I think most of the problems for tanks and healers leveling could be easily solved if the dps are made unable to solo the game. With that I mean being unable to do one wave rushes alone. So if the dps cant handle the monsters damage then they would require to form parties with tanks or heals. But in a lot of games the dps are able to easily kill everything without losing much hp which makes the tank soaking up damage useless since the dps doesnt lose hp while killing and the heal useless because the dps doesnt lose much hp.
I think people are spending way too much time focused on the MMORPG group roles and not enough time focused on the RPG class roles. There should be plenty of quests and tasks with objectives for healers to heal; not just for healers to kill stuff. There should be plenty of quests and tasks with objectives for tanks to safely escort; not just for tanks to kill stuff.
Design quests and tasks that include the interests and objectives expected for each primary archetype. And let people gain experience for completing them. If a Tank wants to try to cleanse a region of disease, great. Probably should be possible, but not as easy as it would be for a Cleric. If a Cleric wants to try to steal the military plans from a rival city, great. Probably should be possible, but not as easy as it would be for a Rogue. If a Fighter wants to try to disenchant a powerful relic in an Archwizard's ruined Tower, great. Probably should be possible, but not as easy as it would be for a Mage.
Seems to me that's what the Social Organizations are for: Religious Temples; Thieves Guilds, Scholars Academies; Traders Companies Leveling your adventurer class should not be all about killing stuff - and shouldn't have to be focused on killing stuff.
I'm really hoping the secondary classes will allow for the extra DPS for basic leveling. Like an "off DPS" if you will.
Yes. To help tanks, healers and supports leveling pain there is two easy options. Secondary class with damage oriented augments and gear which sacrifices defensives and/or healing power to get little bit more damage.
It is not needed to drag other classes to same level with damage dealers what it comes to dps, but little help wont hurt anyone. And what it comes tanks and healers, they usually have advantage over dps classes when forming groups so i guess that will balance the lag of solo leveling.
I dont see there is need to create any specific systems to help with leveling. Everybody can most likely do that by themselfs and i wanted to make a practise example even i told this at post earlier already.
If i have decided to play as a tank and lets say as a paladin (tank/cleric). Now because i have option to change my second class, i will choose to be tank/fighter to get more damage oriented augments. Then if i can change my 1h sword + shield to 2h sword and maybe even plate armor to mail armor boost damage in exchange to defensives. That would be very natural way to get boost to dps and make solo leveling little bit more faster.
But, we can't just change our secondary class from battle to battle or even day-to-day. It's not going to be as simple as respeccing in WoW. And we won't be able to quickly switch to a solo sub-class after we leave a group. Nor quickly switch to a group sub-class simply because we found a group while we were soloing.
Also, we don't know whether dropping a secondary class means we lose all of the abilities and have to re-do the progression if we switch back to it, or whether we retain our skills such that we instantly have all of our previous abilities when we switch back.
You could simply balance solo play around single target skills and AoE around group play. Isnt the whole point of group play to let a specialist carry the burden of that particular style for the group and focus on that.
In other words, you don't necessarily have to sacrifice solo ability on the altar of group ability. Especially as a solo player requires versatility that the other specialists aren't there to provide on their behalf.
Group skill/progression can be determined by AoE cap.
But, we can't just change our secondary class from battle to battle or even day-to-day. It's not going to be as simple as respeccing in WoW. And we won't be able to quickly switch to a solo sub-class after we leave a group. Nor quickly switch to a group sub-class simply because we found a group while we were soloing.
But, we can't just change our secondary class from battle to battle or even day-to-day. It's not going to be as simple as respeccing in WoW. And we won't be able to quickly switch to a solo sub-class after we leave a group. Nor quickly switch to a group sub-class simply because we found a group while we were soloing.
And you know this, because..?
Because they have said at least three times how it will work. That you will be able to change your secondary class, either through a quest chain, npc visit, or other mechanic that makes it so that doing so has meaning and just isn't "on-the-fly."
We could see a system similar to GW 2 where you gain experience from a variety of interactions that you do.There are so many things in the world to do that if exp is apart of all of them youll never feel the need to grind just to level. Just enjoy your game play.
But, we can't just change our secondary class from battle to battle or even day-to-day. It's not going to be as simple as respeccing in WoW. And we won't be able to quickly switch to a solo sub-class after we leave a group. Nor quickly switch to a group sub-class simply because we found a group while we were soloing.
And you know this, because..?
Because they have said at least three times how it will work. That you will be able to change your secondary class, either through a quest chain, npc visit, or other mechanic that makes it so that doing so has meaning and just isn't "on-the-fly."
Change through a quest chain??? How stupid that sounds. If devs will implement secondary class change system, which is too hard accomplish, they will only shoot their own leg. Balancing all class combinations with all different kind of PvE and PvP options will be impossible. If build changing will be way too hard, that will only lock players to be efficient in specific aspects of game. This sounds really bad actually..
I guess NPC visit would be fine if you can keep progress and save some premaid builds. Otherwise the system will be doomed!
All comes down to what aspects of combat stats should be static/temporary/dynamic/transient Archetype and Race are static. Subclass is temporary (perhaps once a day if its an off-class). Gear is dynamic (only changed while out of combat). Skills are transient (toolbar skills activated in combat).
As long as you can create efficient builds to several purposes with changing skills, augments and gear, then there is no problem. But if some sub classes are only good in one aspect (f.e. generally PvP, then it will cause problems when you need to go run PvE dungeons or raids. So in this kind of cases running through sub class quest everytime you want to change activity, then the system will be more annoying than meaningful feature. Ok if the questchain would be one timer, then it is perfect.
I think the first issue is OP suggest some players have difficulty asking people for help, even in games. Being the thread concerns builds that are support of other people by design and intent that is a troubling issue since they are not very useful builds unless you group with others.
With that, every game I have played so far I could level as a DPS or as a stronger dps than pure heals. That has proven very sufficient. Until we get a much better idea of how the "classes" will play I do not think we can have an idea of how we want things to be different than they are.
The idea of role quests sounds interesting. I haven't seen many quests in game before end game that make tanks take play their role or healers heal something. Something interesting if the tank role had to protect something would be that even if other players were attacking it he could taunt the players to attack him. Since tanks can usually only taunt monsters.
In Ashes, Cleric is not just a healer. It's closer to tabletop D&D where Cleric is also a very capable fighter and damage dealer - especially against Undead. Tank should also be a fairly decent damage dealer if the player builds their character for that - choosing abilities and augments and gear that support solo play well.
I think gear and augment choice, in this case will be more about solo v group than pve v pvp. And should not require switching sub-class. Sub-class switch should just be due to your own specific interest in the secondary class; not because it's required to succeed at PvP. But, we will have to see if the devs are actually able to achieve their vision.
My Druid in WoW healed mobs and NPCs way before endgame. But, not often. More quests and tasks associated with that would certainly be nice. And, yeah, also nice if Tanks were sent on quests which made use of Tank abilities. I would love to see a Nightshield stealth into a dungeon and Lasso someone.
Comments
There should be plenty of quests and tasks with objectives for healers to heal; not just for healers to kill stuff.
There should be plenty of quests and tasks with objectives for tanks to safely escort; not just for tanks to kill stuff.
Design quests and tasks that include the interests and objectives expected for each primary archetype. And let people gain experience for completing them.
If a Tank wants to try to cleanse a region of disease, great. Probably should be possible, but not as easy as it would be for a Cleric.
If a Cleric wants to try to steal the military plans from a rival city, great. Probably should be possible, but not as easy as it would be for a Rogue.
If a Fighter wants to try to disenchant a powerful relic in an Archwizard's ruined Tower, great. Probably should be possible, but not as easy as it would be for a Mage.
Seems to me that's what the Social Organizations are for:
Religious Temples; Thieves Guilds, Scholars Academies; Traders Companies
Leveling your adventurer class should not be all about killing stuff - and shouldn't have to be focused on killing stuff.
It is not needed to drag other classes to same level with damage dealers what it comes to dps, but little help wont hurt anyone. And what it comes tanks and healers, they usually have advantage over dps classes when forming groups so i guess that will balance the lag of solo leveling.
If i have decided to play as a tank and lets say as a paladin (tank/cleric). Now because i have option to change my second class, i will choose to be tank/fighter to get more damage oriented augments. Then if i can change my 1h sword + shield to 2h sword and maybe even plate armor to mail armor boost damage in exchange to defensives. That would be very natural way to get boost to dps and make solo leveling little bit more faster.
And we won't be able to quickly switch to a solo sub-class after we leave a group. Nor quickly switch to a group sub-class simply because we found a group while we were soloing.
Also, we don't know whether dropping a secondary class means we lose all of the abilities and have to re-do the progression if we switch back to it, or whether we retain our skills such that we instantly have all of our previous abilities when we switch back.
Isnt the whole point of group play to let a specialist carry the burden of that particular style for the group and focus on that.
In other words, you don't necessarily have to sacrifice solo ability on the altar of group ability. Especially as a solo player requires versatility that the other specialists aren't there to provide on their behalf.
Group skill/progression can be determined by AoE cap.
I guess NPC visit would be fine if you can keep progress and save some premaid builds. Otherwise the system will be doomed!
Archetype and Race are static.
Subclass is temporary (perhaps once a day if its an off-class).
Gear is dynamic (only changed while out of combat).
Skills are transient (toolbar skills activated in combat).
With that, every game I have played so far I could level as a DPS or as a stronger dps than pure heals. That has proven very sufficient. Until we get a much better idea of how the "classes" will play I do not think we can have an idea of how we want things to be different than they are.
Tank should also be a fairly decent damage dealer if the player builds their character for that - choosing abilities and augments and gear that support solo play well.
I think gear and augment choice, in this case will be more about solo v group than pve v pvp.
And should not require switching sub-class. Sub-class switch should just be due to your own specific interest in the secondary class; not because it's required to succeed at PvP.
But, we will have to see if the devs are actually able to achieve their vision.
My Druid in WoW healed mobs and NPCs way before endgame.
But, not often. More quests and tasks associated with that would certainly be nice.
And, yeah, also nice if Tanks were sent on quests which made use of Tank abilities.
I would love to see a Nightshield stealth into a dungeon and Lasso someone.