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Why you are wrong about the combat system (From a higly skilled player)

2

Comments


  • TERA IS GREATEST COMBAT SYSTEM EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    NO ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE! NONE AT ALL!

    BECAUSE MY OPINION IS LAW!

    There I added my opinion now am I special like you all?
    Your opinion had some credit/valid input until I saw that you think Shadow of War was a good game.


  • Your opinion had some credit/valid input until I saw that you think Shadow of War was a good game.
    Well if I said skyrim was my favorite then nobody would disagree with me XD so I can't go doing that now can I?
  • If my memory serves me right, there are other uses for focus, the ultimate is just one of them, must have been in a stream a month ago somewhere.
  • Grisu said:
    If my memory serves me right, there are other uses for focus, the ultimate is just one of them, must have been in a stream a month ago somewhere.
    Ive made the suggestion previously in another thread (100+ page one) so that might be it :P Ive suggested it several times. The current system only uses focus for one class skill.
  • It would be cool if we could channel our focus to gain other bonuses, such as a faster health regen. End your battle and use up all your left over focus.

    Do we know if focus will deteriorate outside of battle?  
  • Grisu said:
    Basically why I give it the benefit of the doubt. I think we are to conditioned and used to to see an ultimate as the "1win button" as you put it. It's kind of in the name sadly. I don't think it will be that huge a factor and if I am right I do blame IS a little for how they presented it. The thing is, the concept of the ultimate tied to the QTE focus could go both ways and it remains to be seen if it's just another option in your arsenal achieved through that extra layer, or your deciding factor.
    I mean just talking about it the latter option looks like a gigantic flaw in their philosophy and doesn't match it at all. So I remain at the positively hopeful side for now, but I want to put forward that I am concerned.
    See imagine if all the skills usage (remove the basic attack QTE) gave some focus, and those focus instead of being used for an "ultimate" was part of a strategic resource pool. You could then use that "focus" resource to dodge (like GW2 style dodging w/ iframe) or conserve it to do more damage.

    A simple change like that, adds the concept of "choice". Do you use your focus to dodge from attacks? or save it so you can do more damage? You choose wether to spend your focus on offensive or defensive additional options. Thats strategic. Thats skill based. That involves forward thinking and mental planning in the heat of the moment. 

    A reaction based repetitive QTE game with only one realistic option does not. At the very least the QTE would need to be modified into something that gives you choice. Different options. A static success/fail minigame ultimately isnt much different a simple skill rotation. Both eventually become mindless muscle memory elements.
    I definitely like the sound of adding a strategic element to the focus meter, although I was thinking more along the lines of using the focus meter abilities (ultimate ability if you will) locks you into that action until it completely. For example, let's say you are playing a Mage and your ultimate is to charge up a giant ball of fire that does twice the amount of damage as your normal attacks, but in exchange you can't move or stop the cast once it starts. This would mean you would have to think carefully about using it, and it gives your opponent counterplay options, something that the current system doesn't.  
  • Grisu said:
    Basically why I give it the benefit of the doubt. I think we are to conditioned and used to to see an ultimate as the "1win button" as you put it. It's kind of in the name sadly. I don't think it will be that huge a factor and if I am right I do blame IS a little for how they presented it. The thing is, the concept of the ultimate tied to the QTE focus could go both ways and it remains to be seen if it's just another option in your arsenal achieved through that extra layer, or your deciding factor.
    I mean just talking about it the latter option looks like a gigantic flaw in their philosophy and doesn't match it at all. So I remain at the positively hopeful side for now, but I want to put forward that I am concerned.
    See imagine if all the skills usage (remove the basic attack QTE) gave some focus, and those focus instead of being used for an "ultimate" was part of a strategic resource pool. You could then use that "focus" resource to dodge (like GW2 style dodging w/ iframe) or conserve it to do more damage.

    A simple change like that, adds the concept of "choice". Do you use your focus to dodge from attacks? or save it so you can do more damage? You choose wether to spend your focus on offensive or defensive additional options. Thats strategic. Thats skill based. That involves forward thinking and mental planning in the heat of the moment. 

    A reaction based repetitive QTE game with only one realistic option does not. At the very least the QTE would need to be modified into something that gives you choice. Different options. A static success/fail minigame ultimately isnt much different a simple skill rotation. Both eventually become mindless muscle memory elements.
    I definitely like the sound of adding a strategic element to the focus meter, although I was thinking more along the lines of using the focus meter abilities (ultimate ability if you will) locks you into that action until it completely. For example, let's say you are playing a Mage and your ultimate is to charge up a giant ball of fire that does twice the amount of damage as your normal attacks, but in exchange you can't move or stop the cast once it starts. This would mean you would have to think carefully about using it, and it gives your opponent counterplay options, something that the current system doesn't.  
    Yeah for sure. Anything like that. A system that gives you a multitude of situational options is better than a static QTE game. 

    What i suggested is just a basic example, theres alot of ways it could be done/altered, and thats the direction I think they should focus on. Skill usage.
  • Grisu said:
    Basically why I give it the benefit of the doubt. I think we are to conditioned and used to to see an ultimate as the "1win button" as you put it. It's kind of in the name sadly. I don't think it will be that huge a factor and if I am right I do blame IS a little for how they presented it. The thing is, the concept of the ultimate tied to the QTE focus could go both ways and it remains to be seen if it's just another option in your arsenal achieved through that extra layer, or your deciding factor.
    I mean just talking about it the latter option looks like a gigantic flaw in their philosophy and doesn't match it at all. So I remain at the positively hopeful side for now, but I want to put forward that I am concerned.
    See imagine if all the skills usage (remove the basic attack QTE) gave some focus, and those focus instead of being used for an "ultimate" was part of a strategic resource pool. You could then use that "focus" resource to dodge (like GW2 style dodging w/ iframe) or conserve it to do more damage.

    A simple change like that, adds the concept of "choice". Do you use your focus to dodge from attacks? or save it so you can do more damage? You choose wether to spend your focus on offensive or defensive additional options. Thats strategic. Thats skill based. That involves forward thinking and mental planning in the heat of the moment. 

    A reaction based repetitive QTE game with only one realistic option does not. At the very least the QTE would need to be modified into something that gives you choice. Different options. A static success/fail minigame ultimately isnt much different a simple skill rotation. Both eventually become mindless muscle memory elements.
    I definitely like the sound of adding a strategic element to the focus meter, although I was thinking more along the lines of using the focus meter abilities (ultimate ability if you will) locks you into that action until it completely. For example, let's say you are playing a Mage and your ultimate is to charge up a giant ball of fire that does twice the amount of damage as your normal attacks, but in exchange you can't move or stop the cast once it starts. This would mean you would have to think carefully about using it, and it gives your opponent counterplay options, something that the current system doesn't.  
    Yeah for sure. Anything like that. A system that gives you a multitude of situational options is better than a static QTE game. 

    What i suggested is just a basic example, theres alot of ways it could be done/altered, and thats the direction I think they should focus on. Skill usage.

    Completly agree with you Proxy.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2017
    I don't really care what people suggest when it comes to actual facts. I can make that much distinction so I am sure I have not seen it in any of your posts, but I am fairly certain they did mention that focus will have other uses aside from the ultimate activation
  • Grisu said:
    I don't really care what people suggest when it comes to actual facts. I can make that much distinction so I am sure I have not seen it in any of your posts, but I am fairly certain they did mention that focus will have other uses aside from the ultimate activation
    Well, AFAIK the current system from PAX is the only hard fact, which was based on one skill ultimates, obviously due to the system that ultimate is "augmentable" but will still remain one skill. 

    If there is a statement as you claim then you need to provide a source for it. Everything outside the "hard facts" is merely concept or idea they are playing with. Not a confirmed Iteration of the combat development. So most of my suggestions stem not so much from what they have "said" but what they have "shown". And soon they will show new changes. Alpha Zero hype?
  • Would still prefer action-orientated/aimed targetting over tab targetting any day of... the history of games in general.
    Do have to agree on the timing thing being a plus, HOWEVER it needs to be 1. faster .. 2. while the timing might differ per skill, it should NEVER differ/randomise with the same skill. Thats where rng would come in and if there is one thing you do NOT want, its rng in combat.
  • Would still prefer action-orientated/aimed targetting over tab targetting any day of... the history of games in general.
    Do have to agree on the timing thing being a plus, HOWEVER it needs to be 1. faster .. 2. while the timing might differ per skill, it should NEVER differ/randomise with the same skill. Thats where rng would come in and if there is one thing you do NOT want, its rng in combat.
    The point of the RNG in the timer is to prevent the QTE being macro'd. If you remove the RNG, its easily macro'd (can do it via mouse keyboard software), and at that point makes the QTE redundant as a feature. Might as well just be a button activated attack.
  • I LOVE tera as everyone seen a bit earlier and PREFER action combat . . . but I enjoy games like Minecraft, Trove, Neverwinter, Skyforge, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ratchet and Clank, and WAY TOO MANY MORE GAMES.

    So my opinion is as long as the combat works properly and isn't just "thrown together" then I will adapt and have a great time.

  • Grisu said:
    but does that mean you can have more than one enabled at anyone one given time?
    At this point thats just a concept and not currently something that exsists in the current iteration correct?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2017
    Like I said, I am just fairly certain there was a mention of several different skills using focus, not just the ultimate. Which I have given now as prove.
    Steven is always very particulate about his chosen words and he makes the distinction between skills and ultimate, so it's not likely that he was just refering to different ultimates.
    So all I am doing is assuming here, nothing more, nothing less.
    In the first place tho the "current iteration" as you call it is just a "vertical slice to showcase what you can kind of expect from a class". Quote from somewhere in the video. We just got a few selected bare bone, non-augmented skills out of the larger skill pool from which we can choose.
    Imo we are getting to hung up on details for now so take this as you want, i delivered because apparently I have nothing better to do.
  • Good OP argument.

    But still the problem remains that skill time bar forces you to focus your vision on it more than you should, and not allowing you to enjoy the scenery and player surroundings while fighting.

    I would like to watch the world while fighting, more than I watch my UI.

    Rest of OP argument is good though.
  • Ok so there's a bunch of people arguing with each other about combat in MMOs, which is ok by me but it's not the thread topic.

    The OP was telling us about something that hardly anyone's complaining about, which is the action combat, and why it's good. Which isn't what anyone is complaining about, most of the community is complaining about the action bar at the bottom of the screen that takes your eyes away from the rest of what's going on. This is a mechanic of the action combat, not the action combat itself.

    In regards to this, OP is very misinformed about what the community is talking about. The AoC team, on the other hand, is not. And I think that the team is pretty good at listening to the community so there won't be much trouble around the combat system.
  • Gothix said:
    Good OP argument.

    But still the problem remains that skill time bar forces you to focus your vision on it more than you should, and not allowing you to enjoy the scenery and player surroundings while fighting.

    I would like to watch the world while fighting, more than I watch my UI.

    Rest of OP argument is good though.
    Maybe you should start memorizing skill cooldowns like I do in Tera :smile:

  • I would never recommend starting an argument with "I was top x or am this skill" because it actually always reduces credibility. If your point is strong it will be poignant regardless of what levels you reach. 

    Now to actually address what you said, I somewhat agree. No perfect mmo combat system has been found yet. I personally hate action combat systems as they are shallow and pull away from rpg mechanics. MMORPGs are far to MMO these days and its showing in the poor quality all around. Tab targeting has problems, and you addressed many of them, but it is a superior RPG system. You are far to uncharitable to its strengths such as rewarding game knowledge, proper builds, knowing what to do and when to do it, and fitting your basic rotations and optimal play pattern into the bosses dynamic fight.

    The boss isn't complex, the tab system isn't complex, but when put together well and multiplied over your party it creates complexity that is very engaging and fun. Action gameplay is the height of shallowness. They add a gimmicky dodge roll that is either op or useless and then warp boss mechanics around it. Tab games are usually much more difficult because of this because you have to be predictive and knowledgable. Reaction based mechanics are overrated. Having to commit and only being able to use cooldowns to stop poor play is far more skill intensive then always have a "get out of jail" card.

    Tabs can be boring though, especially if you master them. I think the system ashes is proposing is quite interesting in this regard as it rewards game knowledge and prediction but adds a reaction based mechanic into the ability that also rewards practice and can be messed with by external factors.
  • Lazerou said:
    @Marzzo1337 I find it a little bit strange that you are saying you are the best player in these games, but then saying the games are easy to master just by math or memory and they take no skill. I don't see the point of elevating an achievement in something that you then denigrate.

    It's like saying "I'm the best poker player. Poker is dumb."
    Something I also find very fishy is that he said "basically all relevant pvp games" when some all time classics are not on his list. Lineage 2, BDO, Blade and Soul are just some games that come to mind that should have been on the list in order to claim that you played all relevant pvp/pve games in history.

    The second fishy thing you already mentioned. If games are easy to master, then it is no achievement to be top in those games, as there is no skill or experience involved. I could be top if I played Hello Kitty Online, but being top in that game wouldn't contribute to my own skill and experience.

    The third fishy thing is "top ranked this season". This is subjective. Being top in a season in a game which nobody really plays anymore is also not much of an achievement. Being top while a game is in its prime is something big, but being top after over 10 years of a games existance.. meh..

    If combat needs an additional layer of difficulty - fine, so be it. I still don't like the slider in its current state and can't wait to see it reworked.
  • Have anyone suggested anything else ?
  • Although the OP makes some very good points, I give the dev team a lot more credit in having the insight and experience to understand the issues the OP raises and how to deal with them. I'm sure  they're aware of the issue regarding the distractibility of the timing bar, and they'll work on a solution. It's not even Alpha yet, and the dev team is about to gain immeasurably valuable data on combat from Alpha0. I'm going to wait until beta before I start worrying about combat.
  • @Wanderlust_AOC
     Beta is kinda late, right ? 
    • I would say (maybe) Alpha Phase 1 or Alpha Phase 2
  • Eragale said:
    Have anyone suggested anything else ?

    Yes, "normal" action combat, without time bar.
  • Hey 2.4k player myself to,

    People always complain when there is new stuff, for my self I was the same but after a little bit of aftermaths in my brain I was like, this could work xD

    Lets check it out and tune it from there, @Marzzo1337  you are in A0.

  • There are pros and cons to both systems of TAB and Action.

    I Personally prefer Tab targeting in my MMO games because  the pros outweigh any benefits action combat offer as a primary option. Environmental awareness in 3rd person free camera is just to important in a massive multiplayer game IMO.

    Tab targeting also has a less frustrating tolerance for latency compensation making my play experience more enjoyable.On the other hand, Most Action combat I find is overly reliant on AOE and Cleave abilities which neuter any perception of Skill* because with  latency the majority of direct* attacks would actually miss/wiff and as the player numbers increase the saturation of AOE floods the  combat space converting it into a clusterfudge of high latency, aka not fun.

    So there are benefits to having elements of  both systems and I am personally happy with Tab targeting in Ashes.

    The UI slider on the other hand is trash, It is a vestigial UI distraction with absolutely no counter play and its novelty will ware off after an hour. It is a poor excuse for complexity, will punish high ping, offer nothing truly dynamic or actually engaging combat wise other than a placebo.
    The UI QTE regardless of how customisable* it's pitched is still a fundamentally lazy out of date solution* to what could be achieved with modern tech. Fighting the UI as well as your opponent is not the rewarding type of complexity nor does it encourage skill*




  • I would never recommend starting an argument with "I was top x or am this skill" because it actually always reduces credibility. If your point is strong it will be poignant regardless of what levels you reach. 

    Now to actually address what you said, I somewhat agree. No perfect mmo combat system has been found yet. I personally hate action combat systems as they are shallow and pull away from rpg mechanics. MMORPGs are far to MMO these days and its showing in the poor quality all around. Tab targeting has problems, and you addressed many of them, but it is a superior RPG system. You are far to uncharitable to its strengths such as rewarding game knowledge, proper builds, knowing what to do and when to do it, and fitting your basic rotations and optimal play pattern into the bosses dynamic fight.

    The boss isn't complex, the tab system isn't complex, but when put together well and multiplied over your party it creates complexity that is very engaging and fun. Action gameplay is the height of shallowness. They add a gimmicky dodge roll that is either op or useless and then warp boss mechanics around it. Tab games are usually much more difficult because of this because you have to be predictive and knowledgable. Reaction based mechanics are overrated. Having to commit and only being able to use cooldowns to stop poor play is far more skill intensive then always have a "get out of jail" card.

    Tabs can be boring though, especially if you master them. I think the system ashes is proposing is quite interesting in this regard as it rewards game knowledge and prediction but adds a reaction based mechanic into the ability that also rewards practice and can be messed with by external factors.
    Go play tera. By far the best combat system I have ever seen. The story is fairly lackluster though so don't bother trying to bring it up . . . I ALREADY KNOW!
  • @Gothix not what meant

    This link for example
    ... This is what i thought of.

     It has nothing to do with the Combat-System(s), but the Combat-Style(s) and how the it'll be conveyed ; the many different potential-elements that'll constantly be presented to the Player - thus causing their to be uniqueness compared to other MMOs

    i.e.  " In short, i just think that other " Foundations " can be considered & expanded upon before settling to whats already there "
  • Something outside the box
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