In a leader-based battle, you could pretty much recruit anyone for the job, and being a player in a battle doesn't have much value. I think that's pretty important and the biggest reason why I'm not in favour of that system, and hence not in favour of the current sliding bar based on reasons stated above.
In an player-based battle, you need the best of the best players, those who have really worked hard on their skills and deserve to be recruited. This makes it fun for everyone because they have something to strive for. However, when someone thinks they're the best at the game, they're the ones that are most likely to make rash decisions and not follow the game plan. But if the leader can get the best and most obedient players, I think PvP is the most fun it can be.
Long post, I know. I think there is a distinction to be made between the two styles though. And even though I voted 'I need more information', I would prefer if the game took a player-based battle approach, and so I don't think the sliding bar is good enough to distinguish the best from the worst. The best players will either have really good muscle memory or really good reflexes (depending on if the slider moves or not), and I think it's a bit of a letdown for that to be the only 'skill' you need other than game knowledge.
Also the combat could be more smooth, where these combos are not stopping attacks like hitting to the wall, but are still continuing the attack, but just less effective.
I think the bar is good starting point to artisan skills, however i hope we would see little bit more complex minigames during these actions. Maybe complexicity could rise with level..
A combat system needs to put the fight front and center. Any combat system which has you look at icons, cooldowns and other elements is, frankly, a badly designed system.
FPS got this right ages ago by virtue of their central mechanic: Point and shoot. There's no superfluous UI elements in (most) shooters which distract the player from their actual target, from their opponent.
RPG-wise, you've got games like Dark Souls which have almost no UI elements during combat whatsoever. There's an indicator for which spell and item you have equipped, along with a HP and stamina bar. The rest of the gameplay is focused where it needs to be: On you and your opponent.
AoC, with this system, makes a huge, giant leap backwards in to late 90's/early 00's MMO design. UI complexity and systems do not a game make:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ba/f5/b2/baf5b2904975f820d3013c9f8a0ee9dc.jpg
The above is just a meme, but it's one with a serious intent behind it. This is not the game anyone wants to *play*.
Intrepid, get the combat and UI right. It is absolutely critical, not just to make AoC a game that belongs in 2017/2018 and beyond, but also for another much more basic reason:
Currently, with this combat system as well as the payment model, AoC is - whether you like this or not - in direct competition with WoW. The more compromises you make to ancient design sensibilities like these means that there is less reason to choose AoC over WoW for many prospective players, because frankly, WoW does it better.
Get with the times and scrap the current combat system. Create something new, dynamic and fresh. Get rid of tab targetting and give players *control* over what they look at and how they play. Don't force them to look at the UI to fight stuff, that's just doing your own art department a huge disservice.
The good.
Potentially eliminates button spamming
Potentially eliminates macroes and scripts.
The Bad.
Completely breaks immerion by forcing you to devote your attention to the UI and not the game world.
UI based combat elements should be optional (informational)....not compulsory.
The potential.
We need an RNG or skillshot system that is not scriptable, but it must require gameplay focus and not UI focus.
This would resolve the button spamming, botting and macro problems without sacrificing immersion IMO.
The Suggestion.
I would like an audio pulse system on power shots.
That pulse starts at random offsets to break tracking and scripting.
The pulse speed increases with shot difficulty and/or power.
The success window within that pulse should be a fixed ratio,
but the pulse speed would make the time window shorter or longer (also breaking tracking and scripting).
Holding a button down across pulses should increase the pulse frequency, increase the power but prevent all skills (overcharge).
Releasing the button within the skill shot window will grant overcharge (critical damage).
The idea behind this is the greedier you get with the overcharge, the more time you waste being a sitting duck and the harder it is to actually pull off. The plus side is if you do pull it off.....
This also kind of helps with the ranged OP issue.
Normally a ranged player could pull off critical after critical because they are out of range and have all the time in the world without incoming damage from melee fighters.
With this system, the ranged player must get perfect timing to pull off high damage long range shots. Maximum damage is not granted by default.
You could also have an escalation timer. If you overcharge for too long ...you lose concentration and the pulse system resets to low frequency and power.
This should be class, weapon, skill agnostic. Although tonal changes unique to weapons or classes is obviously not out of the question to let you become familiar with specific tools like specific musical instruments.
And to those who are saying they dont want to fight the ui, if this bar takes ur whole attention then , sry, u are bad in PvX anyway.
Except scripts to automate the slide bar comboing won't need to hook into the game code, it just needs to look at what is being displayed. Without something incredibly invasive, I don't see how Panopticon Labs will be able to detect that.
That being said, not doing something because it can be automated is a bad reason, because people will find a way to automate any system.
I would much prefer the Combo/precision bar system integrated into in game character/weapon model animations, audio visual effects and assets. (Make the rangers red draw arm pause and pulse a yellow for example, though power shot already has a bow effect to the point where the action bar is not necessary)
Or do both the UI and the in game assets and let me have both options toggleable for best case scenario.
There is no counter play in a UI specific combat mechanic. If I was the opponent I would like to see what i can block, counter or evade optimally too. the though of not only having my own UI distraction to manage as well as a possible targets UI distraction to manage feels like a UI cluster f*&k.
I like to play with minimal UI elements regardless of customization options. So I am sacrificing immersion for combat effectiveness, a personal gripe but i don't think i am alone in this opinion.
For gathering it's ok though id like to see fishing even more engaging than the stardew valley fishing mini game.