Open World PvP

Hi Ashes of Creation Team,

i wanted to talk about a very important thing in a MMORPG, like the topic says "PvP"

I hope you guys think about us too. In all the Years i Played MMORPGS (WoW, Aion, RIFT, Tera, Blade and Soul) i can clearly say in all ways PvE was really good, i had absolutly nothing to talk about bad things, i cant even say bad things to PvE Content in all this Games.

But one Point dissapointed me really often, and it was PvP, i really Love PvP and i think there are a lot of Players who loves PvP too.

In all this games i Listed, there is one Game where the PvP made a lot of fun, and it was AION.
I know AoC is not Aion, but i hope you implent a good OPEN WORLD PVP in this Game.

Little Description:

In Aion you had Quests, where you get Rewards you only got from Open World PvP, dungeons you could only Enter if you Raided with 200-500 people to get PvP Points for your PvP gear, Quests you only could do in PvP Area, Normal Dungeons you could only Enter in PvP area.
(In Some dungeons you cant avoid PvP to enter a PvE dungeon, or World Bosses)
there was no (I turn now PvP on or off) it was 2 Factions who permanently stayed in "war" to each other, when you saw somebody, you attacked him.

Even when you had General Status in PvP or TOP 1, you could Transform into a Guardian for 10-15 Minutes, and while Transforming there was a notice for the Server that Player XY Transformed into a Guardian.

There was PvP Ranks, Rank 9 - 1, Officer, General, and TOP 1 (Forgot the name)
So Higher the PvP Rank you killed, so much PvP points you got or Lost.

There was Quests like kill 10x Rank 9 Players, after that Kill 10x Rank 8 players and so on.

And After the Kill 3x Asmodian/Elyos General's you got a Legendary Godstone

I can really say it was such a nice Play to make a Group and do Open PvP in PvP Areas.
In AoC we really need this too, please implent items you can only obtain through PvP, and only through OPEN PvP, otherwise the open PvP in this game will be dead like the Open PvP in Blade and Soul.

For Example, in B&S at lvl 45, you had 4-5 Quests (Open World PvP) if you finished it you got 7-11 Soulstones Per day, and this was the only way to obtain Soulstones. After content upgrade and level upgrade to lvl 50 it was ruined, you got Soulstones in PvE and the Open World PvP was dead.

Shortly what i want to try to say is:
Please and i really know there are Players who think like me, please implent a good Open World PvP, people who played Aion know exactly what i mean.

I go now on Youtube and try to search a nice Open World PvP Video

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eSLEPja7u8

Video is not the Best, but it shows what i mean, Video Starts at: 2:22Min

Best Regards
Sylarr

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Comments

  • UnknownSystemErrorUnknownSystemError Member, Alpha 0 Participant, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
  • ElderElder Member alpha-stress-tester
    I was going to do the same but decided it wasn't worth my time.  :D


    "Which is the greater folly, summoning the Demon or expecting gratitude from it?"


  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member ✭✭
    Sadly I don't think we will get to see an owpvp game as good as aion until aion 2 eventually gets announced. I will say that this game seems to be aiming to make owpvp, in a variety of formats, a large part of the game. 

    Node/castle sieges seem like they will be reminiscent of fort sieges in the abyss(minus the flying), but with added layer too it in actual node defenses(possible ballistas, archer towers, whatever they actually end up putting in), and the objectives will work differently. Also it won't be timed like the abyss forts were, it will be player decision that forces this. So sadly these sieges run the chance of being infrequent when compared to forts. 

    Even with the flagging system, I doubt we will ever get the kind of everyday pvp we saw in aion. Aion, it was just daily life that red=dead. So there will be less of that, but I'm hoping we see a decent incentive by launch to stay flagged, which would make it a little better. 

    However, caravans sound like they could get close to that true open world pvp feeling. It will definitely lose a bit of that "always looking over your shoulder" feeling Aion gave, but at the same time, you are a huge target, and you have no idea if you'll face no opposition or a giant Zerg. Some I'm looking forward to this. 

    This game has the potential to have amazing owpvp. Way more controlled and friendly for people who don't want to participate in it but plenty of outlets for those who do. As long as they add incentive to flag and stay flagged while doing every day questing/gathering we will be in good shape. My opinion really does hinge on that incentive tho, because if it's just the death penalties, that wont be enough to get people to stop people from only owpvpiny on their terms. 

    And for owpvp to not feel scripted and bland you need to have those frequent situations where ganking can happen; where someone can totally just come up and wreck your day because you weren't paying attention. 
    Proud member of Temple Community gaming! Message myself or another member to find out how to join today! 
  • SylarrSylarr Member
    im sorry for double post, it was just in my mind, and i wanted to share it with the community.

    i still just hope they make a great open pvp
  • DygzDygz Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Sylarr said:
    2 Factions who permanently stayed in "war" to each other, when you saw somebody, you attacked him.
    Auto-fail.
    That really is more like some kind of MMOPVP game than an RPG.
    One of the best parts of the Ashes design is having real in-game story reasons to be in conflict with other players and want to battle them besides "I want to upgrade my PvP-gear" or "She's flagged as the enemy - KOS!!!"

    In Ashes:
    We attack the players protecting a rival caravan to prevent an adjacent town from becoming a city so the don't lock our node at the town Stage.

    If we fail and the town does become a city, we stage a siege to try to knock it back down to the town Stage.

    Perhaps some players will hold grudges and KOS other players they've fought before. But, they might also set aside those grudges and band together to defeat a rampaging Dragon terrorizing their region.

    Perhaps a cult in the Science Metropolis hates fast travel and allies with players in rival nodes to have them destroy the fast travel network.


    Ashes doesn't have PvP gear separate from PvE gear.
    Hopefully, we can minimize the meta reasons for combat - especially PvP combat - like upgrading gear. And maximize the in-game story reasons for combat - like competing for local resources or who gets to reach the metropolis Stage and who doesn't.
  • HavenHaven Member
    The pvp should be nice its has a Archage/Lineage 2 theme 2 it and those are my favs :)

    Loyalty & Respect


  • SylarrSylarr Member
    the caravan pvp sounds really interessting :) :)
  • FyziksFyziks Member ✭✭
    None faction OW choice to ally to advance ,combat to compete carries enough tangible reward for a considerate player. Extreme pvp players will gravitate to military focused nodes for their constant kill fix. I foresee that the presently undefined support classes like Bard which seem unlikely military node choices will become the defining defensive factor for keeping your node up in a siege.
    SARDONIC
  • SylarrSylarr Member
    Sounds good, but to be honest i really missed the open world pvp! :-)
    i saw blessed will be released in europe soon, saw some videos on youtube, and it has like aion Faction vs Faction PvP with Questing regions you cant aviod PvP.
    But lets see what happens in AoC, i think they do a good work, and i really hope they think about the "pvp" players, really missed the open world point, pvp rankings etc.
    im really bored about arena-pvp (had it too much in Blade & Soul)
    I Put all my hopes in this game :smiley: #MakeMMOGreatAgain #AoCNumber1 #OpenWorldPvP
  • zazukeyszazukeys Member ✭✭✭
    @Sylarr
    I am really excited as well and can hardly contain it :star:
    :mrgreen:

    Image result for ace signature
  • RodzorRodzor Member ✭✭
    Hopefully they stick to their original plans for this PvP system, its great. I hope there is not too many people against it, it does sound scary. But what fun is a game without a little risk?
  • SylarrSylarr Member
    Rodzor said:
    Hopefully they stick to their original plans for this PvP system, its great. I hope there is not too many people against it, it does sound scary. But what fun is a game without a little risk?
    yes i think its worth risking some great ideas :smile:
  • ValerianValerian Member ✭✭
    Unfortunately, the flagging system will prevent the kind of open world pvp like Aion. Because people will just not fight back and your going to have dozens of people corrupted and get weaker to pvp afterwards. There is a risk vs reward approach to open world pvp in Ashes. Aion didn't have a risk vs reward mentality.
  • DygzDygz Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    The flagging system does absolutely nothing to prevent open world PvP combat.
    The flaggining system potentially limits free-for-all PvP combat by penalizing killing non-combatants.
  • ArgentdawnArgentdawn Member alpha-stress-tester
    The flagging system does absolutely something to prevent open world PvP. While yes it does "potentially limit free for all pvp" it also enables people to completely abuse the system and troll people out in the open world by simply refusing to attack back causing corruption for the forced kill.

  • CylverRayneCylverRayne Member alpha-0-rank
    The flagging system does absolutely something to prevent open world PvP. While yes it does "potentially limit free for all pvp" it also enables people to completely abuse the system and troll people out in the open world by simply refusing to attack back causing corruption for the forced kill.
    You can't have it both ways.  If the person who doesn't fight back is a troll, what do you call the ganker?  One was minding his own business the other being a PIA and bully.  
  • SylarrSylarr Member
    i played few weeks ago bless online, it was open pvp like in aion, the good thing there was when you had lvl 1-44 you could use an item which granted you 10 min immunity to pvp, but if you reached max level, you couldnt use such item anymore.
    so people can level but at max level they cant avoid pvp, bless was completly s*it game, but this idea was pretty nice.
  • ArgentdawnArgentdawn Member alpha-stress-tester
    The flagging system does absolutely something to prevent open world PvP. While yes it does "potentially limit free for all pvp" it also enables people to completely abuse the system and troll people out in the open world by simply refusing to attack back causing corruption for the forced kill.
    You can't have it both ways.  If the person who doesn't fight back is a troll, what do you call the ganker?  One was minding his own business the other being a PIA and bully.  
    The "both ways" scenario occurs when hunting a specific type of enemy or resource. If I attack you (and not kill you) to deter you from obtaining the resources I'm obtaining and all you do is wait for combat to drop and go back to taking resources (because your already aware the punishment for corruption is more severe than non-combatant) I'm forced to kill and gain corruption. 

  • CylverRayneCylverRayne Member alpha-0-rank
    So the person who doesn't respond to being smacked is a troll?   Standing up to a bully and denying him satisfaction in his aggressive behavior by giving him what he wants is being defensive, not being a troll.  It takes a bigger person to stare a bully in the eyes and say "No" and turn the other cheek.   
    Defense comes in different ways.  Deal with it just as they have to.
  • DygzDygz Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15
    What's great about Bless Online PvP combat is that dying doesn't significantly affect your play session. You die. Respawn about 2 minutes away from your corpse -which is clearly marked on the mini-map- and continue your progression.
    You aren't even in contested zones until Level 30 and the max is Level 45.
    If you die often enough, you will eventually have to spend a few pennies to repair your armor, but it's truly an insignificant cost.

    Open world PvP means PvP combat that is not instanced.
    Corruption has absolutely nothing to do with that.

    Corruption is a deterrent intended to minimize free-for-all PvP combat.
    Free-for-all PvP combat and open world combat are not synonymous.

    And let's not forget that the "troll" who refuses to fight back gets double the death penalty upon death as a combatant. So, there is a bit of a penalty for such behavior as well.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    The flagging system does absolutely something to prevent open world PvP. While yes it does "potentially limit free for all pvp" it also enables people to completely abuse the system and troll people out in the open world by simply refusing to attack back causing corruption for the forced kill.
    That isn't abusing the system.

    That *IS* the system.
  • EragaleEragale Member alpha-0-rank
    Couple of things to take note
    • All of those MMOs you've listed are Themepark MMOs . Themepark MMOs are only a " one-time thing " - once you go through it all once, the next time is going to be a chore. Ashes of Creation is more SandBox related. But the Nodes are the closest themepark aspect ... but base don further information thats been revealed about Ashes of Creation ... those Themepark aspects are narrow-minded at best, and dodesn't really suite Ashes of Creation. In other words, it'll make Ashes of Creation worse based on how the Devs wants Ashes to be well-rounded & connected ... meaning that Ashes of Creation's Design will outshine those aforementioned Themepark MMOs.
    With that said, i personally detest " Organized Open-World PvP " . It becomes too similar like Arena-PvP/ BattleGrounds-PvP. There's no element of Surprise, predictable and it gets dull and ruins any True Open-World PvP. And other things.

    It practically promotes Zerging imo
    • You're out doing your own thing, trying to gather/ finish a mission/ exploring/ crafting/ etc ... and all of a sudden you see 20 - 40 players marching in your general direction about to meet up with another 20 - 40 players. And they see you ... 
    • they either mistaken you for an opponent or attack regardless without caring (since they're no factions)
    And the idea of PvP-Only Mission doesn't really help ..

    Sylarr said:
    I can really say it was such a nice Play to make a Group and do Open PvP in PvP Areas.In AoC we really need this too, please implent items you can only obtain through PvP, and only through OPEN PvP, 

    No, we don't need Organized Open-World PvP.

    But, You must remember is that EVERY MMO youv mentioned always tried to keep the PvErs' Activities  & PvPers' Activities separate ( mostly ) . Ashes of Creation is making a PvX MMO - meaning there are trying to give reasons for both sides - PvE Activities & PvP Activities to play/ interact together. Same goes for RPers too ... but RPers can improvise  :p . But More or less, still play together. 

    The " item part " is good, so as long as its not PvP-exclusive. Rather for anyone.
    Still though, Ashes of Creation does seem to favor a SandBox MMO.

    Bare in mind that the entire premise of a PvP Engagement would depend on what their Combat is like. Plus the thoughtfulness of a variety of Abilities 
    • Such as Low-Lvls still having a chance to defeat  high-lvl player(s) via variety & open mindedness of abilities, not letting gear be the sole-deciding factor, and other things

  • EragaleEragale Member alpha-0-rank
    Dygz said:
    Hopefully, we can minimize the meta reasons for [...]


    Not only combat, but gearing, progression, PvE Victor, PvP Gear, OP Builds that creates " Meta " to begin with, etc ... many words/ phrases can use to fit this sentence tbh.

    Many concerns I've been reading all stem from the MindSet of Older MMOs - but it doesn't have to resemble anything like them.

    But i understand their concerns though
  • DygzDygz Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    OP builds do not create meta - meta creates OP builds.
  • EragaleEragale Member alpha-0-rank
    Dygz said:
    OP builds do not create meta - meta creates OP builds.
    Thats ...  not true at all.
    Their are 64 Archetype builds - are being unique and different towards one another. They all should have their Pros & Cons.

    But if one performs better over another then that's obviously a problem
    However, that'll also be dependent on how Intrepid constructs the Majority of their Combat - in particular, lots of abilities options + player's choosing how they want to play based on what abilities are provided to them  

    Including any hardcore aspects. For example
    • the difference between a Newb Super Smash Bros (melee) player vs a Veteren Smash Bros (melee)  Player ... its a big difference 
    There could potentially be other variables to consider, but we'll wait and see Intrepid's other iterations of Combat .. because so far its just Tab-Target

    What's my point ? I'll let the below video-link speak for itself. I'll even link the starting-timestamp and post where to stop at.

  • DygzDygz Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are 64 builds that will have their strengths and weaknesses. Across 9 races. Plus racial augments and social augments and religious augments.
    Determining which of those is objectively OP is meta.
    It's the meta mindset that creates OP builds.
    And, really, it's the concept that one performs better than another that is meta because the whole point of RPGs is that some combos work better in specific situations than others, rather than having cookie-cutter builds that are always "best".
    Seeking cookie-cutter builds that are always best is a meta concept. And, there will always be players stating that they have found the "best" build, regardless of whether it's objectively true.
  • GanrichGanrich Member
    New guy here.  I dont want to get into the weeds of a  meta/builds debate. It's a little bit of a chicken and the egg scenario. It really depends on point of view, and to a greater extent the game's balance .

    However, this corruption system...  I dont have a lot of faith in it.  Here is a scenario:  I'm killing mobs, I drop AoE on mobs, player Rogue who is stealthed steps into my AoE, and now he is 100% safe in ganking me.  It just seems fairly exploitable.  Maybe the devs have covered this, and I just havent seen it.

    It doesnt really matter to me as I have always veered toward pvp servers, and I'm used to ganking and have done some ganking myself . However, I don't see this a fool proof.  It might be wasted time trying to control the chaos . There may be a way to do it, but IMHO there will always be loopholes and edge cases where it doesn't work.
  • UnknownSystemErrorUnknownSystemError Member, Alpha 0 Participant, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
    Ganrich said:
    New guy here.  I dont want to get into the weeds of a  meta/builds debate. It's a little bit of a chicken and the egg scenario. It really depends on point of view, and to a greater extent the game's balance .

    However, this corruption system...  I dont have a lot of faith in it.  Here is a scenario:  I'm killing mobs, I drop AoE on mobs, player Rogue who is stealthed steps into my AoE, and now he is 100% safe in ganking me.  It just seems fairly exploitable.  Maybe the devs have covered this, and I just havent seen it.

    It doesnt really matter to me as I have always veered toward pvp servers, and I'm used to ganking and have done some ganking myself . However, I don't see this a fool proof.  It might be wasted time trying to control the chaos . There may be a way to do it, but IMHO there will always be loopholes and edge cases where it doesn't work.
    Like GI Joe said, "Knowing is half the battle." Your example of aoe flagging has already been addressed almost a year ago. You have to force target someone with a single ability to flag on them, aoe won't do it. Most of the loopholes our "experts" have come up with have been closed, and once the system is given over for testing there is a dedicated core group that plans on breaking it over and over till it is fixed. There are several detailed examples of how they envision the corruption system working and the deterrent factor will be raised or lowered during testing after it is seen in play.

  • EragaleEragale Member alpha-0-rank
    @UnknownSystemError
    Never heard of these " experts " , but i always figured testers will assist in breaking it & fixing it
  • EragaleEragale Member alpha-0-rank
    @Ganrich
    I actually thought of that at first too, but try this for example ...
    Read this Post i made recently - it's something that should definitely be considered too
    Its something i posted on another thread recently
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