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Gearing System - Hard Work vs. Tedious Busywork
ArchivedUser
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I'm really sick of games that make gearing so boring, especially when people try to defend it saying "you have to work hard for it!" like it's not hard at all, it's just tedious and unfun most of the time. I'm of course referring specifically to RNG in getting gear and improving gear. It'd be nice if maybe there was a minigame sort of thing (like the timing bar for weapon skills at the very least) so you actually had some control over gear improvement or multiple ways of getting new gear so we didn't have to farm the same thing over and over again for a chance at getting something.
idk I'm not a game dev, I just want something that actually has some thought put into it.
idk I'm not a game dev, I just want something that actually has some thought put into it.
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Much of the gear in ashes will be crafted though crafting again is considered a grind by many people, farming resources to make your gear is considered a grind, grind is so subjective. Some gear will come from dungeons but as has been said gear can be broken down to learn how to craft it plus most gear in ashes will not be bound in any way so can be traded or sold. All we can hope is that the need to run the same content 100 times does not exist in ashes but time will tell.
So I hope this "over enchanting" does not boost your item more then like 1% or 2% of max power, otherwise it will still be necessary gambling, which would suck.
I prefer gear upgrading requires effort, but not tedious grind, like you say. Rather it requires you to complete some challenging content, dungeons, raids, it requires you to find rare materials (rather then requiring you to farm million of common material).
So it would not be easy to upgrade gear, but it would not be tedious grind also, it would just require your participation in challenging content, and your investigative effort in finding rare materials (which could also be obtained through economy).
For those who havent played the best gear ingame could be crafted, magic weapons and armor existed from mobs and dungoens but they were at most 10-15% better damage wise from high level crafting. Equipment could be easily replaced and equipment could and would be dropped upon death.
Rare items with different cosmetics were obtainable and players spent hours and months working to get them, only due to the rarity and status appointed for them. Honestly that should be the goal. Cosmetic high tier weps and armor that are not a power tier above.
If enchanting is in the game (which it appears to be from old talks) make it modify stats ingame, a soft modifier. IE enchanting a constitution effect onto armor adds a +1 of one stat but drops another. That way you can modify your armor to your choice and character build but not make it a flat power boost.
Balance ingame in pvp is of utmost importance in an openworld pvx game. The biggest key to this is equipment and class power levels. Make equipment easy to get, to lose and not only do you keep players from avoiding pvp (even PVE crafters would get into pvp in oldschool UO, some that didnt enjoy it but became fond of dueling) plus allowing new incoming players the ability to compete without being steamrolled. We dont want to push away new players with a five month timegate later down the line. this is where MMOs screw themselves over
In my opinion the idea that crafted gear would be competitive would suit many core themes and ideas that they are shooting for, promoting people to work together in their community or guild to get everyone geared.
I also would really enjoy rare or more unique items having lore tied to them and essentially be gated behind some kind of story, adventure, or puzzle that could be found out in the world while exploring.
When you crafted cursed gear it would be just a regular cursed item or it would be *insert item name here* -1. Once you lifted the curse on that item with the special paper, it would go from -1 to the un-cursed version of that item +1. This provided that crafting was very much in the mix with world drops/bosses. The bosses could also dropped completely finished items as well though. It was a nifty concept and your gear would last a long time instead of being replaced every 2 to 3 months.
If you don't really put progression through gear on, just a little. People won't really notice all that much, and might feel like they are not progressing.
Now, IS is doing something rather interesting, in that it's not solely focused on personal progression. As you do things, the country for which you fight. Either directly (As citizen) or indirectly (as a lone hermit in the forest, keeping the wolf populace in check) the land that you reside in will start to change. It becomes more of a powerhouse. And with that, come dangers, both from a PvE perspective, but from a PvP perspective as well. PvP will provide most of the longevity. And this will be especially true if your nodes level determines the type of resources, and PvE content you may have "easier" access to. You could set out to do a dungeon elsewhere, but that would serve to increase the strength of another country, in the long run.
This system is dynamic, especially when they get it right. It's such a genius solution to the problem, paradigm shifting, in a way. Which is why, before they go live, it must work flawlessly. Because it requires a shift in public perception, for years, and years now, WE as players have been central, we gain all the power through gear, we are the heroes, the champions, the generals.
I feel, a really hope, that this might change with this game, that it's the land we fight for that gets stronger, and that within said land, we can progress our characters, from a lowly villager, who worked hard to get his way to the top, to maybe, one day, lead said land. Or hold a position of more power, accumulate wealth, fame, all of that. It's in my eyes so much more satisfying.
That's actually bad. You couldn't pick one, you needed every set. They should have made swapping mid-fight less easy, or not possible. I sure don't want to carry 50 pieces of gear just for fighting for one class.
A friend of mine told me all about the FFXI endgame. That's when I decided it was poison and to avoid forever. 3 days respawn world bosses, that have single claim where you need to fight claim-bots, that people camp and wait hours and hours for them to spawn, to maybe go home empty-handed...It just sounds horrible.
For me world bosses are spontaneous, or follow a quest thing, people shouldn't be able to camp them. Let alone camping bosses like that being the entirety of endgame.
I don't think doing a dungeon in another region once will make a node hit metropolis compared to, you know, crafting or gathering for days on end, in your node ZOI.
Sure, but not noticeably compared to the degree of activity you'll do in your node because your home is there. Unless you run the dungeon non-stop and are never home, I guess. Then maybe move there.
I mean, I sure wouldn't be scared of leveling other nodes by accident because I did one thing there. That's like being scared you support the US being a superpower forever if you buy 1 thing from a US store. While you buy dozens in your home country.
You go, what is one item? So does everyone else in your hub, and suddenly it's a significant increase. And what if like gathering and crafting, it's done on a per kill basis? Every source of XP gained, a percentage of that goes to the node. One run, not too bad, but multiple groups with the same philosophy might start offering a significant chunk. I'm not at all saying you should never do it, but you should be aware it strengthens the opposing nodes. Maybe not by much, but every little bit helps.
The point of the post wasn't about that anyway, it was about there having been given alternative paths of progression, one not centred around oneself.
While I agree FFXI endgame was pretty toxic, its probably one of the most enjoyable memories from FF11. You needed to actually know the mechanics and where to stand for certain bosses, not "lets just throw 1,000 people at it and expect to win"
Honestly FF11 separated the men from the boys, as tedious as it sounds, it was honestly an element in the game that weeded out trash players. Gear swapping wasn't hard in the least bit, you just had to actually put some time into learning your job and gear sets, this whole "let everyone wear 1 set of gear and never having to change for situational fights" and spam a rotation is just easy mode for casual players.
Skill to take the boss down and luck for it to drop. I know RNG can be a pain, but it would really make obtaining the gear seem like an actual accomplishment to me and would really involve full time crafters into the endgame. I believe it would be a benefit to players no matter their play style.
Not just trash, but everyone who isn't sleeping at their comp. I get bored if I wait 10 minutes in a queue doing nothing (and the key is: doing nothing, I can't craft or whatever). I can't imagine 3 hours 2-3x per week doing nothing during the spawn wait. Maybe the ultimate test for patience, but I can also go to the hospital for that, and wait 5 hours before someone sees me.
Didn't say it was hard. I said it was annoying to have to get them all, and then to have them on your character. I guess also the 203909 macros for it.
Learning your job is fine. Knowing that there is a set for dark-dungeon or CC set or whatever fine. Having 6 different sets on you at all times, stupid. It actually makes you a better player to pick which set situationally (and leave the rest at home/storage) than switch on the spot. That switching-on-the-spot makes you never in danger, like having every single skill type on every class available at all times. That means you never have to pick. No meaningful choices, no choices even. What's easy mode is having it all and not having to pick.
See FF12 vs FF12 Zodiac Age. In original FF12, you could get every skill and magic, every armor, every weapon unlocked on every char. In Zodiac, you pick 2 class-types per character. Not everything at once, and its permanent.
That depends on how available those bosses are. If the bis gear requires a crafter, but is FF11 HNM style bosses to unlock (meaning single claim, wait for hours, need 18 people at once all wanting to do that)...no thanks. I guess it could be fine if there was another non-boss method to unlock it. Because "no matter their playstyle" passes right above everyone who doesn't like the HNM style thing of endgame, which is most people.
I don't think ALL content should be for everybody, I think there should be something for every type of player, but I strongly believe that there needs to be a super difficult version of everything that yields the same type of gear but with better stats to reflect the work they put behind clearing the difficult content.
FFXI was brought up as an example that could be used to put crafters into the endgame scene and still make a pretty penny out of it.
You don't think this would result in the lower tier geared people to be refused in content by elitists? Or maybe the people who simply don't have time, but have plenty of skill, or can't be bothered to join a 500-man guild to do 18-man content all the time, should not be barred from the best gear, because they like to pvp or pve in non-gimp gear.
Me, give me a way for a crafter who doesn't want to join a raid-every-week hardcore guild to get the exact same stats (make it longer, require more expensive mats, whatever), then I don't mind. But I don't want the cheaper, weaker version. That's actually what was the best crafted in FF14, the cheaper-weaker version compared to raid drops. And part of why I left, I didn't want to spend weeks of hard work leveling crafts, finding mats, trying rotations, to just make 2nd-best gear no one wants anyway.And they said AoC would make bis crafts, I hope its not bis-craft-but-requires-18-man-boss as the only method.
So yes, have a hard and normal version of raids/bosses and have the gear reflect the difficulty. This would give somethign to the people who don't have a lot of time to play the game yet give the people who focus on clearing all the hardest content the better gear.
Yes, you should.
You'll get lots of raiders complaining they are forced to get craft gear, cause they didn't want to farm money or level a craft themselves, also.
What's it to you? I don't get wanting to piss on other people's playstyle because it's not the same as yours.
I agree. Just not what you think it implies, doing it all.
So the person who just crafts is still "just crafting" for many hours, and can only easily get the gear in the specialty they chose. They have to buy from other specialists for the rest (it be a bit of a pain to level 26 alts just for that). The crafter has to research what they want to do, find mats, find processors, find buyers for their finished products, or at least a good spot to sell stuff. And also dismantle gear to get new recipes.
It might not be stressful effort of "I could die any moment", but it's effort that tons of people decide to not do because its too long or too difficult.
2. Raiders won't complain about having to get with crafters to get certain gear. Raiders are a different breed. They do what they can so they can take out the hardest content, so crafting won't be a big deal to them for the most part.
3. Why is it such a huge deal to make everybody do a little bit of everything to get all BiS? Because you don't want to force a play style? Well, this game implements PvP into the game, no way around doing PvP of some sort unless all you do is stay in a town. This is forcing a game mechanic onto players, why would it sound so outlandish for gear to come from something people aren't necessarily 100% comfortable with?
4. I have played MMOs for many years, and I have been a huge crafter on top of a hardcore raider, a casual player, etc over my years. I have put countless hours into crafting in games like FFXI, FFXIV, etc. I know what worthwhile crafting is like, but, I think each class needs to get a piece or two that are BiS from a specific type of crafter, have to either get the components or some of the pieces from raids/dungeons and get something from doing PvP.
This is all stuff they want to implement int he game and my biggest thing about crafting is if you give crafters the ability to make all BiS then we will have hoards of RMT and loads of gold buyers who don't want to do content. Thus pretty much making it so people can just say "Screw the intended content for gearing up, I'll just buy it all with gold I purchased."
I understand where you're coming form to an extent, it just doesn't work out that way.
They said they would deal with RMT.
Flash news, not everyone, even hardcore people, raid. Even if the gear was only available from raid, what would happen is me not playing and looking for a game where craft is worthy, not me doing raid reluctantly.
They did on FF14 forums. For the hypothetical where crafters could make untradable bis gear, imagine. Some of them said they would feel forced to level crafts to have that small edge.
The raiders I knew were of the login do dungeon, logout. And on raid day, login do raid, logout. Not the kind to craft. Some probably did it anyway, sure, but they were a minority.
It's BiS gear, so I expect "a little bit of everything" to be "a ton of everything, at a competitive endgame level". It's not like when Kingdom Hearts wants me to do their mini-games I don't really like to get trophies. It would be like if they wanted me to be top of a ranked leader board to get gear.
There is a difference between doing pvp because a caravan passes by, or participating on a siege to defend your node/castle/guild base once per month, and tournament-lv competitive pvp all the time just to get gear.
Because they said crafting could make bis, not 10% of bis, all bis.
While you think this is balanced, this will be rejected. The all-about-pvp guy* doesn't want to be forced to raid or make money to buy bis, and he sure doesn't want to be in crap gear because of refusing to do that. The all-about-raid guy* often doesn't have time to craft and might not be interested at all in pvp. And lots of all-about-craft guys* don't want to pvp or raid regularly, either (doesn't mean never, but getting bis gear is never a short time deal).
No, we won't. I trust Intrepid.
*Guy(s) here is gender-neutral.
I didn't want to imply you could do it all solo. I fully expect a good master-tier crafter to be good enough at making money to slowly be able to buy the other pieces from other master-tier crafters who can make them. How slowly will depend on tons of factors.
So put another way, I rather see a good challenge to acquire rare mats than spend countless hours grinding. My countless hours should be spent polishing my skills to a level that I can take on the challenge.
Oh yeah, don't forget the discovery part. I hope lots of stuff will be locked away, hidden in deep mountains, dense forests, endless deserts under frozen lakes, in the corner of a valley populated by razing ogres and so on.