Taunting - PVP vs PVE. What's known and what's desired.

ArchivedUser

Taunting - PVP vs PVE. What's known and what's desired.

So I'm still new to this game and something that interests me is how will taunting be used int his game. How will it differ from PVP vs PVE.

To get this rolling if someone that already has a firm understanding of this

From aocwiki.net/Tank



So was wondering how much will Hatred / Taunt differ from PVE to PVP?

How does Taunt effect a player vs how a Taunt effects a NPC/MOB?

Will a person / mob be able to resist a Taunt? 

If a Mob / Player is taunted can it be broken by another Mob / Player through an ability that can interrupt the taunt?

I am really curious on how this works and differs between PVE and PVP mechanics. My hopes are, that a system is created or already in place, where there is not much or no difference between how Taunt mechanics work between PVE and PVP. That the system in AI mechanics in PVE group rolls, work the same as the mechanics of rolls in class abilities in PVP.

ArchivedUser

It looks like they are going with the pretty standard "threat" level and have renamed it "hate." So basically a PVE mob will concentrate its attacks on whoever has the highest hate. A taunt used by a tank generates a huge amount of hate, causing the mob to target them over others, however dps burst classes can pull the mob off of the tank by generating more hate at a faster rate than the tank.

For pvp we don't have any hard information yet on how they plan to make it relevant. For most games a taunt is useless in pvp, others go with a debuff being applied, and Divinity 2 had the mechanic where you lost control of the character for a period of time, similar to being charmed or mind controlled. I personally don't see them going with something that makes you lose active control of your character, most likely some sort of debuff, less than a movement cc or root. Another example for a debuff is for the period of time applied you do less damage to anyone but the tank.

ArchivedUser

@UnknownSystemError TY for your reply you seem to be an amazing source of information on this game. See you everywhere I look.  I take it you have been following this project from just about the beginning?

Can't wait till they release more info on this. They will prob be testing a few viable options during various alpha phases.

In a lot of games they focus so much on the PVE they don't really work on the transition of how those skills work in PVP. Sometimes almost making some skill irrelevant in PVP in comparison to PVE. It will be interesting to see what happens in this game.

ArchivedUser

Yeah we really only have been able to speculate up to this point. But there are some abilities that cause the enemy to "Lose Target" which essentially means that they are no longer targeting the person who cast the spell. I think that Taunts could work in the opposite direction and force an enemy to be targeting you. Of course this wouldn't matter if the enemy is using action oriented abilities, but it is an idea.

ArchivedUser

Usually the dps classes will have a "lower hate" or similar mechanic to cause pve mobs to stop targeting them over another. In pvp, the mages blink and the rogues invisibility may cause those using tab targeted abilities to lose target, but as Zastro said, that is where those that go with a more action oriented abilities or aoe may shine. Other classes may have a similar mechanic in the name of "balance", will be fun times over the next year figuring it all out.

ArchivedUser

I would desire taunt and tanking in general to be possible in pvp. My ideal is either tanks do damage and can actually fight (but maybe less burst) so im not bored or players will have a form of 'aggro' 

Like a taunt for a player debuffs them heavily unless they are attacking the tank. I'm sure more creative people than me can make an amazing system. I just don't want wow style no shields or anything tanky pvp. I want to be a frontliner, I want to be able to use a shield and still do respectable damage. Maybe I can't have both but its how I feel as a tank main for many different mmos.

ArchivedUser

I think it would be interesting to try to get some of these skills that are usaually avoided in PVP to actually be able to be used in PVP for a change. It would be a challenge for the developers but I think it would bring a type of PVP combat that just hasn't been done well.

I for one would love to see Taunt be able to function in some way in PVP. Even if for a shorter duration or maybe the same as in PVE. Maybe as a player taunts someone from your team there are some abilities someone from the group could use to break the taunt as well.

2 PVP groups fighting each other if they both have taunts why not allow them to use it. Maybe have some skill factors involved to see if it ends sooner or last longer between the Taunter and Tauntee. Maybe while some classes are able to taunt there could be some classes able to break taunts in a PVP atmosphere. 

In a graphic way maybe a taunt could show as the person taunting's position could readjust.

Well I hope they find a balanced way to keep it in PVP. 

ArchivedUser

I still think a PVE style combat system in PVP is a potential goldmine @Dorje Imagine the footsys of trying to keep your melee either on top of their ranged or protecting your own. The slow but terrifying tanky guy having a pocket healer that you need to kill or he'll outlast gank squads. The multiple ranged characters playing keep away from a couple bruisers and needing skill to avoid the hammer. Ranged vs Melee is something that is never really done right and it infuriates me no ones cracked the code yet.

ArchivedUser

Wizardfrog said:

I still think a PVE style combat system in PVP is a potential goldmine

@Wizardfrog I completely with you on this and I want that algorithm and code to be  broken as well. I really hope they can, cause, it will in fact be a gold mine.

ArchivedUser

I do hope there is more utility for tanks in PvP, taunts is an area that for the most part has not been used in an inventive way. How about the more hate you generate towards a player with specific taunt skills the less damage they can do both to you or other players. This could decay over time if no further taunts are applied or could be purged with an appropriate skill, just a thought.

Would like to see more PvP use for taunt skills.

ArchivedUser

Taunt in PvP could be done so that when you are taunted, all players but the one that taunted you become un tab-targetable for you for a short time. You could still manually aim spells, but you could not tab target them to use tab-target spells.

ArchivedUser

Gothix said:

Taunt in PvP could be done so that when you are taunted, all players but the one that taunted you become un tab-targetable for you for a short time. You could still manually aim spells, but you could not tab target them to use tab-target spells.

Interesting idea

ArchivedUser

Gothix said:

Taunt in PvP could be done so that when you are taunted, all players but the one that taunted you become un tab-targetable for you for a short time. You could still manually aim spells, but you could not tab target them to use tab-target spells.

Depending on the cooldown of the taunt to prevent overuse and it's duration, that's not a bad alternative to just applying a debuff to the taunted player for not engaging the player who taunted over others.

I could see that being used as a sort of save in pvp. Healer is getting taken down, taunt at the last second to prevent the killing blow and buy the healer some time to recover.

ArchivedUser

Hey @Dorje, I speculated on this in the article I wrote on Ashen Foundry last week, in the section "Targeting Mechanics and Threat" (https://ashenfoundry.com/articles/alpha-zero-ability-mechanics/)

My read is that there are two taunt mechanics in play Hate, and Force Target. The abilities mentioned are confirmed by intrepid, but the rest is my speculation and inference.

Hate / Reduce Hate

Hate is the term Intrepid is using for "threat" or "taunt" in Ashes. I expect Hate will be PvE only as in PvP players have agency over choosing their own target with the notable exception of Force Target which I'll get to in a minute. The Tank archetype has four abilities (so far) which are confirmed to generate hate: 
https://ashenfoundry.com/compendium/effect/hate/

In contrast, the Mage and Cleric archetypes each have an ability which is used to reduce Hate. Interestingly, the Ranger doesn't have a de-taunt ability.
https://ashenfoundry.com/compendium/effect/reduce-hate/

Force Target / Lose Target

Unlike Hate and Reduce Hate which I expect will only modify PvE encounters, abilities which Force Target or Lose Target I expect will be useful in PvX. My read of this effect is as follows:

In PvE, Force Target will temporarily move the player to the top of the Hate table, overriding whatever normal Hate level they have. In PvP, Force Target will cause the affected player's tab-target lock to switch to the forcing player. Whether or not the affected player will be able to immediately switch back, or whether they will be unable to switch targets for a few seconds remains to be seen. The Tank has 2 abilities (so far) which can Force Target: https://ashenfoundry.com/compendium/effect/force-target/

With regards to Lose Target, I expect that in PvE it will dump the player to the bottom of the Hate table temporarily. In PvP, I expect it will simply clear the affected player's tab target (and possibly prevent them from immediately re-acquiring). The Cleric and Mage abilities which Reduce Hate also apply Lose Target: https://ashenfoundry.com/compendium/effect/lose-target/

ArchivedUser

@Atropos Wow very nicely written and explained. TY very much.

In PvP, Force Target will cause the affected player's tab-target lock to switch to the forcing player. Whether or not the affected player will be able to immediately switch back, or whether they will be unable to switch targets for a few seconds remains to be seen. 

I guess this will be determined through Alpha testing. It is an interesting method and am curious to how it will work out. I hope they test out the not being able to switch targets for a few seconds. If they can make it work in a balanced way will make for interesting game play.

Just checked out the https://ashenfoundry.com/articles/alpha-zero-ability-mechanics/

Some impressive amount of info and very easy to look at nicely written.  I have added a link to the website in my signature this was my first visit great website. Did not notice it listed in the AOC Wiki Helpful Links. I'll ask them to add it.