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AoC is p2w

Let me try to show u guys how.
I have discussed this with several discord servers and most have agreed in the end. That being enough reasons to come here and clarify why.
What does p2w mean to you? Buying advantage over others? Or negating equal opportunities to other players?
If I want to p2w as most of you know it, I will win TIME. But the players behind me will still be able to catch up on me if I quit or take a break or slack. P2w as most of you know it means buying temporary power.
What I see in p2w is BUYING things you can NOT get ingame by any means. That is pay to win to me.
A 500 euros pack to "win" skins. That you cannot get ingame. not by grinding 300 hours because it clearly says "items in this blabla cannot be received anymore from anywhere"
So you NEED TO PAY, in order to have these items. You need to PAY, to win these. You won't pay to win time over ohters. You pay to win stuff over others that do NOT pay for it.
That, is p2w to me. You make it impossible for players to have equal opportunities to have the same items, not by effort shown ingame, but effort shown from the wallet. 
Buying items to make you temporarily stronger over others, that is pay to boost.
Buying items that makes you have stuff that others won't be able to have if they don't do the same action (pay), that is pay to win.
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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    Honestly... If you bought the early packages, you showed that you wanted to invest in a project that was never certain would go anywhere. The individuals buying those packs (myself) included took a "risk" in sense and got "rewarded" with those skins that will never be available again (stated). Is this unfair?

    We should all be thankful they did not include any actual P2W items, you know, boosts or actual gear/mounts, that would be P2W to me. And I do not for a second believe that gaining visuals paying with real money is P2W, but that's my opinion, clearly some people think it is.
    We should be damn thankful that there is a project, at last, that is actually willing to go out and publically state that they will never introduce P2W, meaning actual in-game advantages to the gameplay. All they will have in their shop are cosmetics.

    They have stated that cosmetic items will be available in game as well as the shop, this is nothing like the bullsh*t BDO has.

    So OK. If people believe to think that it is in any way "unfair"/"P2W" to be able to buy cosmetics that will not be available in game with real money, then I really don't know what to say...
  • What exactly are you specifically winning as such? By having a certain look you aren't exactly winning anything unless this is some kind of fashion contest. By comparison with other titles in industry, AoC is miles away in terms of monetisation practices that actually impact gameplay.
  • Buying a costume, weapon skin, mount skin, or any other cosmetic is not pay to win it's pay to look FABULOUS XD... but no seriously, your concept of p2w is not the same as Steven's concept, which I believe is somewhere along the lines of buying actual weapons or exp boosts or something like that (an experienced MMO gamer can give a more detailed example). I personally feel your overgeneralizing the MMO version of P2W but then again everyone has their own perspective on things. I highly suggest you express your concerns on the Microtransactions thread as there are people who would definitely support your viewpoint and, hopefully, you can have a civil discussion with the people who would argue how cosmetic purchasing is not pay 2 win in that thread.
  • "P2W" - You keep using that word. I do not think It means what you think it means.
  • He did clarify that it is his view on p2w. He didn't claim it's the universal understanding of the term.
    Given that kickstarters have rules and such, it can't be helped when something is, in the end a limited time offer, and in your understanding p2w.
    Warframe did it best in my opinion. <shrug>
    Anyway imo the only p2w aspect currently see able is the 2 days headstart and I really don't care about the arguments "nodes will be disabled" and " there are headstart servers" they are ignoring all the aspects of a 2days headstart.
    2 days game time advantage to progress puts you far ahead to do whatever you want and set up early after those 2 days especially if you belong to an established community with quite a few members with that advantage.
    I don't mind, in the end it's the same with blobb culture, it's there, it's a threat, but you can play around and against it. It is, in the end p2w tho.
  • I'm pretty sure those are not items but SKINS which change appearance of things, whats more people backed the project with quite a sum of money so they deserve to get something out of it, if you consider someone with a flaming sword which is purely visual being p2w then well...

    Of course everyone has their own opinion on what p2w means to them but it is generally accepted that p2w is when you can buy something in the game that gives you advantage over the others not appearance but actual items that might make you have a head start over the other players (think warframe where someone spends a lot on platinium).
  • OP is confusing Pay to Win with Pay to Dress.
  • Tldr; 
    Clickbait over semantics and wording. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    First of all, I had a really hard time reading what you wrote. It meandered around and was probably a paragraph too long for what actual content it held. But I think I understand your point and that it's "cosmetic items are P2W because you buy them."

    This reminds me of the time I helped my friend Devan with his intermural basketball team in college. They were named "The Razorbacks" after the very aggressive wild boar that populated the area where he grew up in the southern US. He needed someone not on the team to act as a sort of manager and back up player. I also played guard. I was decent, but probably the worst player on the team and I was usually on the bench calling plays or texting.

    I had some free time, so we all gathered in what was called "The Walk" (short for Walker Hall) which contained a coffee/sandwich shop and a lively lounge. And free WiFi. The issue we needed to discuss was equipment, notably uniforms. Now I really favor retro designs, and had a few ideas. Red and Black with a snarling boar's Head on the front. They were a hit, so we went online and ordered custom jerseys.

    However, the problem of paying for them came up. They cost $19.99 each! We were all starving college students. In fact I used to eat alot of Ramen and bread sandwiches back then. Some body suggested we buy them ourselves, each paying for their own. 

    But a guy from another team walked by and over heard us. He got quite upset. He claimed we now had an unfair advantage because we were paying for the uniforms rather than borrowing the more generic ones from the school. Instead we wanted to stand out. He promised to go on other college's message boards (yes this was some time ago) and tell everyone we were paying to win. His name was Stu Pore. It was obvious he was jealous of our sweet uniforms and the skills they would instill in us.

    That season, with our paid-for uniforms, we went 12 and 0, winning the championship. It had nothing to do with the fact 3 of our players had been all state players in highschool, or that we practiced instead of just shooting around 4 days a week.

    No, it was our uniforms. That we paid for. Because we wanted to look cool. We won the intramural basketball championship simply because we converted $19.99+shipping into red and black jersey no one else had. 

    Basketball is P2W.
  • @Dragagon In a perfect world games wouldn't need a shop at all to be able to stay alive. Would I prefer it if the subscription was enough? yes. I'm one of those people that hates in-game purchases. But we don't live in a perfect world and while it's true that there is going to be some cosmetics locked behind a paywall there will be a huge chunk that are also found in game. This wont be like BDO where there is no cool cosmetics in game and you have to purchase them to look like anything but  a Hobo.

    Some times one needs to learn to take the good with the bad and in this case, so far for what I've seen the good hugely outweighs the bad which is more than I can say for any other MMORPG out there and makes me hopeful for the future.

    Also those cosmetics do nothing to enhance your game experience. you could argue that for Fashion competitions, or maybe for role playing purposes but saying that the guy next to you won the battle, or got to a zone before you, or discovered something before you because his shoes were "blue" while yours were "red" is silly.
  • This isnt a fashion contest game.
  • Wait, are you from Arkansas @Karthos ?

    Top 3 epic scenes ever:
    https://youtu.be/RprRRcbc_lw
  • The OP's original post is like a car crash.

    I want to say something, but I'm speechless, yet I can't look away.   
  • Well, at least he is starting off with a bang. His first and only post after joining is a rousing success by using the dreaded p2w trigger. The syntax is definitely Google translate and his choice of stating that there is a pack for 500 euros is another clue. My guess is Albanian or other eastern bloc that are mad they won't be able to RMT for a quick payday.
  • tugowar said:
    Wait, are you from Arkansas @Karthos ?

    Top 3 epic scenes ever:
    https://youtu.be/RprRRcbc_lw
    Nope, I'm not, but my friend Devan was!
  • I just can't agree with it that this isn't pay to win. You litterally pay to win more than people that don't pay.
    Not that I cannot afford it, neither am I from the east. .UnknownSystemError said:
    My guess is Albanian or other eastern bloc that are mad they won't be able to RMT for a quick payday.
    I just feel that this is wrong. It's worse than what most of you understand of p2w. The p2w you guys are familiar with really is just a boost in time but u can catch that up with your hard grinded time. This is litterally something you cannot do without money. I don't see how you guys don't get it. It's not about advantage but equality of opportunities to me, and that's where this does not respect that.
    Apologies for my "horrible" english as some claim it, neither am I native english.
  • Dragagon said:
    I just can't agree with it that this isn't pay to win. You litterally pay to win more than people that don't pay.
    Not that I cannot afford it, neither am I from the east. .UnknownSystemError said:
    My guess is Albanian or other eastern bloc that are mad they won't be able to RMT for a quick payday.
    I just feel that this is wrong. It's worse than what most of you understand of p2w. The p2w you guys are familiar with really is just a boost in time but u can catch that up with your hard grinded time. This is litterally something you cannot do without money. I don't see how you guys don't get it. It's not about advantage but equality of opportunities to me, and that's where this does not respect that.
    Apologies for my "horrible" english as some claim it, neither am I native english.
    It's fair enough if that's your personal opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, the best thing to do is vote with your wallet and not support the game in any way, shape or form. I personally feel the complete opposite and will certainly take a lot of convincing to think otherwise.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    Dragagon said:
    I just can't agree with it that this isn't pay to win. You litterally pay to win more than people that don't pay.
    Not that I cannot afford it, neither am I from the east. .UnknownSystemError said:
    My guess is Albanian or other eastern bloc that are mad they won't be able to RMT for a quick payday.
    I just feel that this is wrong. It's worse than what most of you understand of p2w. The p2w you guys are familiar with really is just a boost in time but u can catch that up with your hard grinded time. This is litterally something you cannot do without money. I don't see how you guys don't get it. It's not about advantage but equality of opportunities to me, and that's where this does not respect that.
    Apologies for my "horrible" english as some claim it, neither am I native english.

    You know the alternative to buying something others don't have is either stealing or getting it free right? 

    I'm going to make the educated guess you are super butt hurt that you didn't get into the Kickstarter and because of this, you are salty over the fact you now don't have something other people do.

    Welcome to the real world.

    You excuse buying things in games that save time and are available to everyone, yet you think a cosmetic item that is exclusive is evil P2W?

    Using your same logic means it's ok speed dangerously down the highway as long as you let everyone but it's not ok to let them drive a special car were only 100 we're made while doing it.

    You fail to grasp the point that shatters your argument, and that's that there's literally no in game play advantage to a cosmetic item. Unless you think looking like a pirate makes you better at PvP or something. (Ok this might be true)

    You're salty you don't either have the means or the timing to get something and you're ego won't handle it so you're lashing out. 

    People were given rewards for backing the game. This game you could play because they helped fund it. You should be thanking them like the company has by showering them in gifts. Your logic is bad and you should feel bad.



  • P2W involves paying for an advantage. Dressing "better" or more "unique" than the next person is only P2W in highschool

    So Discord gets to redefine words/phrases and then complain something fits into the category they specifically designed to make that thing sound bad?

    Let me know when the official Discordinary is out so I can get caught up.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    For me p2w only works in pvp
  • P2w is being able to pay to get ahead of other people in either PvP or pve "raid content" not fashion... Even though I would love some of the stuff from kick starter bundles and I no longer am able to get any of it well sucks but I can live with that.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    Eh looking good in game vs not looking like say a ghost once a year is not ptw it would be they offered say 3 day head start sense they are not its not ptw to own a dress no else does. looks cool and all but really most people will get bored of said dress  also what happens if all the stuff takes space in the inventory then well it better not to own a ton.......
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    Actually they do have headstart servers planned. 48 hours with no node development. 24 hours for those with lower packages. Also guild and name reservation.
    BoW got you: Access to Live launch head-start - 2 days early! 
    Founder got you: 
    Access to Live launch head-start - 1 day early!


  • Another quote ninja above. Thanks for the info @UnknownSystemError
  • Do you need safe space?
  • AoC is not even out yet... so in case of those people who have alpha access it might be pay to play. Anything beyond that is pointless discussion for a game which will only come out 2019. 
  • in theory we paid to support the Game and they gave us something in return, so its not p2w ;)

    and u dont beat anyone ingame in pve/pvp with those outfits alone, so its not p2w in my definition anyways.
  • I don't know, if I look fly af I might be able to put the beat down just because of that. More seriously, someone with the Angle/Demon skin could look intimidating to someone unaware that they are just skins, and thus have an advantage if others run away.

    But if people are scared of things they don't know about, or are ashamed to show their avatars dress-code to other avatars, that doesn't make the game p2w. It means the players are uniformed or self-conscious of pixels.
  • I get your point TE - but I cannot agree with that. 

    I compare AoC with my last main game. Let me give you a short review of the f2p game with  its item shop:

    - Buy so called "charms" which boost your dmg and deff by 20%/30%/50%. Yes, you can combine them. Even the 50% charm with another 50% charm from another pack to get 100% more dmg
    - Costumes & Accessoirs with Dmg/Deff/Aim/Evasion/Crit
    - Weapon skins from a lucky box (lootbox) with Dmg/Crit/Aim
    - Pets  which boosts your stats directly 

    The list goes on. Naturally there's content which requieres  some of the mentioned items to clear it in a reasonable time (or clear it at all). Further more the raid system is based on most dmg, means you need to buy all of it to push your dmg to compete with the others in order to get the drop from the world boss.

    This is what I call p2w. A skin without any bonus is something I can accept and an item shop with only cosmetic stuff would make me very happy.
  • Our views on pay to win are different, I see pay to win as giving an in-game advantage in combat/mechanics to players who have given money to those that haven't.  Cosmetics provide no advantage in-game over players who do not have them, they are not given any statistical edge in any facet of the game. 
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