@hatered The line should be drawn, when rights of speech are breached. When racism occurs thats a breech of this. I understand that the report system or what can you really do situation occurs, that's why mute is necessary I agree. But if it becomes frequent enough and the violations continue an account should be flagged and actions should be eventually taken if evidence is taken.
I understand young kids talking and not understanding their actions having consequences, I get the idea of people trolling is a thing, but a line should be drawn somewhere. That line should be and most likely will be when you agree to the disclaimer at the beginning of the game (where most people just hit accept and don't read the fine print) Really it will be up to Intrepid on the what there stance will be and I cant see a company seeing them turn a complete blind eye to the overly toxic community or rude behavior. Even Wow has rules/regulations in regards to toxic behavior from chat banns to complete accounts being IP Banned.
@gundel Ashes is the perfect environment for confrontation, if someone is hating on you then kill him, declare war, attack his caravans, siege his castle, attack his node. I don't want Ashes to be turned into a glorified chat room, there should be stories and adventures, sometimes you need villans to make that fun.
I think the voice chat is an interesting idea, but it could be hard to do properly when there are 50+ people in the tavern. I personally LOVE the idea of parlor games because it can let people do other things with friends they meet in game besides just the game, it opens another social aspect, and it will have people sticking around an area that will then be used to recruit for quests ect. Kind of reminds me like how people used to hang out in capitals alot in other games.
There is no way VOIP can be policed. No way IS would be able to afford that many in game GMs around the clock. Its not even a close to reasonable expectation .
Text chat.... sure, there will be logs that can be parsed and still be cost effective. But Voice comms, no way.
"But if it becomes frequent enough and the violations continue an account
should be flagged and actions should be eventually taken if evidence is
taken."
How would there be repeat offenses? If you are muting them the first time someone says something you don't like.... problem solved. No more violations.
Just asked Steven on stream. There will be the option to mute specific people and join different "chat groups". That is what I suspected, and a good move. I personally like the idea, if its a no go, early testing should be able to see that, and it can be removed, but I want to give it a try!
Fair enough, like I said as long as there's things in place that can deal with it.
@Elder I agree it breeds conflict and could make meaningful siege fights due to a tavern scuffle.
I agree it would be difficult to police voice chats, Over-watch is a great example of how hard it is to report someone for verbal abuse over voice chat, and they have an extremely toxic community partly due to that issue.
Like I agree with what everyone has really suggested in this forum its mainly for pointing out somethings and bring the attention of possible issues, so I thank you all for your contribution to this post,
How would there be repeat offenses? If you are muting them the first time someone says something you don't like.... problem solved. No more violations.
This is the most pertinent statement in the debate. If you mute/ignore someone you will never know of their continued toxicity.
If you do not mute/ignore them, then you are either lazy, stupid, apathetic to an insane degree or a masochist.
If everyone mutes/ignores all the dipshits and trolls the problem goes away pretty quick.
If Ashes population would be big enough, I would certainly look forward to RP servers (with stricter RP rules), PvE servers (where people can't be attacked if they don't wish), and PvP servers (with perma flagging and no corruption).
With population large enough, that could work great. However, if Ashes will have several servers for different world regions, and then additionally split them to PvE, PvP, RP, in each of regions, server may end up very low populated (again, depending on player interest in Ashes).
This is why I think Intrepid is doing smart choice, having 1 common server in each region to be ready for no so large population, and then IF population ends up large enough, and they will need to open new servers, then they can consider opening different types of servers, and implementing patch to configure servers with different rule sets.
I don't understand your point of concern... if you want a roleplay environment, build your own node, become mayor and enforce it. Let everyone know it as Megs Roleplay Node (although you can't name the node) and anyone who enters must understand that it is a roleplay environment. People would respect that, I know I would. .
Thanks for being interested in trying to understand, but I think I'm done with trying to explain to people why it feels like intrepid isn't taking heavy rpers playstyle into consideration.
I and others will play, we will make our own story. This isn't going to change that.
But how would you feel as a PvPer with extreme debuffs for killing? I know because Ive listened. What about having to repeat quests over and over as a PvEer? Yeah not good.
Well, having been sold an inclusiveworld where all are welcome, it seems that nothing will change for rpers. Same old tune, different day.
I hope to be able to interact with you all, it was just a massive let down to hear that Ashes, with all of the mmoRPg talk, doesn't appear to understand how the choices they make will change the behaviour of roleplayers.
I heard once again today from someone in discord the silly fallacy that heavy roleplay is exclusive by nature.... nope, that's a nurture, an environmental thing. If you let us, if you nurture a culture that persuades people to react positively, it can be otherwise.
I Sadly no longer believe that Ashes will be that, but heh, We've had worse games, but we've also had better (as things have been currently voiced), and once again we'll do as we always do, eat the broccoli we're given and pretend it's icecream
@Megs I wish you would not give up. I really don’t think I understand
your concerns, at all. You seem to have reacted really badly to this latest
blog regarding taverns, and I don’t really understand why.
Is the issue that taverns used to be a place in other MMOs
where the RPers would hang out and RP, and where non-RPers never bothered to
congregate because there was very little to do there (taverns just being
another empty building in a town)? And with Intrepid making taverns something a
little more useful and inclusive to the wider populace, this has caused these
previous havens of RPing to become highly populated areas that will no longer
be suitable for RPing?
If this is the case, and the cause for your concern, I would
love to know. I don’t RP, not my thing outside of pen & paper in-person
groups, so I don’t have any real exposure to the RP community in MMOs. I do
understand that there are major misconceptions as to what RP actually is, and
most people don’t want to learn because even if you are a nerd there are some
levels of nerdery that seem to be somehow more nerdy than others (strange I
know, outsiders finding issue with other outsiders because their particular
brand of weird is somehow different, but here we are).
Then again in groups I have played D&D and other pen
& paper games, there has always been one or two people who don’t want to
really RP as their character but they still love playing the game. The fact
that the rest of us do RP doesn’t really bother them. I know computer games are
very different as you can’t vet every single person with whom you come into
contact, and the exposure is in the hundreds and thousands not just the handful
of people you play with by choice.
As sad as I feel it is to say, I do wish there were separate
RP servers. I don’t really like player segregation but it does seem as if RPers
can’t enjoy a game unless they are on their own. I just don’t know if there are
enough of you guys to warrant a full server from Intrepid. I have no idea of
the numbers of RPers in other games, nor how many are interested in Ashes.
Regarding the voice thing. I don't mind as long as it has the same setting in options as alot of other online games with voicechat start having now ... aka the "fully disable voicechat" button, disabling both yours as well as everyone elses voicechat for you.
Yes, same like in PvP. Everyone should be treated equal, you don't agree?
When we just want to PvX, we can get killed.... how is that not equality. You can have fun killing us, at the risk of corruption We can have fun playing in the world , with the risk of being killed by someone more cunning than an ai. Equality everywhere, right now. Please don't make the assumption that we humble PvErs don't have any equivalent downside similar to corruption, if not, there wouldn't have been requests for a PvE only server.
@Gothix The difference being the arena, sieges and guild wars. There is more then enough content for PvPrs without them having to run around ganking stranger's.
The reason you get punished so hard for killing people without reason is because it is murder. Murder is a thing in Ashes and if you want to be a murderer then you'll be treated as one.
@Gothix The difference being the arena, sieges and guild wars. There is more then enough content for PvPrs without them having to run around ganking stranger's.
You are completely wrong about what PvP-ers want.
PvP-ers want feeling of freedom, feeling of danger everywhere. The need to walk around with sharp senses, and likelyhood of being engaged everywhere and not just in "designated areas".
This likelyhood does NOT exist if corruption (harshly) punishes the attacks and thievery.
WoW had PvE servers with all the PvP mini games and arenas. It also had PvP servers with open and unrestricted PvP.
Where do you think PvP-ers played? Yeah that's right, on PvP servers. And why is that if (by your claims) they only need constricted PvP content and it's enough?
Ashes claims to be PvX conflict based MMO, with trading and thievery, and risk vs reward.
If corruption will end up very punishing and stat diminishing, while incentive to flag up and attack someone only gets you few pieces of ore he was carrying, who in the right mind you think will flag up ?
That's right. No one at all. Or extremely very few that don't care about their characters. This server essentially becomes PvE server with PvP mini games, while only pretending to be PvX.
Ashes PvP system was designed around meaningful combat, to heavily punish people for turning the game into a gank box but reward people for choosing to PvP at the appropriate times.
This isn't call of duty it's a roleplaying game set in a high fantasy world, How much roleplaying and Immersion do you think we'll have if stranger's are killing each other all the time. How do you suppose running a tavern would be viable if every third person you run into wants to murder you. Its a society, if you want to be apart of it you have to follow the rules, if not then be ready to accept the consequences.
So you have Caravans, Ships, Arenas, Castle Sieges, Node Wars, Guild Wars, Bountys, Duels, Whatever is used to decide the leader of a military node and Open World PvP. But I suppose the PvErs are being selfish for wanting an anti-camping mechanic so they can actually get out of spawn.
Edit: thievery isn't a thing in Ashes and I don't think you drop gear unless you have corruption. If you want to PvP for profit use the caravan system.
@Gothix The difference being the arena, sieges and guild wars. There is more then enough content for PvPrs without them having to run around ganking stranger's.
You are completely wrong about what PvP-ers want.
PvP-ers want feeling of freedom, feeling of danger everywhere. The need to walk around with sharp senses, and likelyhood of being engaged everywhere and not just in "designated areas".
Well I won't comment as if I am the spokesperson for every PvPer, but I PvP a lot. It has traditionally been what I have spent the majority of my time doing in MMOs (in Ashes I am looking forward to some solid crafting as I think that is going to actually be enjoyable in this game).
I chose PvP servers when available because this would mean that there would be people of a similar mindset to me and that the level of challenge would be higher on that server as the skills for PvP would also be higher. There would be more opportunities and things like battlegrounds and arenas would be higher populated and hence provide me with more opportunities.
When I PvP, I want challenge - a challenge that PvE cannot provide due to the scripted nature and limited AI. I want the excitement of fighting against another player that is using all their skills to take me down and it will be a true test of what we can do.
Challenge for me is fun. I find nothing fun about killing someone that either cannot, or does not want to, fight back. I would derive ZERO satisfaction from killing people who just stood there and let me kill them or who tried to run. Both of these behaviours indicate that these other players (yes real people playing a game, not some computer script) do not want to participate.
I have what is called empathy and this allows me to realise that if I continue to PvP someone that does not want to be a part of that activity, that I am actually negatively impacting their gametime for no other reason than my own personal satisfaction. I am not roleplaying a murderous douche in game, I am just being one.
I will actively seek out players that are flagged because this indicates that they want to fight - which not only provides me with the challenge I seek, but it also means that I am also going to give them what they want. This is called a WIN-WIN situation.
There are, no doubt, many different types of PvPers out there, and they all want something slightly different. If you are looking for that sense of danger then always ensure you are flagged, everywhere you go. I guarantee that sense of danger will follow you always. But please don't try and project that onto other people.
The statement I have quoted projects your sense of how the game should work onto every other player. You are not talking about what you want, you are talking about what you want everyone else to feel about you. You can find this "feeling of freedom, feeling of danger everywhere", it has nothing to do with unflagged players, these players will not affect you.
Even if everyone was constantly flagged and there were no penalties, as you wish to happen, you would still feel no danger from the players you seem intent on attacking, as they might now be flagged, but they still have no interest in fighting you, just preferring to explore or gather or quest.
So your system does not actually provide you with what you purport to want because the system is not changing the mindset of those other players. The flagging system and corruption mechanic will not negatively impact your wish for danger or PvP. Not in any way.
What it will impact is your ability to force this "feeling of freedom" onto players who do not wish it.
Even if everyone was constantly flagged and there were no penalties, as you wish to happen, you would still feel no danger from the players you seem intent on attacking, as they might now be flagged, but they still have no interest in fighting you, just preferring to explore or gather or quest.
So your system does not actually provide you with what you purport to want because the system is not changing the mindset of those other players.
Yes but those other player who would like to attack, but don't want to because of punishing corruption, would if corruption is not there, or at least if it was less punishing. And THESE players change everything. They make the world interesting place where you have to watch out.
With punishing corruption, they will not attack, and world becomes boring place, where you AFK auto run from spot A to spot B.
Oh look....a distraction... I wonder what it could have been....
@Gothix , I'm confident from what they've said that you will get the game you hope for. Walking in danger with other PvPers who are happy to share in your playstyle should be totally available. Plus you get all of the sieges caravans etc... Corruption is just there to be a risk of forcing death on those unwilling to join in, and a fair one at that.
If you thought I was insulting you you're mistaken. Ashes isn't going to have the PvP you want and if it did it would ruin the game in so many ways. You should look into a moba like Leauge or Dota, Paragon isn't bad if you don't mind the first person view.
Comments
I understand young kids talking and not understanding their actions having consequences, I get the idea of people trolling is a thing, but a line should be drawn somewhere. That line should be and most likely will be when you agree to the disclaimer at the beginning of the game (where most people just hit accept and don't read the fine print) Really it will be up to Intrepid on the what there stance will be and I cant see a company seeing them turn a complete blind eye to the overly toxic community or rude behavior. Even Wow has rules/regulations in regards to toxic behavior from chat banns to complete accounts being IP Banned.
Text chat.... sure, there will be logs that can be parsed and still be cost effective. But Voice comms, no way.
"But if it becomes frequent enough and the violations continue an account should be flagged and actions should be eventually taken if evidence is taken."
How would there be repeat offenses? If you are muting them the first time someone says something you don't like.... problem solved. No more violations.
@Elder I agree it breeds conflict and could make meaningful siege fights due to a tavern scuffle.
I agree it would be difficult to police voice chats, Over-watch is a great example of how hard it is to report someone for verbal abuse over voice chat, and they have an extremely toxic community partly due to that issue.
Like I agree with what everyone has really suggested in this forum its mainly for pointing out somethings and bring the attention of possible issues, so I thank you all for your contribution to this post,
If you do not mute/ignore them, then you are either lazy, stupid, apathetic to an insane degree or a masochist.
If everyone mutes/ignores all the dipshits and trolls the problem goes away pretty quick.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/36215/how-to-stop-public-toxic-in-game-game-chat/p1
Voice chat or text, the issue is the same
With population large enough, that could work great. However, if Ashes will have several servers for different world regions, and then additionally split them to PvE, PvP, RP, in each of regions, server may end up very low populated (again, depending on player interest in Ashes).
This is why I think Intrepid is doing smart choice, having 1 common server in each region to be ready for no so large population, and then IF population ends up large enough, and they will need to open new servers, then they can consider opening different types of servers, and implementing patch to configure servers with different rule sets.
I don't understand your point of concern... if you want a roleplay environment, build your own node, become mayor and enforce it. Let everyone know it as Megs Roleplay Node (although you can't name the node) and anyone who enters must understand that it is a roleplay environment. People would respect that, I know I would. .
I and others will play, we will make our own story. This isn't going to change that.
But how would you feel as a PvPer with extreme debuffs for killing? I know because Ive listened.
What about having to repeat quests over and over as a PvEer? Yeah not good.
Well, having been sold an inclusive world where all are welcome, it seems that nothing will change for rpers.
Same old tune, different day.
I hope to be able to interact with you all, it was just a massive let down to hear that Ashes, with all of the mmoRPg talk, doesn't appear to understand how the choices they make will change the behaviour of roleplayers.
I heard once again today from someone in discord the silly fallacy that heavy roleplay is exclusive by nature.... nope, that's a nurture, an environmental thing. If you let us, if you nurture a culture that persuades people to react positively, it can be otherwise.
I Sadly no longer believe that Ashes will be that, but heh, We've had worse games, but we've also had better (as things have been currently voiced), and once again we'll do as we always do, eat the broccoli we're given and pretend it's icecream
@Megs I wish you would not give up. I really don’t think I understand your concerns, at all. You seem to have reacted really badly to this latest blog regarding taverns, and I don’t really understand why.
Is the issue that taverns used to be a place in other MMOs where the RPers would hang out and RP, and where non-RPers never bothered to congregate because there was very little to do there (taverns just being another empty building in a town)? And with Intrepid making taverns something a little more useful and inclusive to the wider populace, this has caused these previous havens of RPing to become highly populated areas that will no longer be suitable for RPing?
If this is the case, and the cause for your concern, I would love to know. I don’t RP, not my thing outside of pen & paper in-person groups, so I don’t have any real exposure to the RP community in MMOs. I do understand that there are major misconceptions as to what RP actually is, and most people don’t want to learn because even if you are a nerd there are some levels of nerdery that seem to be somehow more nerdy than others (strange I know, outsiders finding issue with other outsiders because their particular brand of weird is somehow different, but here we are).
Then again in groups I have played D&D and other pen & paper games, there has always been one or two people who don’t want to really RP as their character but they still love playing the game. The fact that the rest of us do RP doesn’t really bother them. I know computer games are very different as you can’t vet every single person with whom you come into contact, and the exposure is in the hundreds and thousands not just the handful of people you play with by choice.
As sad as I feel it is to say, I do wish there were separate RP servers. I don’t really like player segregation but it does seem as if RPers can’t enjoy a game unless they are on their own. I just don’t know if there are enough of you guys to warrant a full server from Intrepid. I have no idea of the numbers of RPers in other games, nor how many are interested in Ashes.
Unfortunately, I feel this is coming to us.
Non PvP crowd is too loud in the forums, so I have a feeling corruption debuff will end up pretty harsh...
For example you are only legally allowed to kill 100 animals per day, otherwise you are exploiting the nature and get corruption yourself.
Or legally gather only 100 resources per day, any more than that would be considered exploiting the nature, and would give you corruption.
Yes, same like in PvP. Everyone should be treated equal, you don't agree?
how is that not equality.
You can have fun killing us, at the risk of corruption
We can have fun playing in the world , with the risk of being killed by someone more cunning than an ai.
Equality everywhere, right now.
Please don't make the assumption that we humble PvErs don't have any equivalent downside similar to corruption, if not, there wouldn't have been requests for a PvE only server.
The reason you get punished so hard for killing people without reason is because it is murder. Murder is a thing in Ashes and if you want to be a murderer then you'll be treated as one.
You are completely wrong about what PvP-ers want.
PvP-ers want feeling of freedom, feeling of danger everywhere. The need to walk around with sharp senses, and likelyhood of being engaged everywhere and not just in "designated areas".
This likelyhood does NOT exist if corruption (harshly) punishes the attacks and thievery.
WoW had PvE servers with all the PvP mini games and arenas. It also had PvP servers with open and unrestricted PvP.
Where do you think PvP-ers played? Yeah that's right, on PvP servers. And why is that if (by your claims) they only need constricted PvP content and it's enough?
Ashes claims to be PvX conflict based MMO, with trading and thievery, and risk vs reward.
If corruption will end up very punishing and stat diminishing, while incentive to flag up and attack someone only gets you few pieces of ore he was carrying, who in the right mind you think will flag up ?
That's right. No one at all. Or extremely very few that don't care about their characters.
This server essentially becomes PvE server with PvP mini games, while only pretending to be PvX.
I really hope this is not what Intrepid wants.
That's not what constricted means.
Ashes PvP system was designed around meaningful combat, to heavily punish people for turning the game into a gank box but reward people for choosing to PvP at the appropriate times.
This isn't call of duty it's a roleplaying game set in a high fantasy world, How much roleplaying and Immersion do you think we'll have if stranger's are killing each other all the time. How do you suppose running a tavern would be viable if every third person you run into wants to murder you. Its a society, if you want to be apart of it you have to follow the rules, if not then be ready to accept the consequences.
So you have Caravans, Ships, Arenas, Castle Sieges, Node Wars, Guild Wars, Bountys, Duels, Whatever is used to decide the leader of a military node and Open World PvP. But I suppose the PvErs are being selfish for wanting an anti-camping mechanic so they can actually get out of spawn.
Edit: thievery isn't a thing in Ashes and I don't think you drop gear unless you have corruption. If you want to PvP for profit use the caravan system.
I chose PvP servers when available because this would mean that there would be people of a similar mindset to me and that the level of challenge would be higher on that server as the skills for PvP would also be higher. There would be more opportunities and things like battlegrounds and arenas would be higher populated and hence provide me with more opportunities.
When I PvP, I want challenge - a challenge that PvE cannot provide due to the scripted nature and limited AI. I want the excitement of fighting against another player that is using all their skills to take me down and it will be a true test of what we can do.
Challenge for me is fun. I find nothing fun about killing someone that either cannot, or does not want to, fight back. I would derive ZERO satisfaction from killing people who just stood there and let me kill them or who tried to run. Both of these behaviours indicate that these other players (yes real people playing a game, not some computer script) do not want to participate.
I have what is called empathy and this allows me to realise that if I continue to PvP someone that does not want to be a part of that activity, that I am actually negatively impacting their gametime for no other reason than my own personal satisfaction. I am not roleplaying a murderous douche in game, I am just being one.
I will actively seek out players that are flagged because this indicates that they want to fight - which not only provides me with the challenge I seek, but it also means that I am also going to give them what they want. This is called a WIN-WIN situation.
There are, no doubt, many different types of PvPers out there, and they all want something slightly different. If you are looking for that sense of danger then always ensure you are flagged, everywhere you go. I guarantee that sense of danger will follow you always. But please don't try and project that onto other people.
The statement I have quoted projects your sense of how the game should work onto every other player. You are not talking about what you want, you are talking about what you want everyone else to feel about you. You can find this "feeling of freedom, feeling of danger everywhere", it has nothing to do with unflagged players, these players will not affect you.
Even if everyone was constantly flagged and there were no penalties, as you wish to happen, you would still feel no danger from the players you seem intent on attacking, as they might now be flagged, but they still have no interest in fighting you, just preferring to explore or gather or quest.
So your system does not actually provide you with what you purport to want because the system is not changing the mindset of those other players. The flagging system and corruption mechanic will not negatively impact your wish for danger or PvP. Not in any way.
What it will impact is your ability to force this "feeling of freedom" onto players who do not wish it.
Yes but those other player who would like to attack, but don't want to because of punishing corruption, would if corruption is not there, or at least if it was less punishing. And THESE players change everything. They make the world interesting place where you have to watch out.
With punishing corruption, they will not attack, and world becomes boring place, where you AFK auto run from spot A to spot B.
It would be an AMAZING tavern!
I want one just like that! I get in, and every third player wants to murder me.
I think you might be better off playing a moba.
Well I think you might be better off playing a tetris.
@Gothix , I'm confident from what they've said that you will get the game you hope for. Walking in danger with other PvPers who are happy to share in your playstyle should be totally available.
Plus you get all of the sieges caravans etc...
Corruption is just there to be a risk of forcing death on those unwilling to join in, and a fair one at that.