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Why you are wrong about the combat system (From a higly skilled player)
In this post I will explain why the combat system (Yes, including the timing bar) is potentially a very good thing for AoC. I also include the movement, combo aspects of the combat system.
Before I share my oppinions I would like to prove that I am competent regarding this matter so people don't use the argument that I am bad at MMOs. Also, sorry for the kinda clickbait title, I do not regard my self as a highly skilled player I am just top 0.5% of most major games.
http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Ranksor
Top 0.5% of LoL players in Europe (Basically Europe+America) Have been top 0.2% aswell but just playing casually and as Lee sin.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/silvermoon/marzzo
Top 50 Warriors in the world during Last season (Caster dominated meta tought)
Other than this I have also been compentent in Overwatch, Starcraft (Only in EU, no chance in asian servers), Guild Wars, Runescape, Rift and Star wars (Basically all relevant PVP/PVE focused games in history.
With that out of the way let's talk about the combat system even though we are in alpha state which means we need to take everything with a pinch of salt.
Normally we have two kind of combat systems in MMOs, Tab targeting style (wow) or some kind of action type style (terra). Both have their ups and down and some of them include
Tab Targeting:
+Less affected by Ms/lag
+More persistent control
+Easier to balance the game
+Easier to create fair and challanging Pve content
-Less immersive
-Clunky
-Limits potential of gameplay
Action Style
+More action filled (duh)
+More gameplay for "skilled play"
+Less chess like gameplay
-Extremly affected by ms/lag
-Non targeting focused classes will be a lot easier to play than others
So why do I think all of the fairly hated systems are good for an MMO? Because they make combat acutally matter. What do I mean by this? Well, in most games (Wow, Lol, and most other MMOs) there is a mathematicly optimal way to play. By this I mean that there is no individuality in most MMOS and Online games. An example of this would be this:
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-warrior-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities
If you wonder what that is, that is a one page explanation on the most optimal way to deal damage/play a class in World of warcaft. Any slight variation in that step by step guide and you will be worse than 50% of the Wow playerbase. The thing is, all your favorite classes, heroes, champions and weapons from your favorite games are all just numbers and math, they are not real, just simple and very badly calculated numbers and math equations and there is always a right and wrong in math. One additional problem is that most of the times it takes just 1-2 hours of real practice to learn the optimal order to click on.
This all comes down to that all players will play on the same level and the only difference that will matter in a game is Knowledge, Tactics, teamwork and choices (By choices I mean in the character selection screen when you choose the best classes). Funny thing is that 90% of the world don't even bother to play optimally and will do whatever they please (Which is also why most people are shitty in PVE (Cant do highest difficulty content) and PVP (Cant actually play the game). But, for the rest of the 10% that actually want to be good and compete in a game it is very important to have a high skillcap. This can't be achived with only Tab targeting or only action gameplay. The reason for this is because humans are to smart (most of us) to only memorise 10 abilities and use them in the correct order. That is literally children level. This is the reason all of the systems AoC uses are needed, they add extra shit to think about (Timing, positioning and combos). This will make class mastery more satisfying, bosses more challenging and PVP fair(er).
By using only tab targeting the game will have wow style problems, these include a rock paper schisor luck based PVP, and 100% boss mechanic knowledge PVE. Your abilities will just become a premanent rotation that you will simply stop caring about and it will only be a tool and everyone will use the exact same playstyle as you. I as a top 50 warrior world with 8 years of exp play my class just as good as my friend who only played warrior for 2 months. The only thing that differs us is that I know all the classes and cross class combos like the my genitals and he does not. This is not true skill.
Full action gameplay will also have a rotation but this time lag and MS will play a larger role and class balance will be practially impossible. Also, Large scale battles like this turn into the craziest spam 21323412 fest in history (See blitzkrieg for reference)
By using the systems that AoC want to implement, we will not get rid of the problem, but we will add extra layers of depth into the combat system that will raise the skillcap and hopefully create.
The timing bar will stop you from spamming a rotation and reward people who can be ice cold during stress (true skill stuff). Movement based abilities will reward people with mechanics, sense of where to be and tactical knowledge (true skill).
To conclude. Tab target and full action systems are to linear, they are too basic. In fact they are so basic that literally everyone will be at the same level and play in the same way that gameplay will be an illusion, it will all just be a God of War quick time event.
To combine the two, and put extra stuff to think about during combat, is more realistic, engaging, immersive and most importanly, fairer. Also, it will reward people who actually want to be good, or play their character in a unique way.
(Sorry for misspelings, english is not my language and wrote this in 10 mins).
Before I share my oppinions I would like to prove that I am competent regarding this matter so people don't use the argument that I am bad at MMOs. Also, sorry for the kinda clickbait title, I do not regard my self as a highly skilled player I am just top 0.5% of most major games.
http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Ranksor
Top 0.5% of LoL players in Europe (Basically Europe+America) Have been top 0.2% aswell but just playing casually and as Lee sin.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/silvermoon/marzzo
Top 50 Warriors in the world during Last season (Caster dominated meta tought)
Other than this I have also been compentent in Overwatch, Starcraft (Only in EU, no chance in asian servers), Guild Wars, Runescape, Rift and Star wars (Basically all relevant PVP/PVE focused games in history.
With that out of the way let's talk about the combat system even though we are in alpha state which means we need to take everything with a pinch of salt.
Normally we have two kind of combat systems in MMOs, Tab targeting style (wow) or some kind of action type style (terra). Both have their ups and down and some of them include
Tab Targeting:
+Less affected by Ms/lag
+More persistent control
+Easier to balance the game
+Easier to create fair and challanging Pve content
-Less immersive
-Clunky
-Limits potential of gameplay
Action Style
+More action filled (duh)
+More gameplay for "skilled play"
+Less chess like gameplay
-Extremly affected by ms/lag
-Non targeting focused classes will be a lot easier to play than others
So why do I think all of the fairly hated systems are good for an MMO? Because they make combat acutally matter. What do I mean by this? Well, in most games (Wow, Lol, and most other MMOs) there is a mathematicly optimal way to play. By this I mean that there is no individuality in most MMOS and Online games. An example of this would be this:
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-warrior-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities
If you wonder what that is, that is a one page explanation on the most optimal way to deal damage/play a class in World of warcaft. Any slight variation in that step by step guide and you will be worse than 50% of the Wow playerbase. The thing is, all your favorite classes, heroes, champions and weapons from your favorite games are all just numbers and math, they are not real, just simple and very badly calculated numbers and math equations and there is always a right and wrong in math. One additional problem is that most of the times it takes just 1-2 hours of real practice to learn the optimal order to click on.
This all comes down to that all players will play on the same level and the only difference that will matter in a game is Knowledge, Tactics, teamwork and choices (By choices I mean in the character selection screen when you choose the best classes). Funny thing is that 90% of the world don't even bother to play optimally and will do whatever they please (Which is also why most people are shitty in PVE (Cant do highest difficulty content) and PVP (Cant actually play the game). But, for the rest of the 10% that actually want to be good and compete in a game it is very important to have a high skillcap. This can't be achived with only Tab targeting or only action gameplay. The reason for this is because humans are to smart (most of us) to only memorise 10 abilities and use them in the correct order. That is literally children level. This is the reason all of the systems AoC uses are needed, they add extra shit to think about (Timing, positioning and combos). This will make class mastery more satisfying, bosses more challenging and PVP fair(er).
By using only tab targeting the game will have wow style problems, these include a rock paper schisor luck based PVP, and 100% boss mechanic knowledge PVE. Your abilities will just become a premanent rotation that you will simply stop caring about and it will only be a tool and everyone will use the exact same playstyle as you. I as a top 50 warrior world with 8 years of exp play my class just as good as my friend who only played warrior for 2 months. The only thing that differs us is that I know all the classes and cross class combos like the my genitals and he does not. This is not true skill.
Full action gameplay will also have a rotation but this time lag and MS will play a larger role and class balance will be practially impossible. Also, Large scale battles like this turn into the craziest spam 21323412 fest in history (See blitzkrieg for reference)
By using the systems that AoC want to implement, we will not get rid of the problem, but we will add extra layers of depth into the combat system that will raise the skillcap and hopefully create.
The timing bar will stop you from spamming a rotation and reward people who can be ice cold during stress (true skill stuff). Movement based abilities will reward people with mechanics, sense of where to be and tactical knowledge (true skill).
To conclude. Tab target and full action systems are to linear, they are too basic. In fact they are so basic that literally everyone will be at the same level and play in the same way that gameplay will be an illusion, it will all just be a God of War quick time event.
To combine the two, and put extra stuff to think about during combat, is more realistic, engaging, immersive and most importanly, fairer. Also, it will reward people who actually want to be good, or play their character in a unique way.
(Sorry for misspelings, english is not my language and wrote this in 10 mins).
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Comments
As far as tab targeting goes. It's a bit archaic, but it doesn't lack skill, like you claim. The current iteration of WoW where most of the RPG stats have been removed (Resistance, mp5, spirit, resource management) made it simplistic. But on the pvp side of that equation. There are a lot of quick decisions to be made, constantly, you have to recognise threats, and try and deal with them accordingly. It's not nearly as rock paper scissors as your post suggest. With that said. It's rather pretentious, to claim yourself 0.5 percent of all the relevant games. Relevance, first of all is subjective. And the way it reads is that the games where you aren't in the top tier, well those are not relevant.
Anyway, the whole intro is irrelevant. And it's basically argumentum ad verecundiam. Which is sad, as it undermines your underlying points.
You also went on and said tab targeting is less immersive, which isn't an argument, as it's once again subjective.
Then there's a plus for less like chess gameplay. Chess, is a very high skillcap game. For humans, there are an incredible amount of variations, and openings. And whilst the fundamentals are somewhat easy. Only few master the craft. So it could be argued that it should be a minus point.
More gameplay for skilled play I'm not at all satisfied with the limited definition of skill you put forth. As it comes in many forms. Response time to something that technically only seems to happen in your ui. It's just response time skill. And arguably less immersive than tab targeting for that very reason.
Last plus point was more action oriented. Which is true. But not because of any qte type event.
So, Intrepid's choice to go with both seems like a wonderful idea / compromise. Action oriented and tab target, together. I remain that having QTE be important and in some way integral to building ones ultimate ability is not a good decision.
You understand? At high skill, there is a preterminated action for all enemy plays. There is no decision making if you are good, only math.
And which game is most relevant? A game with
10 000 players or 67 000 000? I am top of
67 000 000 players. By logic, my games are more relevant, by definition as well.
And to finalize, all those "threats you have to analyze", every single one of them has 1 button that is optimal
It's like saying "I'm the best poker player. Poker is dumb."
As for your game relevance. The premise is faulty. There are a great many aspects that make a game "relevant" as you put it. Combat, is just one part. And highlighting it as being the only part is wrong.
And again, it's not rock paper scissors. I will go ahead and assume, if not infer that you are talking about arena combat.
Which, for the most part is just knowing which cooldowns to press when, and hugging LoS pillars. You'll still have to decide when to use them. As there are multiple people you'll have to content with. Potential Cyclones, Polymorphs, fear, Death Coil (which I belief is classified as a horror effect rather than a fear effect) roots, stuns, slows. You have to keep track of both your own cooldowns, your teammates, and your enemy cooldowns. You'll need to know when to burst down, or when to buy time by hugging the pillars. It's not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be. Which is why there's ladders. It's not just reacting to spells incoming, it's a LOT more complex than that. And, if you play PvP like that on a higher level, you'll know. Team compositions and all that matter. And for all these things, the enemy tries to do the same things, and you'll have to figure out how they are going to do it. And how you respond to that. Much like chess (Which is a skill game) you need to constantly try and outsmart your opponents. As they have the same things as you. It's a level playing field in a way. (Something which I don't personally enjoy, it homogenises the classes) But as basically everyone has the same sort of tools, given a mirror match-up (for the sake of argument) It becomes about outsmarting your opponents, baiting a counterspell by cast cancelling, for example.
Also,I'm pro player too I was Top 1 in LoL, best tauntflamer EUW. (i was 12 yo dont judge me
I only used Lol and overwatch as competence examples. But they truly are both, Massive, multiplayer and online.
And your argument is also invalid, there is nothing wrong with saying "I am the best at xxxx. xxxx is stupid". And I don't think any system is dumb, i simply explained why hybrid combat is better for a game.
To conclude, the games take skill, since I will beat you 99.5% at all of them with my "skill" but it is not true skill (in wow and the mmos) since I just click on the right buttons at the right time and you 99.5% dont click on the right buttons.
And please stop lecturing me about PvP since you clearly cant prove to be over 2000rating in either wow or show knowledge of the status of wow. At high levels, a 3v3 team is a single unit, you work as one under the lead of the team leader. The enemy will do the same and based on which classes you play you adapt differently, BUT always in the same way everygame if playing against same classes, after 20 000 arenas, you basically fought every single top combo many, many times. I know exactly, and I mean literally what my enemy RMP will do if I charge, or if I stun, since if they dont they lose. This is the same for LoL. I know exactly what a Lee sin will do vs me if I play Ashe, if he does not do the right combo, he loses. There is no damn variety, just rotations.
With a hybrid and attention seeking combat system with abilities that vary in strenght depending on timing and combos and movement you remove this shitty sense of rotations since different situations will make stuff impossible
(good luck interupting a spell or follow a rotation while timing in an ablitlity while dodging a skillshot and positioning yourself for a burst)
A hybrid system is better than an exclusive system
Also I'd like to add to the argument about the PvP in WoW, more specifically the rock paper scissors, you both aren't wrong. It really is rock paper scissors. But there are many factors here to consider. But yeah higher rankings really do appear to feel like that. But I've seen some people stray away from the normal or "expected" gameplay of a comp and actually win because they hadn't considered the strategy and or weren't prepared and got a curve ball expecting a fast ball. And happy late Thanksgiving to you all. Papa bless.
If you read 1 book out of a series do you claim to have read the whole series or indicate just the book you read? -not really the point here.. I might be wrong, I have never seen anyone use calculus, let alone trig., geo., diff. eq., or even algebra to determine DPS and rotations.
I think the OP's boast (even if backed up by stats) was a good position to take while trying to establish credibility. But, I never played those games so that level of credibility does nothing for me personally. Also, the claim that because someone is better means their opinion should be considered more "professional" is frivolous, and arrogant at best. I was once a master of Tiger Woods Golf, that doesn't make my opinion about a QTE more or less valid than someone else's. Opinion is the key word here.
Now, if the OP had some sort of Bachelor Degree, Master's Degree, or PhD. in MMO Combat his opinion would be worth more than mine (as is someone might pay for it). That said, in the game world and literally only in the game world (including live gaming events and competitions), I totally respect OP's skill-set. Nice job!
I like the thought of the QTE for a lot of the same reasons OP does. If, however, players around the world are getting KO'd because of ping that is an issue. I just don't know how much of an issue that is for Ashes versus the player.
Some of the players with bad ping might quit, will all of them? Idk.
Will that amount of loss be relevant enough to IS? Idk.
I am hoping enough players with potentially slow ping have the chance to participate in one (or more) of the Alpha/Beta tests to determine how much of an issue it really is.
You say there's only one optimal way to build your character, and while that is certainly true when it comes to PvE (math->what gives highest DPS=success, no way around it), in PvP there are other factors to consider (CC, burst dmg, utility skills/passives, mitigation etc etc).
...and with Ashes' class & skill systems, I don't think that build diversity will be a problem.
Like for example, here's how combat could go down: when fighting a rogue you not only have to consider what subclass that rogue is, you also have to consider if they've spent talents on CC X or CC Z. If you spend your CC break on the wrong one (misjudge your opponent), you're in trouble.
And in reverse: that rogue might be fighting a ranger. That rogue now has to consider what subclass the ranger is and how he might've built his character, which CC breaks that ranger has etc.
Even gear could become a factor if there's interesting set bonuses.
In the end, it all comes down to build diversity. I haven't played WoW in a looong time (vanilla/TBC), but it does sound like there isn't much build diversity within the classes themselves.
In any case, I hope the combo system will be a good addition to the game and will increase the skill ceiling in the game. There'll be lots of alphas/betas to improve it if necessary
ad hominem- Check
argumentum ad verecundiam - Check
My arena rating in WoW, or yours for that matter. Has exactly zero impact upon the discussion. You can flail your e-peen around all your like. That doesn't make your arguments any stronger. Au contraire, in fact.
So let's go. (again) Even though I am beginning to suspect that you're either a troll, or a moron.
"It's very hard to feel alive inside a game if everything has a large, non-physical ring that makes your abilities land"
First of all, there are CD's that counteract the fact that spell and abilities hit. There used to be a lot more, like you'd need hit rating, there were resistances, there was dodge, parry, defense, this was not that long ago. And it was when WoW (according to your definitions) was most relevant. You know, the most subscribers active. And, ironically, WoW nowadays is a lot more action oriented. (As in fast paced, not necesarrily a non-tab target system.) The resistances/dodge etc. They were all based on essentially a die roll. But it served the purpose of spells and such missing. You should also keep in mind, that the travel time of arrows, is a LOT faster than the animation would suggest. And damn near impossible to dodge. Especially in what can be seen as fairly close quarter combat in the form of Arenas. So that's Hunter range gone. As far as magic is concerned, it's not really that of an immersion breaking leap to go. "That great big ball of magical fire, it seems to be missing, luckily it's my own magic, and I can redirect it." Which, I'll grant, is not an ideal solution, but it creates a level playing ground.
Now, your system, as you outlined yourself, does -not- in fact have solutions for the ping problem. If you have a lower ping, you can
A ) hit more often
B ) respond easier to the abysmal QTE event for your spells.
This is the reason why MMO's tend to opt for tab targeting.
If I beat you, or you me, in whatever scenario, simply because you're latency is better. That's not you or I playing better, it's not a testament of "true skill" it's a matter of geographical location, and connection speed.
Now if the same scenario was done via the old system, which takes this into account. And we both have the same mechanical knowledge. It won't come down to rock paper scissors, it'll come down to mind games, essentially, like chess. You do things, because you know it'll bait something out of me. And I'm trying to do the same thing to you. And, much like chess. Once you or I make a mistake, the good players will jump on that opportunity. Say, I get baited to use an interrupt. And you cast cancelled. In order to stop whatever spell you were going to cast now, I have to use a CC I'd prefer to have used for something else. Or let you cast. And you'd have essentially outplayed me on pure skill.
Add to that that there are 64 class combinations possible within Ashes, and skilltrees in which you cannot get every skill.
Either IS does a poor job, and cookie cutter specs and class combinations will emerge (after which, one can at least hope they buff/nerf things to switch things up) Or the teams will start to think about the team, not necessarily the individual skill. I might build my character soley on CC's and slows and what have you.
The last part, we do not know yet, and we'll have to wait and see.
Anyway, over the last post I have you plenty of reasons why QTE's are a bad idea. And you've not given anything in favour since your original post. All you do is fling your e-peen around, as though that settles the argument.
It doesn't.
While I do agree that chess requires a lot of skill. It has been proven that the perfect game of chess where both players are equal, white will always, always win. Which is the same case for many pvp games. When two players are equal, the best class/rotation will always win. This can be avoided with skillshot and timing based abilities since it is not human to do everything perfect.
It is not uncomon for kasparov (chess master) to play perfectly and still lose the game vs White.
I just mean that by putting in more depth to a combat systme, more things to think about and do will make it impossible to play perfectly and just follow a simple rotation.
But I do see what you mean and you are right. Just feels like my point has been blurred
It's mmo gameplay system is that which most game strive to follow. It is also the most popular pvp oriented MMO which is why it is used.
In that regard I can wholeheartedly agree. The learning curve of your class was very shallow and the only deciding factor was experience with all combination which is as you put it just bad math.
True skill or mastery of it comes from adaptability (in my opinion). That is where I stop agreeing, at least in the underlying reason.
In my opinion, this has nothing to do with tab targeting and or action combat style targeting. It's the whole frame of how a fighting encounter was envisioned in those games. It's consistent in most MMORPGs I have played. The whole encounter is a huge burst of skills and decided in a "short" exchange.
(I am generalizing here to a degree that it's not always right but in general it was) Especially in WoW you could recover if you played right, if you hit those snap decisions just right of doing that silence, that root at the right time, managing to get out of combat and regenerate so you could get a 2nd try if it went bad for you, but that's all it was. A 2nd try at the same thing. Another clash of a short encounter.
To change this up and make it more slow paced from the get go opens up a wide variety of possibilities how you handle an encounter. Couple that with what they want to focus on, positioning and everything already mentioned. I do believe that they are going into a very good direction to offer us something really good and refreshing. You will (as I hope at least) learn to see a combat situation not just as a flurry of the same skill rotation you have seen 2000times before, but as individual expressions of a person. You won't know which skills this bard has taken and which augments he took. You won't know anything until it happens. You will have to watch, learn and adapt.
At least that is my hope and what I got from watching this project advance over the last 10months.
Edit: forgot to say, I still don't think QTE is a good addition, but it doesn't seem disrupting or too taxing so I am giving it the benefit of the doubt that it enriches the combat in the bigger picture of combat.
In those games it's more along the lines of playing a football game, faking to pass on the left, sending your opponent on his ass, passing on the right and making a shot on the goal. Snap decisions in a short lived encounter.
What AoC MIGHT be doing is more along the lines of chess, where your decision from a minute ago to place your "rider" at an unassuming position might turn out to be an overwhelming advantage later on in your encounter.
It has no strategic value, its purely reaction based, and its a succeed or fail thing. And lets be honest, failure isnt an option. So your only option realistically is to succeed, and one option isnt strategic.
In a 1v1 situation the person who gets the most reactions "successfully" hit in a row, gets the most focus, access to the "ultimate" ability faster, and usually thats the "I win" button factor in alot of games. So even if you use all the supposed skills you have at your disposal, the person getting their ultimate faster than you could ultimately be the victor.
Keeping the concept of the combat as it is. Focusing on a pure hybrid system (like AIR is doing perhaps with tab + action combat elements) and no repetitive minigames would be better imo.
The focus should be on positioning, skill usuage, stragetic use of said skills (wall placement etc) , cool down management, resource/mana management, and the control of your character via those skills.
The minigames during combat imo is a very "console" game approach and its currently implementation/iteration is tedious and obviously quite repetitive.
Even if was as diverse as FF14 1.0 crafting minigames (which were nicely designed and more complex) you would most likely run into the same issue as alot of FF14 players complained about. Repetiton, tedious design.
I personally dont think replacing "skill rotations" with a "repetitive minigame" is the answer, because thats essentially whats happening.
Instead expand on the skill system, skill augments, and stragetic gameplay elements which give you several options to choose from during a fight. The skill would then come from the choices you make, not how good your reactions physically, but how good your mental reactions are, which imo, is a higher form of skill.
I mean just talking about it the latter option looks like a gigantic flaw in their philosophy and doesn't match it at all. So I remain at the positively hopeful side for now, but I want to put forward that I am concerned.
A simple change like that, adds the concept of "choice". Do you use your focus to dodge from attacks? or save it so you can do more damage? You choose wether to spend your focus on offensive or defensive additional options. Thats strategic. Thats skill based. That involves forward thinking and mental planning in the heat of the moment.
A reaction based repetitive QTE game with only one realistic option does not. At the very least the QTE would need to be modified into something that gives you choice. Different options. A static success/fail minigame ultimately isnt much different a simple skill rotation. Both eventually become mindless muscle memory elements.
NO ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE! NONE AT ALL!
BECAUSE MY OPINION IS LAW!
There I added my opinion now am I special like you all?