The combat system as it is

ArchivedUser

Right, I see a whole lot of, I don't like this, and this does not work. So, please, if you vote here, and think the combat system needs work. Comment below what your ideas are. And how you would make it better. Not just negativity, but constructive. 
Keep in mind, this is pre-alpha. So UI things, as well as animations should not really be mentioned. As those will be fleshed out. I'm talking about the core gameplay, the direction in which they are going. Let's begin.

Suppose I'll go first.

I think the combat system as is, is quite bare-bones. It has potential, but based on what I've seen, they aren't going in that direction. What I see is a pretty standard battle system. The boss fight was just like any other I've seen, whilst it looked cool, and somewhat cinematic, the actual mechanics are nothing new. Avoid the frontal cone attack.

Now as I mentioned in a previous post, the combat system has potential. The spells already interact with players, and I don't mean damage, or debuff/buff. But a wall can be used to deny access through a narrow path, for example. Or force them to run around. However, spells and effects, still go through. Why? Why doesn't the erected wall block off the frontal cone? Why do spells only have to be directed at a target? I realise this might be difficult with ping, and what not. But if say two mages duel, and one uses <frost based skill> and the other <fire based skill> Why not have them interact? Cancel eachother out, or create a whirlwind where they meet? I think that's what happens with such extreme temperature differences? 

In my opinion, things like this would work wonders for the combat system, it makes it so much more engaging. As a Summoner, I could order my summon to take the hit, killing it, but saving me from damage. Rogues could leave a shadowclone behind, or whatever. 

In short, it just looked like a standard tank and spank, with a combo system and ultimate meter filler that has been done before.

I don't think this is an overhaul on the combat system, I think it's basically the same as summoner summons, i.e. making the spells an actual entity in-game, rather than an effect.

ArchivedUser

I can't remember what video I saw it in, but it was mentioned this style of combat was new to most people and unfamiliar. To me this actually sounds promising, I want a game that I can't just AFK macro away. 

The system needs polish and more hands on experience, but what they are going after sounds different and "innovative" to use the devs terms. If it builds immersion in a positive way, doesn't distract from actively enjoying the game and is can be customized to the players style, I can't wait for it! 

ArchivedUser

Right, I see a whole lot of, I don't like this, and this does not work. So, please, if you vote here, and think the combat system needs work. Comment below what your ideas are. And how you would make it better. Not just negativity, but constructive. 
Keep in mind, this is pre-alpha. So UI things, as well as animations should not really be mentioned. As those will be fleshed out. I'm talking about the core gameplay, the direction in which they are going. Let's begin.

Suppose I'll go first.

I think the combat system as is, is quite bare-bones. It has potential, but based on what I've seen, they aren't going in that direction. What I see is a pretty standard battle system. The boss fight was just like any other I've seen, whilst it looked cool, and somewhat cinematic, the actual mechanics are nothing new. Avoid the frontal cone attack.

Now as I mentioned in a previous post, the combat system has potential. The spells already interact with players, and I don't mean damage, or debuff/buff. But a wall can be used to deny access through a narrow path, for example. Or force them to run around. However, spells and effects, still go through. Why? Why doesn't the erected wall block off the frontal cone? Why do spells only have to be directed at a target? I realise this might be difficult with ping, and what not. But if say two mages duel, and one uses <frost based skill> and the other <fire based skill> Why not have them interact? Cancel eachother out, or create a whirlwind where they meet? I think that's what happens with such extreme temperature differences? 

In my opinion, things like this would work wonders for the combat system, it makes it so much more engaging. As a Summoner, I could order my summon to take the hit, killing it, but saving me from damage. Rogues could leave a shadowclone behind, or whatever. 

In short, it just looked like a standard tank and spank, with a combo system and ultimate meter filler that has been done before.

I don't think this is an overhaul on the combat system, I think it's basically the same as summoner summons, i.e. making the spells an actual entity in-game, rather than an effect.

ArchivedUser

Of course being pre-alpha it has a long ways to go. I would guess it will change many times from now.

ArchivedUser

Firstly it's pre-alpha so what we see is defo not what we are going to get.

For me personally I don't want an over-haul - I want Ashes to find the combat system that is right for them. I don't want Ashes to try and be any other game but  I wish to see it be it's own

ArchivedUser

This is far far far from the intended goal of the combat system.
1. If you listen to the Bard interview of the depth of the weapon system variety and customisability to come, you will begin to get a glimpse of how far off PAX is from that vision.
2. Only 1 button is really allocated to direct combat as such....well semi ignoring the ultimate. All the other buttons are for situational counter play...including the ultimate.

So my understanding is there will be many skills to unlock and place into those counterplay slots...as well as a whole host of direct attack modifications. It really does look like we are barely seeing the tip of the iceberg at the moment.

We also know the skill window differs with weapons. So some will be slow paced and some fast paced. There is much we do not know. And far too much missing to make a judgement upon.

I love the Bard..he is a reliable source of leaky information He reminds of that scene in lethal weapon where two children are interviewed and one covers the others mouth and says...'dont tell him that so and so happened'.

oops!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09-iq5AhDDo

ArchivedUser

I guess i need to see more to pass a final judgement on the combat system but for what i saw, it seems like a traditional WoW combat system, nothing really revolutionary tbh, the only new thing added was the combo bar that requires timing, which is cool IMO but like i said, nothing really groundbreaking.

I wish that our Senior Artist Mat Broome can comment on his past experience on DC Universe Online, which is still the game that has my favorite combat system, very action packed and stretegic at the same time with an easy to grasp counter system based on blocks, block breakers, lounges and weapon combos besides the casted abilities of each powerset. It would be great if some of those ideas could be implemented here to get a more fast paced combat, well at least that is my opinion.

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

This is far far far from the intended goal of the combat system.
1. If you listen to the Bard interview of the depth of the weapon system variety and customisability to come, you will begin to get a glimpse of how far off PAX is from that vision.
2. Only 1 button is really allocated to direct combat as such....well semi ignoring the ultimate. All the other buttons are for situational counter play...including the ultimate.

So my understanding is there will be many skills to unlock and place into those counterplay slots...as well as a whole host of direct attack modifications. It really does look like we are barely seeing the tip of the iceberg at the moment.

We also know the skill window differs with weapons. So some will be slow paced and some fast paced. There is much we do not know. And far too much missing to make a judgement upon.

I love the Bard..he is a reliable source of leaky information He reminds of that scene in lethal weapon where two children are interviewed and one covers the others mouth and says...'dont tell him that so and so happened'.

oops!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09-iq5AhDDo

I watched that too, and whilst it certainly sounds great, the more customisation the better. (For me at least) It doesn't change the core mechanics they are aiming for. I realise what we saw was the tip of the iceberg. I realise you'll get more skills, augments, and all of that. But what they said about the augments. Teleport rush, stealth rush, etc. Doesn't change things at its core. 

The reason I put this on now, is simply because it is so early. They have time to add features and ideas.

ArchivedUser

I have not really seen enough combat yet to be able to make a decision but I don't like the look of the precision bar. It looks to fiddly. 

ArchivedUser

What I have seen sofar is very lacking. However, that is probably coupled with the fact that there are hardly any skills/actions yet, as such still waiting.

ArchivedUser

I find combat too slow.

The time it takes to stand in front of your target, play the slider minigame and the time it takes to execute the attack is too long in my opinion.

I might be spoiled with Black Deserts fast paced action combat, but I don't like what I have seen so far, combat wise.

ArchivedUser

FliP said:

I find combat too slow.

The time it takes to stand in front of your target, play the slider minigame and the time it takes to execute the attack is too long in my opinion.

I might be spoiled with Black Deserts fast paced action combat, but I don't like what I have seen so far, combat wise.

I thought so too, at first, but having to keep track of the combo stuff and what not. The combat's a lot faster if you're playing I reckon.

ArchivedUser

I'll withhold any judgement until I see more development because realistically it's obvious it needs more work because they only had 3 months to do what they did in such a short amount of time. I see a lot of people comparing it to Black Dessert online or Blade and soul but we never got, or at least I haven't, the privilege to see what those other games looked like in pre-alpha stage. 

ArchivedUser

With the little that I have seen I like the direction they are heading simply because it is a more active approach to combat and seems more involved then mindless button mashing. I'm excited to see where they take this and how it shapes up in the end.

ArchivedUser

I'm going to listen to what the people who attended Pax (four of which being my Guild Mates) said.. They greatly enjoyed the Combat system and, while there is some polishing that needs to be done, it's heading in the right direction.. It looks weird to watch in videos, but when you're actually playing it, it all works well.

ArchivedUser

My comment would be long so I'm just voting. Maybe I can present my opinions later in a comment, but not now, I'm tired. Just voting and reading.

ArchivedUser

Well since this was literally just a 3 month build for PAX and not a representation of all the game mechanics, I'm sticking with I need to see more before I start getting critical on their design choices. I believe at one point it was said that the combat demo only has about 20% of the planned functionality. Also the QTE slider will eventually be given a UI overhaul with plenty of options given to change appearance to fit everyone's style. I'm certain that by the time this game makes it to release through all the iterations and feedback, we will have a great combat system.

ArchivedUser

Hardmode said:

Well since this was literally just a 3 month build for PAX and not a representation of all the game mechanics, I'm sticking with I need to see more before I start getting critical on their design choices. I believe at one point it was said that the combat demo only has about 20% of the planned functionality. Also the QTE slider will eventually be given a UI overhaul with plenty of options given to change appearance to fit everyone's style. I'm certain that by the time this game makes it to release through all the iterations and feedback, we will have a great combat system.

Indeed he did say that.

ArchivedUser

Mmmmn. The combat is in-between WoW and NWO.
For me, a bit clunkier than both at the moment.
But, the team was really just trying to get some playable combat ready in time for PAX, so we shouldn't be expecting to see anything revolutionary here... yet.

ArchivedUser

The system is still pre-alpha and in the development stages. Based on the comments from Intrepid we are just seeing the very tip of the spear here and in the coming weeks / months as this beast evolves I think that we will see some very dynamic changes and developments to the system. Trust and believe

ArchivedUser

think Steven said the melee classes need some work with the combo system , but will need tweaks for sure but like that they are trying something new 

ArchivedUser

I voted tweaks for the moment.  I've said all along the combat system is going to have many different iterations before it's all said and done.  We need to admit that there's no perfect solution for a combat system.  Everyone will always have ideas and/or opinions on the combat system.

With that said, the combo bar needs the most changes in its current form.  Having to stare down a bar to activate a combo takes away from the game.  I want to be able to see what an enemy is casting or where they are moving in an attempt to predict their next move.  I like the idea of visual queues/animations to activate combos.  Your eyes are focused on your character and the enemy you are fighting at that point.

ArchivedUser

I voted for the combat system needing tweaks.  I will go with the opinions that I have seen from people who have played and acknowledged the state of development and they seem favourable or at least neutral to a wait a see approach.  I am sure that the combat mechanics will change as they delve into them further.  The one statement I really like was when Jeff stated that the system will stay but the implementation may change.  I like that they have a plan for the game and will stick with that plan while still listening to feedback and modifying as necessary.

One of the concerns that I have seen is about pacing of combat but that seems to be mostly from people watching combat.  The people who played the demo seemed to be more satisfied with the pace.  Also, the ability to focus your build with action oriented skills may quicken the pace for those that are still unsatisfied when they have a chance to play.

The UI customization will be key for me.  The ability to move features around to make it comfortable for me to view them without taking my attention away from the game environment will make any of the less likeable mechanics at least manageable.  I am really hoping that remapping the inputs is possible, which I think is quite likely.

TL:DR  The combat seems to have neutral to favourable reviews from people who played it and acknowledged the state of development that it is in so I think tweaking it will be enough.

ArchivedUser

 Disgusting, was my 1st impression at PAX. I do understand that the combat system was just thrown together for the event, but it was really bad. Action based combat like, BDO and ESO is what I've played for years and playing this game was as exciting as watching paint dry. I would ask for my money back, but this game is going to need it. 

ArchivedUser

Need to actually get my hands on it before passing any judgement, fortunately I will get to do just that in alpha0, but even then it will be far from the final product. It will hopefully give me a feel for the direction they are going and I can provide some constructive feedback good or bad time will tell. 

ArchivedUser

What @Varkun said. ^^

ArchivedUser

Agreeing with what many said I don't think the combat system is bad, especially for Pre-Alpha, just needs to be changed to change that QTE slider bar and make it more immersive with the game. Also like Steven said it is only 20% of what it should feel finally so I find these posts somewhat useless .

ArchivedUser

Don't panic just yet - there's a long way to go. It looks very meh in its current state, but then again, when Guild Wars 2 was in a similar stage of development, it looked worse. With that in mind there's no need to worry, really.

ArchivedUser

While combat isn't the most important thing to me I know many of my friends who feel that it is the most important element to an mmo. With that said, I want to ensure Intrepid knows that the combat in its current form(or as it was presented at PAX which we experienced) is not acceptable.

While I would still play the game, as it was presented, at least 3 of my 6 friends would probably not play or quit soon after launch. It just wasn't captivating and undermines all the other aspects of the game.

ArchivedUser

we are far far away from release so.. just let times go

ArchivedUser

I know that other game have low number abilities but 8 abilities does not sound to exciting would like to see at least 16 abilities min. But even just four more would add more variety in the game.   I saw a page up button so maybe there will be more abilities to chose frome but only be able to use 8.  But Do not know for sure. 

So if you added 8 more abilities the combat system would basically need an overhaul.

But I would like to say that for the pre-alpha content it was acceptable,  since it was so early in the game.  I mean it is so early in developement that it would be completely unfair to campare it with a game that is already released.   From what I hear the combat system in BDO was really bad before it got released now some say it is pretty good. Think I will do a post called the Legendary Combat system.