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64 Class / Subclass combos = Altoholic Dream or Nightmare?

64 combinations is quite a lot.

Will the Altoholics be in heaven or will the sheer number of choices be overwhelming?

I don't struggle with this particular sin; I'll try a few different class combos then settle in on the one that fits my play style and stick to it.

I could see having so many choices driving some folks over the edge though, lol.
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Comments

  • Well if they are able to pull it off making each class distinct and not boring it is going to be a nightmare. Path of Exile is like this with their limited content, you find a build that looks fun and you go through the same story line leveling the same class, but using different skills as you build your character.

    I think it is going to be a nightmare for a lot of people unsure which class to pick at launch and hopefully someone in the community steps up and makes Youtube videos on how each plays out.
  • Realistically, 64 classes is too many if you expect them to be as unique as typical MMO classes (think WoW) and I think anyone hoping for that level of uniqueness is going to be sorely disappointed. I think a better way of looking at it is to just see your main class as your overall playstyle with the secondary just adding a sprinkling of extra flavor or uniqueness.

    Going back to a WoW example since that's what most people can probably relate to. It's like saying each spec within a class in WoW is its own class. Like a prot pally or ret pally being separate classes. So with the eight original classes and three spec trees each that's 24 'classes'. In fact, I think there will be less actual variation between secondary classes in this game than the difference between specs of the same class in WoW.

    I think because of this, there won't be a huge problem for "altoholics" as the secondary classes will likely not change much. Maybe I'm overly skeptical, but I seriously doubt that for example the necromancer 'class' will feel like a fully fleshed out necromancer class, rather than just a different flavor of summoner. Because of this, I'm also not sure how I feel about each main/secondary combination having its own name as it seems fairly disingenuous.
  • Since you can change your secondary class as many times as you wish, you only need 8 characters (8 different primary classes) to have everything.

    And then during playing each of those characters you can switch secondary classes to have play style that fits your current mood.
  • Technically, there are 8 classes, and you can use any class as a sub-class, for example, a Rogue with mage complements will be a nightspell. Most of the primary rogue classes will be similar and I think you can switch between them(don't remember fully u might want to confirm with someone else)
  • I'll definitely be doing quite a few alts.
  • I like the fact that you could make 8 toons and each toon can switch in game at a designated class trainer like spec talent trees. Having 8 talent trees compared to 3 would be awesome but keep in mind we wanna keep limited moves for each class like each spec has 2 moves that neither of the other specs have and a couple of auras or something to make it different but overall it still plays like the chosen archtype with a twist. Bring on alpha 1
  • It'll be nice to have a variety of ArcheTypes to try as was the case in RIFT. It does sound like it may be a bit of a nightmare to balance though.
  • Pureos said:
    Realistically, 64 classes is too many if you expect them to be as unique as typical MMO classes (think WoW) and I think anyone hoping for that level of uniqueness is going to be sorely disappointed. I think a better way of looking at it is to just see your main class as your overall playstyle with the secondary just adding a sprinkling of extra flavor or uniqueness.

    Going back to a WoW example since that's what most people can probably relate to. It's like saying each spec within a class in WoW is its own class. Like a prot pally or ret pally being separate classes. So with the eight original classes and three spec trees each that's 24 'classes'. In fact, I think there will be less actual variation between secondary classes in this game than the difference between specs of the same class in WoW.

    I think because of this, there won't be a huge problem for "altoholics" as the secondary classes will likely not change much. Maybe I'm overly skeptical, but I seriously doubt that for example the necromancer 'class' will feel like a fully fleshed out necromancer class, rather than just a different flavor of summoner. Because of this, I'm also not sure how I feel about each main/secondary combination having its own name as it seems fairly disingenuous.
    To be fair, even though they share core abilities and have the same class name, every spec plays COMPLETELY differen't from each other.  Different skills, different rotations, different everything, but the core components, it's not just "some sprinkling".  They are each unique and specs are treated as different classes entirely by the community because they are all different and some are better than others.

    Pooka believes that IS does have the ability to make the subclasses share the core components of the main class for it, but still be unique in its own way enough to make them play and make the character approach fights much differently form one another.

    If they just do a sprinkling and make only minor differences between say Rogue/Ranger (Predator) and Rogue/Rogue(Assassin), then that makes the subclasses, apart from doubling the main class, very lackluster and watered down.  For this to work they each need to bring something unique to the table for it to not feel like a jumbled mess of bullshit.
  • 'jumbled mess of bullshit', lol.  Sounds like the plate of ?? I ate at a restaurant last night.....
  • At the moment I don't think it will be to difficult for them to make each class different. Take a summoner for example. If you go the secondary cleric then your previous summons will have healing perks. If you go for the necromancer then your summons might have some DoT damage and maybe take health to summon over magic.             The only hard part I can see here is making all the different effects and summons. Well, maybe not hard but definitely time consuming. 
  • I have faith they put a lot of effort into how they wanted their sub-classes to work and had a solid foundation before they said "we can do 64..."

    I think some builds will play similar but overall feel and look different.
    As USE reminded me in another thread, the secondary class is more of an augment to your already existing abilities/powers/skills from the primary.
  • Crymoar said:
    64 combinations is quite a lot.

    Will the Altoholics be in heaven or will the sheer number of choices be overwhelming?

    I don't struggle with this particular sin; I'll try a few different class combos then settle in on the one that fits my play style and stick to it.

    I could see having so many choices driving some folks over the edge though, lol.
    You just need one character of each main class. those characters can swap their second class at will. easy as pie. shouldnt need anymore alts than usual
  • I think they will be feeling a lot different, having a mage/fighter for instance will feel a lot different to a fighter/mage.
    you'll level the main class first so for instance the mage and using the fireball a lot or what ever the main skill will be and once you get fighter secondary class you'll be able to make that fireball change into swords with extra effects. (not an actual skill but my take on the system)

    Where as if you level the fighter first you'll be swinging that sword around like a mad man, as soon as you get the mage secondary class you'll be able to add fire damage to the sword strike.

    see very different.
    (all things said i hypothetical and of my own mind making things up at 4am in the morning)
  • Crymoar said:
    64 combinations is quite a lot.

    Will the Altoholics be in heaven or will the sheer number of choices be overwhelming?

    I don't struggle with this particular sin; I'll try a few different class combos then settle in on the one that fits my play style and stick to it.

    I could see having so many choices driving some folks over the edge though, lol.
    More likely a balancing challenge!
  • It has been confirmed that we can swap our secondary class, yes. But, Steven did not say how easy it would be to do so. He has always said that he wants our choices to matter, so a large part of me believes that switching your secondary will be a lot more involved that simply going to a class trainer and pressing a button. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    idk how they make all 64 Combinations unique.
    and beside that, how they gonna balance all this.

    one thing that came up in my mind was, how about making ur armor/weapon options based on ur first and second class choice?
    i.e u can only wear plate armor if ur main or secondary class is a tank or fighter, leather armor if u have a ranger, rogue and bard, and cloth armor if u have mage, summoner ir cleric.

    looking back at TESO, im kinda afraid that everyone is using the same type of armor cause of a meta that got created, if everyone can wear everything.

  • I'm already on the verge of a mental breakdown purely because I want to avoid lots of alts and settle on one class till max level before starting another.  

    I cannot for the life of me decide what the starter should be.  I'll experiment during the beta phases and see what I like though.  Hopefully one combo or pure-blood will stand out.
  • @Roxx, no gear lock for class/race/gender.
    Hopefully there are both benefits and drawbacks to most armor and weapons. As a sneak thief heavy plate should reduce sneak chance, as a tank wearing light armor would probably not be as beneficial.

    I do agree, if Ashes players all resort to 1 armor and 1 weapon choice the game will look artificially bland.
  • @Roxx This is the best example of how these mmo's dies so horribly, "how they gonna balance all this". Not sure why people are so fascinated with class balance, as it really just destroys any game that wants to have more then 10 classes. If the classes are going to be unique as they truly claim, then you really don't have to do any balancing other then tweaks. Class balance inevitably leads people complaining that their class is gimped because it isn't able to pvp against other classes.

    If I had to guess a lot of those classes isn't going to be worth doing in pvp and vice versa.
  • Tomoyuki said:


    If I had to guess a lot of those classes isn't going to be worth doing in pvp and vice versa.
    I'd totally be ok with that. A support class shouldn't be able to PvP like that DPS class. They are there for "support" after all.
  • balancing does not only effect pvp, if certain dps class and armor combinations are superior to others, then there is no reason to play a gimped version of it.(same goez for heal and tank)
  • I expect that classes will shine better in certain situations, so that it is valuable to bring x class when this is what we are fighting and y class when that is what we are fighting. It really comes down to Intrepid designing fights/content/mobs etc. to have different mechanics that require different strategies to overcome. If every fight is simply a dps check, tank and spank, or burst heal then the best classes will stay the same in every situation. However, if fights require certain CC, debuffs, buffs, or movement abilities, or there are lots of adds to deal with, resistances to account for, and other things of the like, it will make each fight unique and require more thought for the group on what classes will excel in each of those specific encounters. Intrepid does indeed have their work cut out for them.
  • Crymoar said:
    'jumbled mess of bullshit', lol.  Sounds like the plate of ?? I ate at a restaurant last night.....

    I think they call that the pu-pu platter
  • Every class and class / subclass combination cannot be balanced against all the others for 1 v 1 / 2 v 2 / 3 v 3 combat NOR SHOULD THEY BE.

    In my opinion the goal should be for every class / subclass combination to be viable and make a valuable contribution in GROUP PvP, say 5 v 5 or more.

    By working together as a team is each properly played class/subclass combination able to contribute some significant combination of damage (single target or AOE), and / or healing (single target or AOE) and / or crowd control (single target or AOE)?

    It is entirely appropriate and in fact necessary for good group play dynamics for each class/subclass combination to have both strengths and weaknesses when compared to other combinations so that there is a need for groups to learn to work together to win in PvP combat and to overcome challenging PvE content.
  • Tanare said:
    Crymoar said:
    'jumbled mess of bullshit', lol.  Sounds like the plate of ?? I ate at a restaurant last night.....

    I think they call that the pu-pu platter
    Roadkill delight.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    @Gothix and @Zastro - I agree with both of you.

    There are 8 main classes which is not that so much. All other sub classes are to augment your current spells, which is kinda very cool because You can actually play your style depending on your mood, or...

    ...Or maybe sub classes will have bigger purpose on this?
    Few examples:
    1. You will be able to vary your augmented spells for pvp in certain situations. It will definitely depend on your opponent current class. You might be able to counter it. That means playing as a healer will not necessarily mean that the pvp fight will be one sided to your opponent's favor. 
    2. Maybe it will help you enter specific caves or kill specific monsters/raids faster?
    3. Let's say you want to play pve as a solo player. Maybe with the help of your chosen sub class you will be able to clean monsters faster?
    4. Playing in a party. It may be entirely different approach in recruiting players to your party. It may depend a lot on their current sub class. 

    Well, they did not tell us how you will be able to swap your secondary class, but what I truly expect that it will not be that easy to do in the battlefield. Players should think about their sub class choice before leaving a city or any other safe space. Maybe that is precisely what did @Steven mean?

    Let's wait and see what happens next.




  • @gam3_derp They have already stated that it is going to a intensive process, so swapping it out in a safe area will probably not happen, let alone in the middle of the battlefield. Hopefully people would be kind of locked in their secondary as that would create specialization in people and this would contribute to their idea of an advance economy. 

    It would force people to value both players (pve & pvper) in guilds.
  • Tomoyuki said:
    @gam3_derp They have already stated that it is going to a intensive process, so swapping it out in a safe area will probably not happen, let alone in the middle of the battlefield. Hopefully people would be kind of locked in their secondary as that would create specialization in people and this would contribute to their idea of an advance economy. 

    It would force people to value both players (pve & pvper) in guilds.

    That sounds healthy for the community.
  • For PvP IS is going to have its work cut out for themselves if they are looking to construct the perfect 64 character version of rock-paper-scissors. Just a 25 character version is hard enough to follow (this version still lacks bacon but then bacon beats everything).

    Instead they should look at perfect imbalance and allow the players the freedom to find which builds are the rock, paper, and scissors - There should be builds that are weak to a few (~30%), OP to a few others (~30%), and somewhat balanced to the rest.

    For PvE this would allow for diverse monsters and bosses to be discovered and defeated.
  • Consider that many games have different "specs" (usually 3) for each class. Each of those specs plays completely different from the others. I see this as something similar to that.
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