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Introducing True AI for next-level boss fights & PvE

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Comments

  • I don't think it should be so clear or at least it needs to be that clear. I'd want to learn when to dodge by watching the characters and their animations rather then just avoiding the red. It's kind of a show vs tell scenario where the game should show you an attack and have you decide how to react rather then just telling you where you should or shouldn't stand.

    As a tank, in the pax demo, you did not need to know the exact dimensions of the breaths hitbox to dodge attack. The breath was obviously a frontal cone attack and could be dodged by standing on the side. When i played i was only hit by it because i focused on the combo meter and not looking at the boss.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Another aspect of not having enough detail.
    Easy enough in a pure tab-target game, I suppose.
    I could be more focused on watching the boss while still attacking adds via tab-target.

    In action games, where you need to aim at your targets, we need red circle telegraphs so we can rely on peripheral vision to be ready to jump from the boss while focused on aiming at adds.

    Again - same reason why we have health bars.
    Because are range of senses in a video game are not adequate.
    We need meters and mini-maps and other visual telegraphs in video games to compensate for the lack of adequate sensory cues.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    I'm throwing a wild guess that Intrepids "combination of tab target and action combat" means that we will have an action combat and have to aim all our attacks, but will be able to tab target desired enemy to be able to track its HP and attacks it does.

    So target boss and keep target on it to pay attention to what it casts while aiming at the adds and shooting them.

    And we will not be able to use tab target system to actually attack an enemy that we are not aiming at.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    So far the boss we could see in videos looks like few squares with a nob as a head sh!ting out somtn
  • It's kind of a show vs tell scenario where the game should show you an attack and have you decide how to react rather then just telling you where you should or shouldn't stand.
    There's more to it though.  Having to depend on a tell from the boss significantly limits what they can do in a fight, and those sorts of mechanics only really test if you've done enough pulls to memorize all the tells.  Additionally, the lethality of some mechanics has to be checked by the ambiguity of the range, if you have to depend on the lack of damage to know you are out of the breath then you need to be able to take some damage from the breath as you find the edge.

    Compare that to Wildstar raid bosses, where you have trouble dealing with mechanics even when everything is telegraphed, because the telegraph lets them design intricate fights, and the intentionality of the telegraphs lets them use truly deadly attacks.  That same breath attack in Wildstar would be a one shot, and it would either follow the tank (orb on zombie Mordechai) or move in a predetermined way (Obliteration Beams on Avatus), because the tank would know the boundary without risking the damage. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Gothix said:
    I'm throwing a wild guess that Intrepids "combination of tab target and action combat" means that we will have an action combat and have to aim all our attacks, but will be able to tab target desired enemy to be able to track its HP and attacks it does.

    So target boss and keep target on it to pay attention to what it casts while aiming at the adds and shooting them.

    And we will not be able to use tab target system to actually attack an enemy that we are not aiming at.
    Some abilities will be tab-target. Some abilities will be action-based.
    We don't have to aim all of our abilities. And not all of our abilities will be tab-target.
    Players will be able to choose which path on the skill tree they wish to concentrate on.

    If we always had to aim to target, tabbing would be a pointless mechanic.   ;)
  • Dygz said:

    If we always had to aim to target, tabbing would be a pointless mechanic.   ;)

    Nah, not pointless. :) As I wrote it could still be usable to track what important mobs (ie. bosses) are doing and what % their HP is, while dealing with other mobs (aiming at them and shooting at them).
  • @mycroft
    mycroft said:
    Uao said:
    The thing that bothers me with wildstar is that they used these telgraphs way too much. Its more of a replacement for proper animations smh.
    Removing the ambiguity is a good thing though.  When your raid wipes in Wildstar, you know exactly what bad stuff you stood in.  I cringe every time I watch the PAX PvE demo, the only way the tank knows he's out of the boss's breath is that he isn't taking damage from it.  A proper telegraph would make things absolutely clear.

    Tera doesnt have unwanted ambiguity in boss actions either.
    If its not clear where the attack is going the developers that are responsible for combat animations did a bad job. And for that alone it doesnt matter if its indicated by red squares or actual immersive animations.
    Good animations beeing the superior choice is a no brainer, just as photos of real world objects are superior to rectangular paint drawings in one flashy color.
    Ofc it isnt too bad to use telegraphs if theres really no reasonable way to display a animation that fits the setting and designing such setting would be too expensive.

    Since ashes is still in pre alpha, its uncertain attacks are forgivable ofc, theres no need to pick on/laugh about placeholders.

    mycroft said:
    Uao said:
    Also tera has a ton of i-frame and dodging skills that add alot to the gameplay while wildstar only has this small ability bar with ~11 skills.
    No iframes in Wildstar, knowing exactly where things will happen because of the telegraphs let you avoid damage by actually avoiding it, and crafting a skill set to maximize your damage/threat and tankiness/healing while bringing the required utility is part of the appeal.

    Its not like i-frames in tera let you survive everything without moving. I-frames usualy last for about 0.1 seconds and have significant cooldowns. For many attacks i-frames dont even work and you have to use the dodging/positioning skills to move out of danger in addition to walking because you wouldnt be fast enough with walking alone and mostly dont get far enough with skills alone.
    You'd need to craft a efficient skill set in mostly any game, but to stick with the two games, its easier to simply pick dps skills and dont care for dodging skills instead of considering to leave out some dps bonus to increase the chance to survive.
    If its better or worse to have a especialy challenging game 
    everyone must know themselves.

    Personaly i prefer the hardest games, even if it would be literaly impossible to beat something/many things id be totaly fine with it. I dont need to be the absolute over hero in every game i play to have fun. Its ridiculous how characters get thrown into game worlds to basicaly roll over everything at some point, especialy in mmo's. But thats just my personal opinion ofc.

  • lexmax said:

    Thanks for posting this. I have also posted similar discussions before and completely agree with you. Deep learning technology is not only cheap to implement but it is becoming increasingly plug-and-play.

    While Intrepid haven't said anything specific, what Steven did say about AI sounds promising.
    My pleasure posting this! I'm glad this post does resonates with some people and creates a discussion around the subject. Again I really hope Ashes is looking into this, this would make me even more excited!

    U sum it up pretty nicely as well. Tanks will absolutely not be uselees. They will be more relevent then ever. Placing the correct walls, damage sharing from allies. AGRO management. There will have to be better communication and teamwork to beat the boss.

    The AI Will not be "overpowered". As said before, the mind can be pre-build in alpha and beta. So everyone fights the same boss. It is still bound by its Damage output, HP, armor, resistence etc.. so overpowerd is not in the picture.
    But this won't be an easy task. learning to walk takes 1000 iterations alone probably. And perhaps they should build "player" AI's first. Some tanks, healers, DPS'ers .. so they can use those to train the boss AI's o_o.

    @Dolphin We sure should be able to trick the AI. Healers / dps'ers could be bait :p. When you 'know' how he thinks, you can deceive it :).


  • @Uao hardest game ftw! It also would be really funny to have an unbeatable boss :P
  • And for people that claim that AI can always be defeated, go try and play chess vs supercomputer, then come back and state your opinion again. ;)
  • Gothix said:
    Dygz said:

    If we always had to aim to target, tabbing would be a pointless mechanic.   ;)

    Nah, not pointless. :) As I wrote it could still be usable to track what important mobs (ie. bosses) are doing and what % their HP is, while dealing with other mobs (aiming at them and shooting at them).
    Pointless because that is not the purpose of tab-target, so devs would never implement that.
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