Leveling for tanks and healers

One thing that has always been difficult in mmorpgs is leveling as a healer or as a tank. Because of their low damage output. I don't really now of a solution for this but I think as a community we could think of one. Also finding groups to level with is easy for some people but for others is hard. After all, a lot of us have trouble asking others for help even in games. So maybe implement a system that allows to group up with parties to level up or think of a way to solve the low damage output of tanks and healers. Making their damage higher might not be the best solution because that's the role of dps characters after all. Also we need to find a way to make the tank and healer classes more popular because in most of the games an extremely small amount of people plays them.
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Comments

  • That grouping system that you are trying to implement will probably never happen in AOC. Steven has already expressed how there will not be a dungeon finder or group finder. He, as well as many other people find that you do not get to make friends if they are “given” to you through a finder. It makes it so there is a lack of community and you have no loyalty or friendship (99%) of the time. The reason number one reason I feel people go back to games is because it’s fun, and usually people are part of the fun. Take for example the game wild star. I LOVED that game(at the start)  and I thought eh it doesn’t matter if it has a low population I’ll stilm play it and have just as much fun. In the end I got bored really really fast because I didn’t have the interaction with friends. Now of course this was basically impossible because it was a game that was deserted. But my point still stands. In order to have lasting relationships with people you need more theN One interaction with them. And not having a group finder makes you play with the same people more because it is who you know. :) that’s my drawn out 2 cents. Also not many people playing tanks and healers is a good thing I think. Makes those people feel more special who do play them. Because usually it’s more boring for them and they are not the ones “ripping” heads off and taking names with their damage. But instead they are the ones supporting and taking the damage for others. It’s a very different kind of feel to it. Also I feel like in AOC there can be off tanks and off healers because of the secondary class so I don’t feel like this will be a problem with leveling. 
    Yours truely,
    SgtFire
  • I'm really hoping the secondary classes will allow for the extra DPS for basic leveling. Like an "off DPS" if you will. I think the caravan system will help if the reward includes XP. You just sign up for caravan duty and hope to get pulled in. 
  • Sgtfire said:
    That grouping system that you are trying to implement will probably never happen in AOC. Steven has already expressed how there will not be a dungeon finder or group finder. He, as well as many other people find that you do not get to make friends if they are “given” to you through a finder. It makes it so there is a lack of community and you have no loyalty or friendship (99%) of the time. The reason number one reason I feel people go back to games is because it’s fun, and usually people are part of the fun. Take for example the game wild star. I LOVED that game(at the start)  and I thought eh it doesn’t matter if it has a low population I’ll stilm play it and have just as much fun. In the end I got bored really really fast because I didn’t have the interaction with friends. Now of course this was basically impossible because it was a game that was deserted. But my point still stands. In order to have lasting relationships with people you need more theN One interaction with them. And not having a group finder makes you play with the same people more because it is who you know. :) that’s my drawn out 2 cents. Also not many people playing tanks and healers is a good thing I think. Makes those people feel more special who do play them. Because usually it’s more boring for them and they are not the ones “ripping” heads off and taking names with their damage. But instead they are the ones supporting and taking the damage for others. It’s a very different kind of feel to it. Also I feel like in AOC there can be off tanks and off healers because of the secondary class so I don’t feel like this will be a problem with leveling. 
    Yours truely,
    SgtFire
    I agree with Sgtfire in regards to group finding.  Creatig a group should not be given to you by a system of sort, but rather be made by the person themselves.  If finding people is an issue, one way is to join guilds and ask any members. 
  • @Chronoaxer @Sgtfire

    Yeah, sometimes the old ways are the best ways. When playing Everquest (the first one) finding a group often resorted to two things. The regional chat of people looking to add something to a group, or the process of having a button setup for looking to make a group to camp something.

    Those worked wonders and when you sat in place and chatted with people while waiting for respawns it forged bonds. Many of the people I met while working from levels 15 to 35 were the same ones I was doing raids with when we hit the level cap. Other times you'd get requests from those people to go to far off places because they trusted your capabilities. 

    It's a better system than randomly shoving people together where you have a me against them attitude at times.
  • I don't see there is a fix as such for slower levelling of tanks and healers, its just a part of the game, I know this as I always play a tank or healer so I just accept it. Yes grouping up can help and the best way to do that is with guild mates who play at or around the same time as you but even this does not always work. Its a tough road being tank or heals in the solo world. 
  • The system to find leveling partners is the same system that enables online gaming.  We call it The Internet. 

    Join a discord server with like-minded people. Talk to people with in-game chat mechanisms.  Make friends on forums (like this one).  Or (and this one's the real shocker) ... join a guild.  You can even start one of your own to facilitate exactly what you want.

    As for the speed of levelling a tank or healer ... try the suggestions above.  Make a friend and level together.  Or use a different build (each class has 8 sub-classes which can be changed when you decide you want to be a pure healer).  In games where healers and tanks were more difficult to level, the payoff was well worth it, anyway, and that's really all that's needed. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    When I wrote this I didn't meant to suggest an group finder/dungeon finder function. I meant other way of solving the problem. For instance, in the classic wow people would have to group up because after each monster they might run out of mana. I don't mean that we have to play a game where leveling takes ages. But atleast make it so that if players want to level faster or clear some zones they need to ask each other for help. Or maybe even make a system that lets players announce for others to join their party when they are about to engage a strong monster. This might also encourage for pvp, after all if you know a party is going to engage a monster it gives pkers the information that after the monster the party might be low hp. This might make parties formed randomly take things more seriously because they might be pked after fighting strong monsters, world bosses, etc. Also fighting strong monsters alone isn't anywhere near as fun as defeating them with a party. Because if you defeat it together with a party then you have a shared memory  with the party of a big accomplishment. Well to summarize a leveling system that encourages players to group up instead of playing solo.
  • Leveling needs to be made around single playing, not everyone wants to join parties so a healer/tank who likes to solo wouldn't even level.

    I'm sure that all classes will have some sort of dps ability to help them level, additionaly if healers could gain exp from healing and tanks from soaking up dmg then again powerleveling would be too easy for them.
  • Leveling needs to be made around single playing, not everyone wants to join parties so a healer/tank who likes to solo wouldn't even level.

    I'm sure that all classes will have some sort of dps ability to help them level, additionaly if healers could gain exp from healing and tanks from soaking up dmg then again powerleveling would be too easy for them.
    leveling will most likely be safer with a group but manageable solo. We are yet to see leveling mechanics, quests, group benefits, or enemy difficulty. We do know that enemies of varying level will be within each node so you could run into a lvl 18 when your level 6 if your not careful. 
  • We all know support classes will be in high demand although if you are a tank I think you will be fairly self sufficient at soloing if you desire.  
  • zazukeys said:
    We all know support classes will be in high demand although if you are a tank I think you will be fairly self sufficient at soloing if you desire.  
    It depends directly on your survivability to attack potency ratio. Tanks and healers are always hard to balance between the two. Often times a tank class can survive just long enough to barely kill something solo but on the other hand look at WoW and the tanks ROFLstomp anything we come across. 

    Another huge influence is how much a tank will stand out from other classes.. do we get more health? Do we have the same health but mitigate more? Are we able to self heal? 

    If damage is to high then they become a power House in pvp. If damage is to low it doesn't matter that they survived for 6 minutes in that fight against *random unnamed mob* if it comes down to the last few seconds needing a critical hit to win.

    I will inevitably end up being a tank just like I do in every other MMO so fingers crossed either we end up impossible to kill and can't kill anything.. or a fair middle ground is found. 
  • Funny how people see the world dungeon finder and automatically assume one thing:
    Instant grouping and teleporting to whatever you grouped for.
    For that, it's true, they won't implement something like that, but!!
    Steven expressed that there will be an interface to ease your way into >>finding<< people who want to do the same thing. You will still have to write them interact with them, but it is still a group finding tool.

    To the topic itself, if you look at the skills they published you will find that they have a lot of healing while damaging the enemy effects. In the end it will be a balancing thing but I woould say they are keeping it in mind so you have a lot more options than in most other mmos as healers for example.
  • Maybe give healers the ability the capability to damage mobs with their healing abilities. Like those abilities that work only on monsters but not on players. With tanks the issue sometimes is that they are too slow when killing monsters so while a dps kills 10 monsters and losses half of his hp, the tank kills only 2 or 3 monsters and doesn't lose hp.  So maybe giving the tanks the same thing as the healers (class abilities dealing damage to monsters) but instead those abilites that deal more damage take hp from the tanks.
  • My honest opinion is that there probably wont be any complicated gimmicks and that each class will just have to deal with it, in the first place where levels are concerned as long as you have adequate gear you can solo level, healers can heal themselves but deal damage slower, similarly tanks take less damage but deal less aswell.
  • There will be a lot of class customization, and a number of different builds you can make, together in combination with secondary archetypes.

    Some builds will let you heal / tank better, while other will allow you to do more dps, better handle the leveling and solo play.


    What I am mostly concerned about is that not too much DPS is available to tanks and healers WHILE in the same time keeping their heal / tank ability high.

    But I guess that is what balancing is here for.
  • Most simple solution would be to award XP based on more than just mob kills.

    For example (rough simplified numbers and explanation):

    DPS gets XP based on damage done. They solo a mob with 100 HP, they get 100 XP. They do 50 damage to that mob in a group, they get 50 XP for the kill. Being in a group means they kill 4x faster than solo, so they end up getting XP 2x faster overall.

    Tanks get XP based on damage taken. They solo a mob that dealt 100 damage to them, they get 100 XP. In a group, the mob dies more quickly so they only take 50 damage and gain 50 XP. The group kills 4x faster, so they gain XP 2x faster overall.

    Healers get XP based on the amount they healed. They solo a mob that required them to heal themselves for 100 HP, they get 100 XP. In a group they may heal the tank for 50 HP, and get 50 XP after the kill. Group kills faster, so they accumulate XP faster.
  • I can only say it's too simple, if tanks got exp based on dmg taken and healers on amount healed, then using this to power level would be too easy, of course levels also have a part in this, but if a party of let's say 4 healers went to a slightly higher level area and all they did was heal eachother to keep themselves alive..... well you get the point.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    Except they have to actually kill the mob to gain the XP. If they sit there healing each other for 5 minutes and kill 1 mob, they will get the same XP as if they killed 5 mobs in the same 5 minutes.

    In the end all that matters is XP per unit of time, not XP per mob.
  • I've actually never found there was a major problem leveling a healer in most games. it's slower, but slower is ok. You will definitely be able to deal enough damage to kill mobs, just maybe not as quickly. I'm guessing group leveling will also be encouraged in this game.  Remember when that was a thing in MMOs?
  • Even if they have to kill the mob, they can accumulate xp by healing, the only thing that changes is to finish it off, even healers will get a dps ability or so I think. @Aiveleen said it, there aren't many problems leveling a healer or tank, it's just slower than other classes, but they have higher survivability, so they can exp longer without running out of pots etc.
  • zazukeys said:
    We all know support classes will be in high demand although if you are a tank I think you will be fairly self sufficient at soloing if you desire.  
    It depends directly on your survivability to attack potency ratio. Tanks and healers are always hard to balance between the two. Often times a tank class can survive just long enough to barely kill something solo but on the other hand look at WoW and the tanks ROFLstomp anything we come across. 

    Another huge influence is how much a tank will stand out from other classes.. do we get more health? Do we have the same health but mitigate more? Are we able to self heal? 

    If damage is to high then they become a power House in pvp. If damage is to low it doesn't matter that they survived for 6 minutes in that fight against *random unnamed mob* if it comes down to the last few seconds needing a critical hit to win.

    I will inevitably end up being a tank just like I do in every other MMO so fingers crossed either we end up impossible to kill and can't kill anything.. or a fair middle ground is found. 
    We do need a good middle ground and you will help AOC find that during the beta :wink:
  • zazukeys said:
    zazukeys said:
    We all know support classes will be in high demand although if you are a tank I think you will be fairly self sufficient at soloing if you desire.  
    It depends directly on your survivability to attack potency ratio. Tanks and healers are always hard to balance between the two. Often times a tank class can survive just long enough to barely kill something solo but on the other hand look at WoW and the tanks ROFLstomp anything we come across. 

    Another huge influence is how much a tank will stand out from other classes.. do we get more health? Do we have the same health but mitigate more? Are we able to self heal? 

    If damage is to high then they become a power House in pvp. If damage is to low it doesn't matter that they survived for 6 minutes in that fight against *random unnamed mob* if it comes down to the last few seconds needing a critical hit to win.

    I will inevitably end up being a tank just like I do in every other MMO so fingers crossed either we end up impossible to kill and can't kill anything.. or a fair middle ground is found. 
    We do need a good middle ground and you will help AOC find that during the beta :wink:

    Exactly that is what we are here to do, test and provide feedback so a good balance can be found between damage and tanking, as well as healing and damage. No easy task.   
  • Having some sort of temporary conversion skill (until cancelled) like cleric stance in FFXIV would help with the leveling as it swapped your Mind (Healer primary) and Intellect (Mage DPS primary) so you could deal damage to quest and level solo if you wanted to.
  • I don't really see the point, sure the cleric must have some sort of DPS ability but it's a cleric, slow leveling is part of the class in exchange a cleric can survive longer even if alone since they can heal themselves.
  • I expect I will do alot of YELLING! and inviting through the first stretch of adventuring even though I am bringing friends with me into final release 1 a dedicated Warrior and 1 a Xgame healer.
  • A tank or a healer leveling up without a group of friends that need a tank or a healer will probably have a hard time of it - and that is as it should be.
  • Leveling needs to be made around single playing, not everyone wants to join parties so a healer/tank who likes to solo wouldn't even level.

    I'm sure that all classes will have some sort of dps ability to help them level, additionaly if healers could gain exp from healing and tanks from soaking up dmg then again powerleveling would be too easy for them.
    That’s just **** mate. I shouldn’t grab healer and solo the game, and healers “should” get experience from only healing if they wanted to, and tanks “should” get experience from only soaking up damage. 

    While every game you would solo just takes a millennium because there’s always damage abilities and the healer can mostly combine out healing and doing small amounts of damage over a long period of time.

    The tank shouldn’t only be just “soaking” damage
    anyways. There’s lots of mechanics and spells I’m sure they’ll implement to make playing them fun and still do some sorts of damage whether it’s passive reflecting damage, shield bashing, whatever.

    Experience share should literally work the same as it does in Guild Wars II because they literally have the best experience share system of any in any MMO.

    You engage in an activity, if all you do is hit a mob once or heal a player engaged in an event, you’re part of the event because you’re not in combat. 

    If you assist another player fighting anything in the wild, you automatically get 100% experience from the creature, and their own loot.

    Guild wars areas people are literally swarming together regardless of whe they’re in a group or not because of the systems in place, incentive and the constant events going on.
  • If tanks and healers did decent damage then everyone and his mother would be a tank or a healer. Why play a DPS if you can do DPS combined with tankiness / ability to heal?

    And then you would have insane amount of tanks and healers, and you go ahead and try form parties like that later in endgame.
  • I'm not seeing much of a problem, tanks take a lot less damage whilst levelling. Healers can keep themselves healed. Both tanks and healers will have a slower levelling process, most likely. But generally the safest if you don't count things like a pet based class. There's also (For lack of a better term) "Elite" quests (I would hope) An area with quests where mobs are a little too strong to solo, unless you're really skilled, but it'll take long and won't be effective. Tanks and healers tend to have a much easier time getting a group.

    Need I even remind you that once you reach the level cap. Throughout that specific level cap, a tank and a healer both have a much easier life in regards to group content. Based on that alone, it balances out well enough.

    A final point to note is, if things are indeed slow for a tank and for a healer, and a DPS would have downtime after a handful of mobs in a row. You are much more naturally inclined to cooperate with someone. And I simply cannot stress how important that last point is for an MMO. Going through adversity and hardships together is a most excellent way to make friendships.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited March 2018
    Energy consumption.

    DD, Tank, CC or healer matters not. All have to expend energy to achieve an objective. And normally those who waste it end up dead. Those who use a lot of it and dont die will probably be the last ones standing who worked the hardest.

    Its a damn site more useful than how much damage you do at least.
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