I think that crafting is going to be THE biggest culture shock for most players when AoC launches. We can only truly master one aspect of all of these professions - I don't think that can be emphasised enough.
We have been told that while we can choose to put our artisan points in more than one field, we will not have enough points to truly master a single profession if we do so.
This is a huge fracturing of the professions among the community and is a gargantuan difference from most of the popular MMOs on the market at the moment. We even have games like ESO and FFXIV that allow you to be literally eveything if you spend enough time on them.
The crafting system is far more integral to the mechanics of the game, the structure of the community and the longevity of the product than all of the PvP systems put together.
I hope that the next blog post is devoted to exploring crafting in a more meaningful way as I believe that it really is the part of the game that can make or break Ashes.
That being said, I am excited for the system, to see people actually need each other and for the community to really exist on the back of this synergy between crafters.
We do have to remember however that the population is already going to be split into potentially more than 30 professions, so when we break down a profession even further - ala blacksmithing into weaponsmithing and armoursmithing - I think that is a step too far in fracturing the profession base.
A leatherworker should be able to make everything from leather: armour, bags, straps, saddles, quivers, etc. There should not be Armour Master Leathersmiths and Bag Master Leathersmiths. You know how to work leather, you can do the lot.
It is also quite disingenuous to do this as creating a warhammer is as different from creating a sword as creating a sword is from creating a helmet. The further split of professions into specialties is something that is not necessary, nor is it supported by historical evidence or, more importantly, by fantasy literature.
Yeah I know what you mean. However, I do think that you might be able to master more than one in some cases. I just do not see how for example "Taming" will require as many points to specialize in as say.. Weaponsmithing. Hence I think every branch of Artistry will require different amounts of points to deeply specialize in, so in some cases you can probably master more than one branch, if I am correct. This is just my own assumption based on me not seeing how every branch can be equally deep ^^
"ala blacksmithing into weaponsmithing and armoursmithing - I think that is a step too far in fracturing the profession base" Maybe, but you have to remember that even in weaponsmithing for example there can be different specializations, Sword Craft Master and Axe Craft Mastery for instance could be a thing, we don't know yet, so might be more branches of specialization within an Artistry Branch as well. But I agree, sub-branches should make sense. Like Bag Mastery for leatherworker wouldn't make sense. That would more be a "Here is for you to waste Artisan points" system.
The grouping you see is when the differences are big. For instance, a person who raises livestock for products is not as knowledgeable with breeding as a breeder. A person who crafts weapons and arms is not as knowledgeable in armorcrafting. Hence why the splits I've made are the ones that make sense.
I am more in favor of splitting every profession specialization.
I would like an Amorsmith to be able to craft any plate armor but to craft the BEST helmets you would have to specialize into "Plat helmet crafter". In that scenario it would be more community relevant, meaning you want to sell the BEST plate boots in order to maximise your profit and be able to buy the best plate helmet.
It would not discourage solo player, you would just have to rely on the market and the community to get your full gear. Even if you are able to craft all plate pieces, if you want all best-in slot pieces you would have to rely on other.
It would reward more balanced guild wich have one of each meaning 8 pieces of armor x 3 type of armor (cloth leather plate) + 5 pieces of joalry (including maybe 2 rings) so 4 and 11-15 types of weapon (1 handed and 2 handed considered as 2 types but maybe will be considered as 1, 11 weapons are the official ones i found on a wiki, not including crossbows, bows and maybe other range weapons so maybe 15 would be more relevant.)
It would bring a total of 43 gear crafting specialities. Maybe less maybe more and only considering gear, meaning that maybe potions and other crafting professions (maybe including gathering/refinng ?) might bring it to 64 I would love to see that many specialization. It would make everyone relevant and not just one cloth + one leather + one plate + one weapon + one joalry dudes...
I am more in favor of splitting every profession specialization.
I would like an Amorsmith to be able to craft any plate armor but to craft the BEST helmets you would have to specialize into "Plat helmet crafter". In that scenario it would be more community relevant, meaning you want to sell the BEST plate boots in order to maximise your profit and be able to buy the best plate helmet.
Yeah I like that idea too. As I've stated in a few discussions, I think the crafting system will be point based. Aka you have a certain number of max points to spend across the branch of different professions, different professions requiring different amount of total skillspoints to max out, meaning different professions have varying amounts od depth.
It would not discourage solo player, you would just have to rely on the market and the community to get your full gear. Even if you are able to craft all plate pieces, if you want all best-in slot pieces you would have to rely on other.
It would bring a total of 43 gear crafting specialities. Maybe less maybe more and only considering gear, meaning that maybe potions and other crafting professions (maybe including gathering/refinng ?) might bring it to 64 I would love to see that many specialization. It would make everyone relevant and not just one cloth + one leather + one plate + one weapon + one joalry dudes...
What do you think about that ?
I think it will be less. I can imagine that if it is split like that, you can prob master a few of them instead of just one. But it still lacks the one thing I want the most. Experimental crafting.
I am more in favor of splitting every profession specialization.
It would bring a total of 43 gear crafting specialities. Maybe less maybe more and only considering gear, meaning that maybe potions and other crafting professions (maybe including gathering/refinng ?) might bring it to 64 I would love to see that many specialization. It would make everyone relevant and not just one cloth + one leather + one plate + one weapon + one joalry dudes...
I dislike this idea fairly intensely. I just feel that having 60+ professions is just splitting things way too much. Considering we can really only master one profession I don't think there will be too many people who are interested in being the Gauntlet Master over the Sword Master or Breastplate Master.
How then would you split leatherworking? Fracture it the same way, making leatherworkers have to master making leggings or chest pieces? What about tailoring? What about alchemy? What about jewellers?
I plan on being a crafter (for once) but if I can only make helmets then I will just go back to gathering and not bother because that is a system I find overly prescriptive and not fun at all.
If however, the system is something akin to what Ziltch is theorising, my vehemence wavers. If you have 30 points to spend on professions and 20 of these are used choosing to become a Master Blacksmith, then you could use your remaining 10 points to choose to focus on swords, hammers, helmets and shields, then I think this is a more workable system.
Not everyone would choose the same expertises but you would also not be restricted to making a single item of high quality.
Crafting is supposed to be fun. It almost never is in other MMOs and I would dearly love for it to be fun in Ashes. If it isn't it will fall back to the masochists and the moneymakers and I think that would be a truly sad outcome.
I am still firmly in the camp of becoming a Master Blacksmith and being able to craft every metal item at the highest quality possible. You still have to go about collecting all the patterns and knowledge, which will not be an easy thing to do. I think we will have more than enough differentiation without splitting and splitting and splitting masteries.
Nice way to visualize the current state of knowledge/speculation regarding crafting @Ziltch, it's possible you are taking a more principled approach to the crafting system's design than Intrepid is!
Jokes aside, I think the role that crafting is targeted to play and the limitations Intrepid wants to impose in terms of artisan skills will be a really nice change of pace for the modern MMO genre. I don't *think* much is planned with regards to crafting functionality in Alpha Zero, but hopefully as we approach Alpha 1 we'll get to know more concrete info about these systems. I'll bookmark this thread until then.
I'd love to be able to specialize in a certain niche and be limited to how versatile my skills could be to others. Systems like ESO and most traditional MMOs where you're able to master everything gets pretty boring. I love how this game seems to require a lot of communication and collaboration between communities. I'd like to see a couple specialty guilds for RP reasons too.
If I specialized in Mining i'd like to be able to decide if I want to put limited points into extending towards Masonry, Smelting, and/or Refining (possibly for Jewels?).
I cant really form a good enough argument for how split things should be such as Weaponcrafting vs Armorcrafting. I do however like that we have to commit hard to a certain path to be able to fully master it. You cant be a master at 3 things, and that's a big thing that kills progressing skills in other MMOs for me
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I think that crafting is going to be THE biggest culture shock for most players when AoC launches. We can only truly master one aspect of all of these professions - I don't think that can be emphasised enough.
We have been told that while we can choose to put our artisan points in more than one field, we will not have enough points to truly master a single profession if we do so.
This is a huge fracturing of the professions among the community and is a gargantuan difference from most of the popular MMOs on the market at the moment. We even have games like ESO and FFXIV that allow you to be literally eveything if you spend enough time on them.
The crafting system is far more integral to the mechanics of the game, the structure of the community and the longevity of the product than all of the PvP systems put together.
I hope that the next blog post is devoted to exploring crafting in a more meaningful way as I believe that it really is the part of the game that can make or break Ashes.
That being said, I am excited for the system, to see people actually need each other and for the community to really exist on the back of this synergy between crafters.
We do have to remember however that the population is already going to be split into potentially more than 30 professions, so when we break down a profession even further - ala blacksmithing into weaponsmithing and armoursmithing - I think that is a step too far in fracturing the profession base.
A leatherworker should be able to make everything from leather: armour, bags, straps, saddles, quivers, etc. There should not be Armour Master Leathersmiths and Bag Master Leathersmiths. You know how to work leather, you can do the lot.
It is also quite disingenuous to do this as creating a warhammer is as different from creating a sword as creating a sword is from creating a helmet. The further split of professions into specialties is something that is not necessary, nor is it supported by historical evidence or, more importantly, by fantasy literature.
However, I do think that you might be able to master more than one in some cases.
I just do not see how for example "Taming" will require as many points to specialize in as say.. Weaponsmithing. Hence I think every branch of Artistry will require different amounts of points to deeply specialize in, so in some cases you can probably master more than one branch, if I am correct. This is just my own assumption based on me not seeing how every branch can be equally deep ^^
"ala blacksmithing into weaponsmithing and armoursmithing - I think that is a step too far in fracturing the profession base"
Maybe, but you have to remember that even in weaponsmithing for example there can be different specializations, Sword Craft Master and Axe Craft Mastery for instance could be a thing, we don't know yet, so might be more branches of specialization within an Artistry Branch as well.
But I agree, sub-branches should make sense. Like Bag Mastery for leatherworker wouldn't make sense. That would more be a "Here is for you to waste Artisan points" system.
The grouping you see is when the differences are big.
For instance, a person who raises livestock for products is not as knowledgeable with breeding as a breeder.
A person who crafts weapons and arms is not as knowledgeable in armorcrafting.
Hence why the splits I've made are the ones that make sense.
This is why I split it like Weapon/Armor btw
Source
I would like an Amorsmith to be able to craft any plate armor but to craft the BEST helmets you would have to specialize into "Plat helmet crafter". In that scenario it would be more community relevant, meaning you want to sell the BEST plate boots in order to maximise your profit and be able to buy the best plate helmet.
It would not discourage solo player, you would just have to rely on the market and the community to get your full gear. Even if you are able to craft all plate pieces, if you want all best-in slot pieces you would have to rely on other.
It would reward more balanced guild wich have one of each meaning 8 pieces of armor x 3 type of armor (cloth leather plate) + 5 pieces of joalry (including maybe 2 rings) so 4 and 11-15 types of weapon (1 handed and 2 handed considered as 2 types but maybe will be considered as 1, 11 weapons are the official ones i found on a wiki, not including crossbows, bows and maybe other range weapons so maybe 15 would be more relevant.)
It would bring a total of 43 gear crafting specialities. Maybe less maybe more and only considering gear, meaning that maybe potions and other crafting professions (maybe including gathering/refinng ?) might bring it to 64
What do you think about that ?
Edit : http://aocwiki.net/Items is the list i used
Jupp, that's why I would like it.
But it still lacks the one thing I want the most. Experimental crafting.
How then would you split leatherworking? Fracture it the same way, making leatherworkers have to master making leggings or chest pieces? What about tailoring? What about alchemy? What about jewellers?
I plan on being a crafter (for once) but if I can only make helmets then I will just go back to gathering and not bother because that is a system I find overly prescriptive and not fun at all.
If however, the system is something akin to what Ziltch is theorising, my vehemence wavers. If you have 30 points to spend on professions and 20 of these are used choosing to become a Master Blacksmith, then you could use your remaining 10 points to choose to focus on swords, hammers, helmets and shields, then I think this is a more workable system.
Not everyone would choose the same expertises but you would also not be restricted to making a single item of high quality.
Crafting is supposed to be fun. It almost never is in other MMOs and I would dearly love for it to be fun in Ashes. If it isn't it will fall back to the masochists and the moneymakers and I think that would be a truly sad outcome.
I am still firmly in the camp of becoming a Master Blacksmith and being able to craft every metal item at the highest quality possible. You still have to go about collecting all the patterns and knowledge, which will not be an easy thing to do. I think we will have more than enough differentiation without splitting and splitting and splitting masteries.
I would expect everyone that chooses mining expects to be able to mine every single ore in the game, not have to choose a small subset.
Jokes aside, I think the role that crafting is targeted to play and the limitations Intrepid wants to impose in terms of artisan skills will be a really nice change of pace for the modern MMO genre. I don't *think* much is planned with regards to crafting functionality in Alpha Zero, but hopefully as we approach Alpha 1 we'll get to know more concrete info about these systems. I'll bookmark this thread until then.
CRAFTERSS UNITE!
If I specialized in Mining i'd like to be able to decide if I want to put limited points into extending towards Masonry, Smelting, and/or Refining (possibly for Jewels?).
I cant really form a good enough argument for how split things should be such as Weaponcrafting vs Armorcrafting. I do however like that we have to commit hard to a certain path to be able to fully master it. You cant be a master at 3 things, and that's a big thing that kills progressing skills in other MMOs for me
If you are interested, you could check out my article regarding crafting here.