flagging and resources

ArchivedUser

AFAIK, gathering mats is going to require a mule to do in large amounts... but can you gather enough mats without one to satisfy solo play such as upgrading/creating a single item?  Is killing the mule going to result in corruption or just the player?  If you as the player can gather enough for the solo experience (1 item per run), but the mule is required to do things like setup a shop or upgrade your entire gear set, this seems entirely fair to me.  Yes you can gather mats safely to make your gear, but if you want an industry of this it requires protection of some sort this becomes much more feasible.  This would allow a player to kill bots mules without issue, the solo player gets enough to play and enjoy the experience, the pirate/raider gets targets to attack, the guilds get something to defend... seems win win to me and mitigates the risk reward frustration of I just want to make my sword leave me alone problems.
edit:grammar

ArchivedUser

In my opinion, based on other games I played, killing your mount should not cause corruption. However, a mount should also be durable enough for you to react, as well as give you a notification that your mount is under attack.

Killing a mount should require you to turn PK on and once you attack the mount, you go into a state in which people can attack you freely without them getting corrupt if they kill you.

ArchivedUser

1. I'd think you would be able to fill your path with a decent amount of mats without using a mule. One thing i want to note, you're artisan profession is limited so i don't think you are going to be gathering, processing, and crafting all your gear. 
2. After thinking about it, i don't think corruption should be given for killing mules/mounts because they can be used as mini caravans. If you decide to use one for gathering then i think you should be taking a risk. As flip said, you should have to flag as a combatant to attack a mount.

ArchivedUser

You want to take someone elses stuff, you are going to be subject to the same ruleset and penalties that are envisioned.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

You want to take someone elses stuff, you are going to be subject to the same ruleset and penalties that are envisioned.

Currently there is no mechanic penalizing you for attacking and stealing from someones caravan so you think there should be no penalty?

This feels like a case where it's between 2 systems.

If we want mules to be useful but not steal the role of a caravan i'd think they would have to be free game for a combatant to kill.

ArchivedUser

A mule carries 1000 units vs a players 100 vs caravan at 10000 from the last information given out. If you want to allow me to hire guards for my mule. Make the zone around it a declaration of Attack, Defend, or Ignore for all people that approach. And the developers come out and state that the risk/reward of using a mule is similar in profit to a caravan, then sure. Give me the same mechanics. If you are looking for a way to circumvent corruption mechanics so that you can attack green players inventory or those afk without incurring penalities as a way of drawing them into unwanted pvp, then my response to you would likely get me moderated.

ArchivedUser

If you are gathering resources in small amounts needed for just yourself playing the PvE game, then you shouldn't need a mule.  If you are playing the larger economic game then it is a cutthroat PvP game (unless npc's start trading commodities, weird idea.)  This is not unwanted PvP, this is the player going from getting small negligible amounts needed to gear one person to directly competing against other players economically. The economic game is at the core PvP, Some of it violent, some of it through trade and playing the market, but everything you do to profit in any large scale is going to take away profit from others who you are competing or player vs player against. Just want to come home, adventure, gain character progression, sure no big.  Want to gather enough resources to potentially disturb the market and maybe drive down a competitors prices though?

ArchivedUser

While you may have noble intentions of creating a pvp utopia where everyone is on an equal level for fighting back, for most this is simply an issue of being able to take stuff without repercussions. I am not your content if I choose not to be. Make mules a ffa loot fest and I will sit outside every starter zone and wait for new players to come out on their mount and kill it for shits and giggles while I am at level 50 and they are at 10.
The flagging system and penalties via corruption work as a deterrent as long as they are applied across the board. Trying to make exceptions allows people to twist the intention. It happens every time.

ArchivedUser

see this logic would be nice and all but if you just let people gather freely while green which is what this system enforces right now then your going to run into the same problem the majority of games has which is bot/gold seller issues

sure 1 person running around green gathering then jumping on a mule shouldnt break the economy but 300-500 will destroy all the economy and you know what happens to people trying to prevent this oh look your gears destroyed guess that was a good result for the health of the game

im not saying you should be allowed to attack lowbies on mounts i just think there should be a debuff on mounts that have resources where they become free to kill without corruption and if a person recently gathered on a super low account like level 1-10   I really dont want to see this game fail but if it stays this way for the gathering/flagging system you will see it die after awhile just like other games and even if we use the excuse that we can ban bots the economy will still be hit with the repercussions

like i said above just make mounts with resources free to kill not mounts without resources they should still give corruption

ArchivedUser

After reading about the active and passive measures that Intrepid plans for those that try to bot, rmt, or exploit I feel confident that while it will always be an issue, it will not be rampant to the same extent you have in f2p/b2p games. The main drawback for those people is a sub game that is willing to spend the resources to combat them from the beginning. So the argument that I want to implement a limited condition exception to be able to kill bots doesn't pan out. There will be active mods on every server responding to reports of automated behaviour. The days when only those with powerful machines with extra resources were able to capture content and screenshots and attach them to reports are long behind us. The combination of an active community and background programs like Panopticon will make it unprofitable for those people to try and automate, knowing that they will lose the account and have to spend yet another sub fee.
It comes down to yet another argument by people trying to get around the corruption mechanic by being able to attack people without repercussions. If people are flagged purple, go for it, they either desire pvp, or have through their own actions have put themselves in a situation that allows it. Want to screw with someone who is minding their own business gathering flowers, but you have decided they are YOUR flowers and no green scrub is going to get them, attack away, but realize if you do it trying to take their stuff, you are going to pay the penalty.

ArchivedUser

if a mule can carry 1/10th of a caravan's contents then i'd think people would try to use it to circumvent the pvp mechanic of the caravan system. Like the caravan, i see the mule as a risk vs reward thing. You can use the mule to gather or transport more materials but you risk someone coming, killing it, and taking some resources. You don't have to defend it so you are still safe and you still have the resources in your inventory.

ArchivedUser

honestly, I don't think you can ride a mule, I think it's literally a porter npc that follows you around carrying your stuff.  I may be wrong, but that's why I don't think it would trigger corruption.  Just my take on it though.

ArchivedUser

I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. Maybe there is a system where in order for it to be used as a mule you have to put your goods on it instead of getting on yourself.

There is this picture though but as i said, it's maybe not being used as a mule in this picture.

ArchivedUser

They will eventually let us know, and those in Alpha 0 in two months will be able to find out, though with the NDA those of us not in it won't hear about it till later.
I imagine they will have it like any other game that if attacked you are knocked off your mount at a certain percentage of damage to keep people from just running away from attackers. If that is the case and they go with killing mules doesn't flag for corruption, under the current mechanics I am just going to farm the hell out of peoples mules and kill their mounts just for fun. Sure, some people may attack back, but still doesn't stop what the corruption mechanics are there for to penalize me for attacking people who are much lower in level or ability to fight back.
I attack someone riding their horse, flag purple, knock them off their horse, kill the horse, loot what is on it and continue on my merry way, not flagging red because I purposefully did not kill the toon, just the horse.
I attack someones mule, flag purple, kill it, loot it, and continue on hunting for others with mules out.
Sure, those people have the option of attacking back, which will then flag them purple, and no real penalty for me either way.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

... I imagine they will have it like any other game that if attacked you are knocked off your mount at a certain percentage of damage t...

I made the assumption that the mule is not the character.  I imagine attacking someone who is mounted will flag for corruption.  It depends on the balance I guess, if what you can carry is enough to sustain a character and all their gear I don't see an issue as its an optional increase to risk/reward, it's only if you need a mule worth of resources to keep gear repaired etc. that I see an issue.

ArchivedUser

I agree with USE here. But I could be completely ok with them falling under the same provisions of caravans.

Free kills with no corruption or flagging though is just way to easy to exploit for ass hat behavior. Risk vrs reward is good for mule gathering and transporting, but risk vrs reward is good for stealing from caravans and mules also.

Murder is corruption..
Stealing is Corruption.,..

I mean if doing those things brings you enjoyment, and it is a game. Then all the power to you. But can we stop with how it should be consequence free.

ArchivedUser

Mules can be a separate thing from mounts just like caravans are so they can punish players for killing noob mounts and still have a risk associated with mules.

Although, I would be entertained to find out how your server community treats you for killing everyone's mount.

ArchivedUser

I was giving an example. If there is a way for people to propogate dickish behaviour it will happen. Barrens chat anyone? I don't mind pvp at all and am ready and willing to get spanked or to burn down someone elses house. I don't want to be harassed by idiots whose idea of a fun session is screwing with other peoples play. The people that are pro this idea of mules being not connected to a characters flagging are just looking for easy loot. Sort of like the Japanese use as an argument for killing whales that it is pest control because they eat too many fish in the ocean. You just want to eat whale.

ArchivedUser

All i get from this is that people want safe trade aka mules to be a thing which in the long term is bad look at aa they have a risk vs reward style commerce system but do people often go on the sea for the big
money nope

They do the insanely safe trade route and benefit more then the people willing to risk stuff. 

And like i said in my post the best solutions to this is to give mules that have resources a debuff so that they dont trigger corruption i could care less about USE trolling statement cause trolls will troll even with this system in


But punishing the people that can bring some content into the game with banditing 
Which will die quickly out without a change to the mule 

ArchivedUser

• pro this idea ... are just looking for easy loot

I'd be the one hauling mules, not attacking them so no.  Not everyone who wants this wants "easy" loot. MMO's and resource gathering are boring as hell, and this would make it both challenging and interesting.  Running trade packs is only fun through pvp zones, otherwise it is grindy as all hell. 

• I don't want to be harassed by idiots whose idea of a fun session is screwing with other peoples play.

I pose it as a purely optional mechanic that would not negatively impact a character if they did not partake, just an additional incentive to take bigger risks. Hell maybe make a rideable mule with a weight cap balanced for the lesser risk... but I honestly expect that's what carrying your harvest already is, as the real risk/reward should be PvP.  Yes you should be able to play safe and not have to face any danger if that is what you wish and I clearly expressed this in my first post, however taking risk should reward you with possible better returns.  As I've clearly stated that this should be an optional mechanic like leaving the peace zones in archeage, what griefing could occur except for what you invite on yourself?  Don't want to risk it, don't do it, and laugh at us idiots when our mules are stolen or bemoan our success when we return with the spoils. As long as it is purely optional, again, purely optional, I do not see the downsides you are talking about.  This is not archeage, and without P2W you wont see the gear score disparity that made that game require either opening your wallet or running packs 40 hours a week, this should give an edge, not catapult you over the top, and absolutely should not be required to be competitive.
edit: grammar

ArchivedUser

near2doom said:

All i get from this is that people want safe trade aka mules to be a thing which in the long term is bad look at aa they have a risk vs reward style commerce system but do people often go on the sea for the big
money nope

...
But punishing the people that can bring some content into the game with banditing 
Which will die quickly out without a change to the mule

exactly my point, I think I was one of the only idiots who would routinely lonewolf packs cross continents when I played.  I didn't have mythic sails and propellant, would get chased down regularly, but it was so much fun that I ran at least one pack a day, usually 3-4 and had about a 50/50 success rate.  While a 10x resource reward may be too high, I want that.  Sailing through difficult waters and destroying in the AH via my farm are what made that game for me.

and because the forums ate my last post...

• pro this idea ... are just looking for easy loot

I'd be the one hauling mules, not attacking them so no.  Not everyone who wants this wants "easy" loot. MMO's and resource gathering are boring as hell, and this would make it both challenging and interesting.  Running trade packs is only fun through pvp zones, otherwise it is grindy as all hell. 

• I don't want to be harassed by idiots whose idea of a fun session is screwing with other peoples play.

I pose it as a purely optional mechanic that would not negatively impact a character if they did not partake, just an additional incentive to take bigger risks. Hell maybe make a rideable mule with a weight cap balanced for the lesser risk... but I honestly expect that's what carrying your harvest already is as the real risk/reward should be PvP.  Yes you should be able to play safe and not have to face any danger if that is what you wish and I clearly expressed this in my first post, however taking risk should reward you with possible better returns.  As I've clearly stated that this should be an optional mechanic like leaving the peace zones in archeage, what griefing could occur except for what you invite on yourself?  Don't want to risk it, don't do it, and laugh at us idiots when our mules are stolen or bemoan our success when we return with the spoils. As long as it is purely optional, again, purely optional, I do not see the downsides you are talking about.  This is not archeage, and without P2W you wont see the gear score disparity that made that game require either opening your wallet or running packs 40 hours a week, this should give an edge, not catapult you over the top, and absolutely should not be required to be competitive.

ArchivedUser

IMO killing someones mule contantly or just one builds up to your corruption.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

I was giving an example. If there is a way for people to propogate dickish behaviour it will happen. Barrens chat anyone? I don't mind pvp at all and am ready and willing to get spanked or to burn down someone elses house. I don't want to be harassed by idiots whose idea of a fun session is screwing with other peoples play. The people that are pro this idea of mules being not connected to a characters flagging are just looking for easy loot. Sort of like the Japanese use as an argument for killing whales that it is pest control because they eat too many fish in the ocean. You just want to eat whale.

Why are you so toxic and declare what people's motives are? Do you honestly believe that or is it a lazy attempt to discredit your opponents? 

Keep in mind this opinion is formed with my current understanding of the system. I said my reason for not wanting corruption is i worry that mules would be used to circumvent the caravan system. Our current understanding is that they can carry 1/10th of what a caravan's wait is. I may be wrong but i don't think people will be filling caravans up and doing more frequent runs with a mule would be optimal for the average player. This is just my feeling.

As bard said, this is a pvp game. I don't think you need to demonize people for discussing pvp in a pvp game. If you think mules should be included included in the corruption system then tell me why instead of insulting me. How would you make it so that people still want to use caravans? Would mule have corruption but drop more?  what's the situations where someone would pick one over the other?

ArchivedUser

gonna just put the tried and true method to win with this system into here so that it gets abused until it gets fixed 

CARAVANS ARE A WASTE OF TIME why run something that holds 10,000 weight when you can have 10 guildies run 1000 weight each on mules and if they die the killers cant even take the resources because they cant carry more then 100 plus at that point the little bit they did take of your 10k spread across all the mules instantly gets taken back by the 5 guildies you have as bounty hunters because they get marked on the map and hunted down because Corruption=GoodGameplay

OR you dont get attacked with this method because your moving 10k weight under the radar and the people who do see you will instantly get punished by the karma system

Now we can back and forth this stuff all day/night and every game cycle but it comes down to this and only this if you give a player a inch they will take a mile 

Now if you enjoy your games economy instantly being shit and everyone mass hauling resources under the radar with zero downside then hey this will be the game for you if this system stays 

How can we fix these issues:
1. Mules get a debuff when transporting any amount of resources above 100 weight which makes it a corruption free thing to kill. 
2. Move gathering nodes to PvP zones or make them create a pvp zone around the node
3. Make it so you can use Gold/silver/money to remove the corruption or have it go into effect later on down the line really wouldnt advise this one but it is a option

or sarcastic option 4. leave it as it is and watch the game bomb over the course of launch lower its player base and slowly killing its reputation halting new players 



Reasons: 1. Mules arent shown on the map atleast to my knowledge wont be shown as blatantly as caravans 
2. because of reason "1" caravans are made useless because of the lack of risk to lose massive amounts of things 
3. Its been done in pvp games with a commerce system before and its ended badly each time 
4.keep the very basics of crafting materials in non pvp zones but make the stuff to make better gear be behind a pvp wall 


The corruption system has a lot of good intent behind it and in some aspects of the system its very good like high levels killing lowbies/newbies or repeated murder of the same person BUT PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS GO ON THIS WAY OR YOUR GAME WILL CRASH AND BURN BY YOUR OWN INGAME MECHANICS LIKE MANY BEFORE

But hey intrepid dont listen to me ive only seen tons of these games crash and burn because you catered to the community instead of saying suck it up this is supposed to be a intrestin pvx game not a pve game which is what it aims to be with the current balance

TL:DR why run caravans when mules are 100x safe with lack of a giant zone around it screaming kill me and can carry 1/10 the amount of a carvan can whos up for 100 mule runs  

TL:DR 2: If you keep this system the bots will ruin your game instantly the damage will be done straight away no amount of mod intervention will save the game from instant game damage outside of roll backs and we all know how gamers love role backs

ArchivedUser

Fleelix said:

IMO killing someones mule contantly or just one builds up to your corruption.

If we are to debate this people need to understand the solution i am giving you is not to go around killing peoples mounts.   "ITS TO GIVE MOUNTS THAT ARE OVER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WEIGHT AKA MULES A DEBUFF THAT MAKES THEM A CORRUPTION FREE KILL"




oh 1 more thing im not saying dont use this karma system im all for anti griefing im not saying remove corruption from the game im only saying make mules like caravans or make em not give corruption 

and once agian it most be stated because people like USE love to twist words Im suggesting give mules that have a certain amount of weight a debuff that makes killing them a corruption free kill. Not players horses not their pet zebra not their pet motherfing bluejay.   The mule thats all that needs to be fixed this one simple object needs to be changed simplest answer to all this

ArchivedUser

ArchivedUser

Honestly I don't think you should be able to kill the mule, you target the player kill the player, you then get access to any resources the mule was carrying. To which point you will need a mule of your own to carry the loot away potentially, though you only get a % of the resources or all of it I cant remember.
But honestly you attack some ones property that is right there with them you flag but only time will tell if this is the case.
But then perhaps it works like this, you have too much harvested to carry you have to use your mule, mules count as mini caravans thus you plot your course to get to your freehold/town, and become flagged as a combatant. This is the risk you take with transporting those extra goods, so much just is not known at this point. Just keep it civil peeps.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

Run out of arguments - post a meme - feel like a victor. 

ArchivedUser

ArchivedUser

sigh I think this is becoming off-topic. maybe you should just wait till some more info come out before fighting each other 

ArchivedUser

@nagash meh its how conversations tend to get people dont want to hear the hard truth of the fact that having features like this in the game will eventually kill it 

like many people said a really simple fix would to make the mule into a mini caravan zone best and simplest fix