Will gifting items from the cash shop be permitted

ArchivedUser

As the title says. Will we be allowed to purchase something and gift it to another player in game.

ArchivedUser

No - cosmetics from the store are bound to your account and cannot be traded in any way with other players.

ArchivedUser

While a lot of people will no doubt be upset by this, since we all like to give gifts to people on holidays, birthdays, as thank yous, etc, this is a method to prevent P2W.

People love cosmetics and would certainly want to buy them for in game currency if the option was available.  

ArchivedUser

ArchivedUser

Jahlon said:

While a lot of people will no doubt be upset by this, since we all like to give gifts to people on holidays, birthdays, as thank yous, etc, this is a method to prevent P2W.

I fail to see how a cosmetic item can be misconstrued as P2W. The item will not have any stats on it. So please enlighten me how this is P2W.

In other games I had gifted items with cash and in game gold and no one had issues with these items.  

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

The person asked if they will be tradable. Hence something for exchange and you get something back. Gifting is different as you give it to someone but dont expect something in return.

So I still fail to see how gifting is P2W.

ArchivedUser

NightshadeRaven said:

UnknownSystemError said:

The person asked if they will be tradable. Hence something for exchange and you get something back. Gifting is different as you give it to someone but dont expect something in return.

So I still fail to see how gifting is P2W.

You are paying for items with real life money that would undoubtedly have some in-game value if it were transferable or tradable in any way with other users.

Effectively it would be like buying in-game gold with an extra step.

ArchivedUser

Rosco said:

You are paying for items with real life money that would undoubtedly have some in-game value if it were transferable or tradable in any way with other users.

Effectively it would be like buying in-game gold with an extra step.

You all have still failed to tell me how this is P2W.
I never said tradable, I said gifted. They are two different things.

So being gifted I would say you can only gift up to two items. Surely this cannot be interpreted as P2W.
I never said trading in cash shop items thats just RMT. This post is not about RMT.

So do you finally understand what is being said.
 

ArchivedUser

NightshadeRaven said:

Rosco said:

You are paying for items with real life money that would undoubtedly have some in-game value if it were transferable or tradable in any way with other users.

Effectively it would be like buying in-game gold with an extra step.

You all have still failed to tell me how this is P2W.
I never said tradable, I said gifted. They are two different things.

So being gifted I would say you can only gift up to two items. Surely this cannot be interpreted as P2W.
I never said trading in cash shop items thats just RMT. This post is not about RMT.

So do you finally understand what is being said.
 

Don't be so patronising, I understand perfectly and that is precisely why I know why it could never happen.

Anything that can be gifted could also be traded, that's simply the reality of the situation.

All that would happen is players would 'gift' cosmetics to other players and would be 'gifted' back items or in-game currency in return, effectively allowing them to spend real-life money to make gains within the game.

If you were allowed to 'gift' cosmetics to other players then Intrepid would themselves be facilitating a system that enables RWT/RMT and consequentially players would be able to make in-game monetary gain by spending real-life money which is something they want to avoid.

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about this, no matter how Intrepid implemented a gifting system it would be ripe for abuse ('gifting' cosmetics in exchange for other in-game goods).

ArchivedUser

"Hey, @NightshadeRaven, pm me in game. I really want that new pirate hat, but don't have the cash for it. I will give you 10,000 gold in game once you "gift" it to me from your account." So for $5 you save yourself days of grinding or running dungeons."

This has been a common money making scheme by disreputable sites for years. If you ever played WOW, at some point you got a spam email from someone telling you that if you go to their site and pay, they would "gift" you ....


Just because you might have honorable intentions, the rest of the internet does not. Intrepid has seen this play out, and this removes that temptation. You may not like it, but then again, everything in the shop is cosmetic. If you really, really want your Aunt Martha to have that Christmas hat, mail her the $5 and she can buy it on her own account.

ArchivedUser

Rosco said:

Don't be so patronising, I understand perfectly and that is precisely why I know why it could never happen.

Anything that can be gifted could also be traded, that's simply the reality of the situation.

All that would happen is players would 'gift' cosmetics to other players and would be 'gifted' back items or in-game currency in return, effectively allowing them to spend real-life money to make gains within the game.

If you were allowed to 'gift' cosmetics to other players then Intrepid would themselves be facilitating a system that enables RWT/RMT and consequentially players would be able to make in-game monetary gain by spending real-life money which is something they want to avoid.

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about this, no matter how Intrepid implemented a gifting system it would be ripe for abuse ('gifting' cosmetics in exchange for other in-game goods).

I am not being patronizing, I am just having a discussion to see if a gifting system can be put in for the benefit of players without the ugly RMT. All it would require is some check, balances and some security to check the paper trail.
In most cases these will be simple transactions, but flags will be raised on possible RMT where say 50 of one item is being purchased on a limited time.

A easy fix would be you purchase an item it becomes soulbound to you. You gift it it becomes soulbound to the person you gifted it too.. So this would be a simple solution. Also the item will be gifted from the store to the person and not to you and then the person.

ArchivedUser

Why yes! Yes, I did say [Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker]! 
It will never die. XD

But on a more serious note to anybody. I'm super late on the AoC train so I'm sorry if I missed this, but are these cosmetics such as costumes/mounts/pets BoA?  Are they untradeable and unstackable?

I'm also a bit thick in the noggin too so I sometimes read explanations, then write my own example to confirm I understood correctly. (Sorry!)
So if say, there was a "gift" system in the cash shop where someone could buy let's say a costume dress that's limited to one purchase per account, and they gifted the purchase to a friend through checkout. Is the exploit possibility coming from someone doing an in game gold/item transaction to the gifter just to get the cosmetic for personal use?

Also, since the company may not offer this gift option, couldn't people just skirt around this using 3rd party money transfers? Or does the use of an outside money transfer usually deter people? O.o

On a different note, I wonder if having multiple currencies with varying exchange rates across nodes would help deter gold farmers from more easily gathering enough to entice this kind of behavior. :< Though would players find that too annoying to deal with? 

ArchivedUser

@Talynnda Not really an issue. IS has said that everything from KS rewards on down are BoA. This removes the incentive for people to say buy a cosmetic, sell it for in game gold, then sell said gold for a profit. It removes a way that gold sellers have of trying to extract real cash from the system. It removes customer service tickets filed by people complaining how they were scammed. It cuts down on credit card fraud. (Yes, some people are actually stupid enough to give a cc# to a dodgy site.) It cuts down on customer service response time by not having to deal with "I gifted the hat to Aunt June, but she never got it!" tickets, when Aunt June doesn't know how to open an in game mail or click the right icon to claim it. And it removes the man hours putting another layer in the cosmetic store. Simple answer. They lose by adding it, but gain by not having it.
Could they change their mind? Sure. Steven could eventually decide that this whole mmorpg thing was a waste of time and they are coming out with a tabletop version with actual dice and stuff. The chance of that happening though is negligible. So just like the guy who wanted the KS packs to be able to be put on layaway and fought kicking and screaming for it last summer, they might have a version. Just not the one envisioned currently. (Currently KS/Summer holders can upgrade their packages, current store packages can be upgraded, in effect, a kind of layaway.)

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

@Talynnda It removes customer service tickets filed by people complaining how they were scammed. It cuts down on credit card fraud. (Yes, some people are actually stupid enough to give a cc# to a dodgy site.) It cuts down on customer service response time by not having to deal with "I gifted the hat to Aunt June, but she never got it!" tickets, when Aunt June doesn't know how to open an in game mail or click the right icon to claim it. And it removes the man hours putting another layer in the cosmetic store. Simple answer. They lose by adding it, but gain by not having it.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense! I'd rather have them answering in-game tickets than dealing with those tire-fires. XD I'm not really bummed either way. But based on what you said, the benefits don't really look to outweigh the drawbacks.

And thank you for taking time to go into such a detailed explanation.

ArchivedUser

As a content creator i was hoping to do some giveaways for viewers, but i also get why this system is in place.

ArchivedUser

If your like me and buy costmetics for your sister. Yes you can def gift cash shop items. Just give them your credit card

ArchivedUser

NoeSparks said:

If your like me and buy costmetics for your sister. Yes you can def gift cash shop items. Just give them your credit card

This essentially  

ArchivedUser

Most of you have the right idea and I love that

BlueBird is a good one here in the U.S. you fill it up at walmart and there is no load fee, great for online purchases, easy online management, but it IS an AMEX card which some places such as newegg do not accept it which was pretty sad to find out (but saved me $900 on my new PC ).

ArchivedUser

Its good that you cant gift..... Everytime i gift something to anyone in life theres always strings attached.. Small as just continue to be a good friend, to as far as "now you owe me" manipulation

ArchivedUser

Me too, even when I have a desire to do something simply for kindness (and then do it) I often find myself thinking things like "...I did that for them and they never did anything for me..."

At some point, even the most noble intentions can be tainted.
What's that saying about the road to hell? ...something about good intentions...

ArchivedUser

Gifting could easily be exploited and turned into cosmetic trading via PayPal and other third-parties. That being said, I do like the idea of gifting.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

Me too, even when I have a desire to do something simply for kindness (and then do it) I often find myself thinking things like "...I did that for them and they never did anything for me..."

At some point, even the most noble intentions can be tainted.
What's that saying about the road to hell? ...something about good intentions...

I especially like the one off act of kindness and generosity that somehow became a repeated reoccurring on demand contract.
/sighs ....some people you just have to marvel at.
At some point gratitude was replaced with rights.

ArchivedUser

I would like to see the ability to gift between accounts. Put limits on it like 1 item per week or XXXX $ maximum per month  only to avoid abuse from people trying to exploit. but if a friend has a birthday or Christmas id like the ability to gift them a mount or maybe even sub time on me. 

ArchivedUser

If you wish to gift something to someone go grind gold then gift him gold, or piece of gear you crafted, or if you are lazy and MUST gift $$ than you can just send cash to his pay pal and you're good.

As long as you can buy stuff with RL money and gift it, you can abuse this to get gold for this. The only downside for you is the risk that if after you gift an item, the other party screws you and doesn't "gift" you the gold after.

But on large scale, most of "gifting" would be successfully traded for gold, and since gear is player crafted unbound and will be bought for gold this means RL cash -> gifting ->get gold -> get gear ---- so in short RL cash = gear, and this is the most severe P2W you can get.


So please, I know some of you are lazy to grind and want to exploit this to exchange $$ for gold, but just give up, it will (hopefully) never happen.

ArchivedUser

Gothix said:

But on large scale, most of "gifting" would be successfully traded for gold, and since gear is player crafted unbound and will be bought for gold this means RL cash -> gifting ->get gold -> get gear ---- so in short RL cash = gear, and this is the most severe P2W you can get.

I will say it again if the items from the cash shop are soulbound on receipt you cannot sell it or pass it on.
Even if you gift it to someone the items will be soulbound.

Let me repeat that word again. SOULBOUND. 

ArchivedUser

NightshadeRaven said:

Gothix said:

But on large scale, most of "gifting" would be successfully traded for gold, and since gear is player crafted unbound and will be bought for gold this means RL cash -> gifting ->get gold -> get gear ---- so in short RL cash = gear, and this is the most severe P2W you can get.

I will say it again if the items from the cash shop are soulbound on receipt you cannot sell it or pass it on.
Even if you gift it to someone the items will be soulbound.

Let me repeat that word again. SOULBOUND. 

I think what is trying to be said is this: 
Player A has a lot of in-game gold, but very little money irl. He finds player B who does have a lot of real life money and asks him to gift him stuff from the store and in exhange he will give Player B in game gold. 
In this senario it would not matter if the store item is BOA because they are still exchanging gold for something that is worth real money. And player B is essentially paying money for gold.

ArchivedUser

Gothix said:

I think Nightshade understands, but he is THAT lazy player with lots of IRL cash so that's why he is trying to push this.

Well here is where you are wrong. I am not a lazy player and I dont throw cash at a game for virtual items. I feel strongly to reward someone in the game or visa versa, people should be able to gift items from the store.  I gave a sound way that it cant be exploited. Also dont call me lazy you dont know me and I couldn't care less about you. Dont make assumptions about people you dont know.

ArchivedUser

Ok, I give up... there is no point. I should have known better.

ArchivedUser

If I can 'gift' you an item that I paid for IRL, and in return expect you to 'gift' me in-game-gold (and you do) I literally traded IRL Money for your Virtual Gold.

I traded real life money for in game currency.
Now, I can use that in game currency to buy the gear to make me better that I didn't want to spend time collecting gold for.
That appears to be P2W.

If gifts could only be cash shop items, then maybe we're set.
I can gift you the newest skin, but the only thing I could expect 'gifted' back was another cash shop item there might not be as many issues. As long as cash shop doesn't go P2W, and I don't think it will.

Once a player is given the opportunity to 'gift' gold the game can take on a P2W aspect.

ArchivedUser

Just a general note

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ArchivedUser

No ptw options or exploits means no ptw options or exploits. The insidious rot it creates in a MMOG from currency farmers to achievment buyers is not worth it.