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3rd party programs and Gold selling

Hey guys, 

I have been playing mmo games for 10 years now. During the time I have never used any 3rd party programs, like bots, auto clickers or anything similar. Also, I have never bought any in-game currency, like gold. I clearly remember that these issues appear in any mmo game sooner or later and that makes me sick of it. I am very curious how @Steven and his team will be dealing with these issues? 

Guys, what are your thoughts on this matter?
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Comments

  • BAN F-ing HAMMER, HARD FAST. NO REFUNDS.
  • iggi said:
    BAN F-ing HAMMER, HARD FAST. NO REFUNDS.
    That's what I would do. For sure.
  • iggi said:
    BAN F-ing HAMMER, HARD FAST. NO REFUNDS.
    This for sure. I've seen games go as far as to block the entire IP address as well, but that would suck in dorms and such. 

    In a game like this, immediately free up any properties they hold too. Foreclosure auction!

    And put the character's head on a pike!
  • Can't wait to hear the thoughts of @Steven on this matter.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    This has been addressed from day one. The coding of the node systems tracks everything. Everything. Exp, kills, trades, money in, money out, resources in, resources out. Other games code, then try to track. They fail. This large batch of data gives them the digital fingerprints to identify and notice suspect behaviour, investigate, and take action. Add that they plan on keeping the API in-house and limiting 3rd party programs. Then throw in at least one identified outside anti-cheat/gold seller vendor that has been working with them to intergrate their proprietary software into the game at its core from the beginning. And finally the human element of active in-game mods, with tools for player reporting of gold spam and bots. And you have as good of a system that you are ever going to get without making it a single player game.
    https://www.panopticonlabs.com/
  • @UnknownSystemError Thanks for your input! It sounds pretty clear for now. The hype is real and it is just keep growing. Can't wait to start playing! 
  • It won't happen don't worry.
  • Fiastos said:
    It won't happen don't worry.
    I think it will happen sooner or later. Pretty much impossible to avoid it. The most important thing is how these issues will be taken care of. Let's hope it will happen strongly and very quickly as soon as it appears. 
  • I hope they put money aside for Steven to drive to everyone of there houses, and kick them in the dick.
  • This has been addressed from day one. The coding of the node systems tracks everything. Everything. Exp, kills, trades, money in, money out, resources in, resources out. Other games code, then try to track. They fail. This large batch of data gives them the digital fingerprints to identify and notice suspect behaviour, investigate, and take action. Add that they plan on keeping the API in-house and limiting 3rd party programs. Then throw in at least one identified outside anti-cheat/gold seller vendor that has been working with them to intergrate their proprietary software into the game at its core from the beginning. And finally the human element of active in-game mods, with tools for player reporting of gold spam and bots. And you have as good of a system that you are ever going to get without making it a single player game.
    https://www.panopticonlabs.com/
    @UnknownSystemError aka AOCpediaMan  :) Thanks for the info you always provide some excellent information. I've picked up a lot of information form many of your replies TY.


  • leave the gold sellers alone, ban the gold buyers accounts.  When no ones buying they will filter out on their own.
  • Why only ban half of the problem?
  • Attack both sides of the problem.  Buyers and sellers both need to be addressed but as long as the system is set up well I don't see a problem. 

    What about banning individual user sale?  Example, in UO people sold their homes for RL cash.  

  • I don't think you can trade freehold titles, but I could be wrong.
    Account selling will be hard to stop.
  • You can only have a single freehold that is account capped. Those that are found to have bought their accounts will most likely lose them. (changes to email registration and credit cards is just one way for them to track, also people will report people who were one person behind the computer, then they find their "friend" has become someone else)
  • You can only have a single freehold that is account capped. Those that are found to have bought their accounts will most likely lose them. (changes to email registration and credit cards is just one way for them to track, also people will report people who were one person behind the computer, then they find their "friend" has become someone else)
    if a change of email is all it takes a large amount of the community would be looked at just for changing from say,(as a example) a gaming email to a business email. i have a irl friend whos shit with character names, i got him to make a proper screen name/email for gaming for his KS-linked account. 

    i dont think email changing is enough to track sellers on.
  • Whatever the measure I really hope they come down hard on these individuals and organisations, nothing ruins a good MMO quicker than bots, glitchers, hackers, gold sellers and spamming.
  • Narys said:
    Whatever the measure I really hope they come down hard on these individuals and organisations, nothing ruins a good MMO quicker than bots, glitchers, hackers, gold sellers and spamming.
    The True Truth.
  • I would say make it legal on the market place. Players who want to buy gold would instead pay game time (in the form of 1-2 month time blocks)  from Intrepid Studios and post it on the market for X gold. This helps almost all parties minus the gold seller from a 3rd party website.

    This assists increasing the player base for new comers that doesn't have the ability to pay for a sub based game and so they can take time to farm up the gold. Another thing to add on is character transfers where people can utilize these forums to post X built character and I want X gold. Seller pays $20 transfer fee to Intrepid and buyer pays in game gold and bam no need to buy another account since you are too damn lazy to level yourself, even though you have all that time to farm that gold.
  • Tomoyuki said:
    I would say make it legal on the market place. Players who want to buy gold would instead pay game time (in the form of 1-2 month time blocks)  from Intrepid Studios and post it on the market for X gold. This helps almost all parties minus the gold seller from a 3rd party website.

    This assists increasing the player base for new comers that doesn't have the ability to pay for a sub based game and so they can take time to farm up the gold. Another thing to add on is character transfers where people can utilize these forums to post X built character and I want X gold. Seller pays $20 transfer fee to Intrepid and buyer pays in game gold and bam no need to buy another account since you are too damn lazy to level yourself, even though you have all that time to farm that gold.
    That is a terrible fking idea it would be like Trion and Apex all over again. Doing that sht will turn the game into a P2W mess
  • That is a terrible fking idea it would be like Trion and Apex all over again. Doing that sht will turn the game into a P2W mess
    Makes zero sense as Trion only guts your access to the market + other features  and other mmo's already accomplished it. Also, would be helpful to clarify in a discussion how it can be p2w. People these days throw that term around 90% of the time they don't even know what they are talking about.
  • Tomoyuki said:
    I would say make it legal on the market place. Players who want to buy gold would instead pay game time (in the form of 1-2 month time blocks)  from Intrepid Studios and post it on the market for X gold. This helps almost all parties minus the gold seller from a 3rd party website.

    This assists increasing the player base for new comers that doesn't have the ability to pay for a sub based game and so they can take time to farm up the gold. Another thing to add on is character transfers where people can utilize these forums to post X built character and I want X gold. Seller pays $20 transfer fee to Intrepid and buyer pays in game gold and bam no need to buy another account since you are too damn lazy to level yourself, even though you have all that time to farm that gold.
    that's gross af
  • Give them the ol' "Bye, Felicia." treatment.
  • Narys said:
    Whatever the measure I really hope they come down hard on these individuals and organisations, nothing ruins a good MMO quicker than bots, glitchers, hackers, gold sellers and spamming.
    My Man @Narys has it, when the bots come I truly hope the Ban hammer goes for the IP and not just the CD key of there copy of the game.
  • Falmin said:
    Narys said:
    Whatever the measure I really hope they come down hard on these individuals and organisations, nothing ruins a good MMO quicker than bots, glitchers, hackers, gold sellers and spamming.
    My Man @Narys has it, when the bots come I truly hope the Ban hammer goes for the IP and not just the CD key of there copy of the game.
    Since the game is free, not really an issue. Active banning of sub accounts does work though. If you keep on top of them they find it is a losing game to pay $15 for an account that will be deactivated and seized constantly. This is why they need to stick to their original stated plan and not have "free weekends" and "trial to level 20" giveaways that cause the problems they do in other mmos.
  • Allowing players to play-to-pay is a horrible idea, imo.

    It generates no income to IS. I don't know why anyone would throw 15$/month into the cash shop if they can't a sub.
    It forces players to mine so they can pay sub cost as opposed to playing game. This reduces fun and allows gold farming, an example would be farming for 1 month to pay for 2 months of free play.
    Allowing players to trade game time for gold or vice-versa seems ridiculous and allows players to play for free effectively reducing sub profits.
    Imo this would be something that prevented Ashes from making a great MMORPG.

    Reducing sub profits intentionally leads to free-play. Free-play leads to pay-to-win or the game dying completely. I know what pay to win means, it's how games can market themselves as "free-to-play" but guarantee profit from players that want full access, better gear, etc. Free-play leads to P2W or a dead game (unless someone just throws millions away so others can enjoy their game).
  • Falmin said:
    Narys said:
    Whatever the measure I really hope they come down hard on these individuals and organisations, nothing ruins a good MMO quicker than bots, glitchers, hackers, gold sellers and spamming.
    My Man @Narys has it, when the bots come I truly hope the Ban hammer goes for the IP and not just the CD key of there copy of the game.
    Since the game is free, not really an issue. Active banning of sub accounts does work though. If you keep on top of them they find it is a losing game to pay $15 for an account that will be deactivated and seized constantly. This is why they need to stick to their original stated plan and not have "free weekends" and "trial to level 20" giveaways that cause the problems they do in other mmos.
    If they had to do it to draw in some more people having it completely random for a short period may be a better way having a consistent period for free trial would be easy to abuse. Not saying they should do this but if they were going to just a random announcement out of the blue and for a short time with no pre announcement.

    I think a better alternative to give it a large push at launch would be give the free trials to the friends of people investing in the game to their friends.

    I think with some of the new packages in the store and as well as old packages already bought to keep it fair I think adding an extra 1 or 2 free trials at launch would be a much better way to do it.

    It would sweeten the deal to get people to purchase packages and and add more value to those that have already been purchased it would also help promote the game which is much safer than just handing out free trials to random people.


  • I was surprised to not see any additional game keys associated with the KS. But if your buddy invested at KS and told you he got you a copy, there would be no reason for you to invest.

    Free sub-trials at launch would be, imo, a horrible idea. We all know server numbers and size are always an issue at launch. Adding a bunch of accounts that only play for a month and then drop because they don't want to pay the sub could really throw a wrench in profit managing.

    I am not a fan, overall, of free trials. I have noticed some of the most harsh reviews of games came from critics that were involved in Alphas, Betas, Early-Access, and free-trials. They decide they don't ever want to pay the games actual cost or sub and feel empowered to discredit the game everywhere they can. Of course, this is not by any means always the case. Often enough investors that feel disappointed are also raging critics.

    What's 15$ to play a (close to if not) AAA game for a month? A lot of indie titles cost close to that and are only worth 10-20 hours of play anyways.

  • Azathoth said:
    Allowing players to play-to-pay is a horrible idea, imo.

    It generates no income to IS. I don't know why anyone would throw 15$/month into the cash shop if they can't a sub.
    It forces players to mine so they can pay sub cost as opposed to playing game. This reduces fun and allows gold farming, an example would be farming for 1 month to pay for 2 months of free play.
    Allowing players to trade game time for gold or vice-versa seems ridiculous and allows players to play for free effectively reducing sub profits.
    Imo this would be something that prevented Ashes from making a great MMORPG.

    Reducing sub profits intentionally leads to free-play. Free-play leads to pay-to-win or the game dying completely. I know what pay to win means, it's how games can market themselves as "free-to-play" but guarantee profit from players that want full access, better gear, etc. Free-play leads to P2W or a dead game (unless someone just throws millions away so others can enjoy their game).
    But this doesn't make sense as you are saying that if players play to pay, it would reduce sub profits, but if they aren't going to play because of the paywall you are all but guaranteeing this title is going to go f2p. I mean take 10 min and seriously think about it. Majority of the sub based games have went optional, Ashes of Creation is making subscription mandatory.

    As for player being forced to mine so they can pay the sub cost, well shit it sucks for them to be unable to afford $5 a month. But if they really want to be apart of the community they will make it happen. I had corp mates in Eve mission run half the month so they can pvp for the rest of the month and the next month. Also, paying $15 for one month means that Intrepid gets a full sub instead of the reduced amount for people doing more then one year or six months.

    I am sorry to break the bubble for you, but most people don't like sub based games hence why there is so few on the market. I had this argument on the Trion forums during alpha as well, but the thing is you can't justify having a system like I am talking about unless you have a way to create scarcity in the economy.

    These methods I am describing has been done quite effectively and creates alternatives. So if a player is stupid enough to use illegal means to acquire funds or toons outside what Intrepid provides, then they can't cry on the forums that their account has -1 mill gold. It also makes it easy to monitor players who launder their in game funds which if you have read CCP's previous posts it is quite enlightening.

    Unlike Eve where botting is still easy because of how controls are this all buy assures that gold farming is  dead as profitability would be zero.
    1. Your 3rd party gold farming customer base uses in house methods that doesn't allow you to profit in real world money other then Intrepid.
    2. You have item weight restrictions so farming all day on top of open world pvp means it takes 3x longer to farm up materials + travel time
    3. You have to under sell in the market while paying for website hosting cost and payment transaction methods.
    4. Intrepid has systems in place that monitors people who bots (as it is quite automated) and bans accounts associated with it so you lose you stock to sell setting you behind.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    Azathoth said:
    I was surprised to not see any additional game keys associated with the KS. But if your buddy invested at KS and told you he got you a copy, there would be no reason for you to invest.

    Free sub-trials at launch would be, imo, a horrible idea. We all know server numbers and size are always an issue at launch. Adding a bunch of accounts that only play for a month and then drop because they don't want to pay the sub could really throw a wrench in profit managing.

    I am not a fan, overall, of free trials. I have noticed some of the most harsh reviews of games came from critics that were involved in Alphas, Betas, Early-Access, and free-trials. They decide they don't ever want to pay the games actual cost or sub and feel empowered to discredit the game everywhere they can. Of course, this is not by any means always the case. Often enough investors that feel disappointed are also raging critics.

    What's 15$ to play a (close to if not) AAA game for a month? A lot of indie titles cost close to that and are only worth 10-20 hours of play anyways.
    I think you are missing the whole concept of marketing a game that adds to the value of packages getting more to invest than normally would early on.

    And you have to read the whole thing and the comments before to really understand what I am saying.

    I was saying that increasing the amount of handout trials to friends would be a better alternative initially to just giving out free handouts to random people.

    Please reread what I wrote and maybe do some research on various forms of marketing used for games depending on the size of the company and the amount of money they have to invest into it.  Games sometimes give out free trials towards the beginning to give the game more exposure without having to spend too much on advertising.

    ****

    Maybe this will be easier to understand.

    A club is having it's grand opening the first night, weekend and week it opens is important. You want it as packed as can be on opening night lot of people go there they have fun word spreads.

    Sometimes clubs use special promotions opening night to draw in a very large crowd like a celebrity handing out free merch discount drinks and no cover.

    ****

    When the game releases haveing a larger amount of people at the begining even if not all of them will continue to sub after the month will give it a better push at the begining and if the game is good the word will spread out that much more.

    So people were discussing if you followed the discussion about free trials and how it can be bad cause it can be abused by gold farmers.

    which is why I suggested increase the number of friends people can invite that have purchased packages and will purchase packages.

    By allowing 1 or 2 more friends it would in crease the value of the current packages enticing more people to invest prelaunch. This would make the people who invested even happier.

    If they were planning on giving out free trials any ways this I think would be a better method bringing potentially better future customers and limit gold farming early on. If they still needed a few more people they could do a limited quantity free trail keys through an mmo website for the remain target population they were going for in the first week of release.


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