its not p2w all the people posting are not using there brain i buy item Ashes sends them the item through the mailbox i receive nothing from said player like gifting a game on steam
its not p2w all the people posting are not using there brain i buy item Ashes sends them the item through the mailbox i receive nothing from said player like gifting a game on steam
Exploit is (by definition) when people do not use intended mechanics but go around it and abuse it for other purpose, which is what we have been writing about. Not the intended way, but the abuse of it. Abuse that makes P2W possible. (You receive nothing through the default trade, player gives you gold after the gifting is complete in a separate trade).
Not following that line of logic. Some of us concerned about P2W are suggesting that gifting gold allows P2W. Most items will be crafted by players and sold by players to players. As of now, players will be able to make close to, if not, top-tier gear.
If you can gift gold, in exchange for something someone else used RL monies for, there is potential for P2W. It's not guaranteed, but the potential exist.
Spend real money on skin for friend, 'gift' skin to friend, friend 'gifts' gold back. Real money = gold. That's what some of us are trying to advocate against.
If you are adventuring for gear/resources and sell them to players for gold that's the in game economy working. Minus a sub fee no RL money is used in that type of transaction.
I hope this is not implemented. Unless giving out gold in exchange for nothing is limited to like 1 gold coin per day or something along those lines. And even that would not stop exploiters from creating armies of characters to give gold.
In that quote he says "tradeable" and If I am interpreting it right that would mean in-game. I think Solaris was talking about buying and gifting it to another account outside of the game.
it makes no difference, people will just ask for gold in the game, then go on the website and "gift" it to someone. Making them untradeable at the same time makes them ungiftable.
as far as trading cosmetics being p2w, that's just silly. if the only thing you can gift is cosmetics... then no-one can exchange in game currency. People could however sell their items for real cash as a "gift"... but that's not p2w. A reasonable idea would be allowing gifting FROM THE SHOP. like steam. when you guy it it will ask "is this a gift". this way you can gift it to a friend, before it is bound. the problem with that is, you could only ever gift current items for sale. nothing historical or rare. just throwing that out there.
Also, gifting cash shop items would be fun for in game contests. Lets say I am a blacksmith and need tons of ore, I can hold a contest, whoever brings me the most ore in a week gets this sweet cloak... of course I could just do it with some fancy item I created aswell, so I guess its not that big of a deal.
but while I am on the subject of p2w... lets say I am a blacksmith and decide to sell my crap wares for 100,000 in game currency, then I pay some nefarious company 10$ to buy my crap sword at that cost... due to the game having so much to do what player made items, how will we avoid this type of situation?
The only way I see is if an item has a specific cost (based on a market) and I cannot sell it for more than that. BUT that isn't realistic or fair to the creators of quality items. If I build a name for myself selling great gear, I should be allowed to charge a premium for specific requests.
It seems very difficult to please both worlds, open market and no p2w.
I know this has been mentioned already on this topic but maybe it needs to be said again. Their plan is that Ashes will have no soulbound items and if they do implement a soulbound item it will be the exception to the rule rather than the rule. Meaning that you will find top-tier, epic, BiS gear maybe even legendary items for sale in exchange for in-game gold. If they give the people a way to make in-game gold by using real life money they are enabling them to get very powerful by spending real cash. that's why it is pay to win to be able to exchange cash shop items at all. While I realize some people will actually give it as gifts expecting nothing in return the reality is most people will use it to get as much of an advantage as they can. So Intrepid should not implement any tools that enable P2W scenarios for the games sake.
Also this scenario you brought up:
LocksmithArmy said: Also, gifting cash shop items would be fun for in game contests. Lets say I am a blacksmith and need tons of ore, I can hold a contest, whoever brings me the most ore in a week gets this sweet cloak... of course I could just do it with some fancy item I created aswell, so I guess its not that big of a deal.
This is literally exchanging real-life cash for in-game items that you can later sell for gold which you can exchange for Best gear. That is totally P2W. Also Now imagine it's not you the one doing the transaction but someone else and instead of ore he exchanges the epic loot he got from a boss in exchange for that cash shop item he can't afford. That is also P2W. Again I cannot stress this enough, even though this might not be what you personally would use it for, there is a ton of people that would, and that's the point. Not enabling that people.
LocksmithArmy said: but while I am on the subject of p2w... lets say I am a blacksmith and decide to sell my crap wares for 100,000 in game currency, then I pay some nefarious company 10$ to buy my crap sword at that cost... due to the game having so much to do what player made items, how will we avoid this type of situation?
correct, that is also P2W but I don't see how giving people one more tool to do P2W. Which gifting would be. Could help with this issue but instead make it worse.
I'm stretching it a bit here, but I'm reminded of the difference between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3. Diablo 2 was awesome. Diablo 3 is garbage. Why is Diablo 3 garbage? Because you just wander around alone, pick shit up, and you cant trade anything, so you just disenchant it and do nothing with those materials. If everything in this game is BoA, wtf are we going to trade? Everyone will have a crafter alt making the stuff their main needs. So if craftable equipment is all thats tradeable, what kind of market will there be?
Shut me down, please....I hope I'm wrong. Make me understand how not being able to trade anything other than craftables is going to make for a fun and healthy economy.
(Side note, I really have no clue what's actually tradeable, or will be. Maybe more than just craftables are/will be, but I hope it's enough to make the market fun. If it's not fun, whats the point?)
This whole conversation just baffles me. EQ2 and FFXIV had a gifting system, and I've shelled out literally thousands of dollars over the years buying cosmetic items for friends and family for birthdays and holidays. I would have never even considered it to be an exploit mechanic, because every aspect of it would be so easy to track right down to your very banking institution.
Frankly, it seems that if you can't have nice things like a gifting system, then it's a symptom of a larger problem of not effectively dealing with RMT offenders. In any case, if no gifting system exists, I know they are cutting themselves off from the majority of potential profit they can get from me personally.
In Final Fantasy 14 it was easy to avoid because the high tier gear is soulbound so there is no risk of someone exchanging them either directly for gifted items or buying them with gil gotten through the gifting system.
As for EQ 2, I don't know much about how they managed to keep people from taking advantage of the system or if they even tried at all. since I did not play this game and as I understand it Daybreak doesn't care much or at all about having P2W mechanics in their games. But as far as I understand it only legendaries were untradeable while epics were tradeable making it possible for people to just exchange cash shop stuff for gear, high tier gear. Now if Intrepid comes up with a way to prevent people from abusing the gifting system in order to gear up or make their characters rich I would also be all for the gifting system.
I'm stretching it a bit here, but I'm reminded of the difference between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3. Diablo 2 was awesome. Diablo 3 is garbage. Why is Diablo 3 garbage? Because you just wander around alone, pick shit up, and you cant trade anything, so you just disenchant it and do nothing with those materials. If everything in this game is BoA, wtf are we going to trade? Everyone will have a crafter alt making the stuff their main needs. So if craftable equipment is all thats tradeable, what kind of market will there be?
Shut me down, please....I hope I'm wrong. Make me understand how not being able to trade anything other than craftables is going to make for a fun and healthy economy.
(Side note, I really have no clue what's actually tradeable, or will be. Maybe more than just craftables are/will be, but I hope it's enough to make the market fun. If it's not fun, whats the point?)
1. If there is tuned gear, selling stuff not tuned to that players build would be pointless to a greater or lesser degree. Players can use stuff...how proficient they are with it is another matter.
2. Gear decays and breaks. Different jobs require different tools.
3. Crafters can craft everything. So what does anything other than craftables mean ?
In Final Fantasy 14 it was easy to avoid because the high tier gear is soulbound so there is no risk of someone exchanging them either directly for gifted items or buying them with gil gotten through the gifting system.
As for EQ 2, I don't know much about how they managed to keep people from taking advantage of the system or if they even tried at all. since I did not play this game and as I understand it Daybreak doesn't care much or at all about having P2W mechanics in their games. But as far as I understand it only legendaries were untradeable while epics were tradeable making it possible for people to just exchange cash shop stuff for gear, high tier gear. Now if Intrepid comes up with a way to prevent people from abusing the gifting system in order to gear up or make their characters rich I would also be all for the gifting system.
I would hope that combat-effective gear not be purchasable for real currency at all, even directly for ourselves, let alone as gifts.
Neither of the games I mentioned really sold any equipped gear or anything at all that would affect your performance. Gifts generally took the form of costumes, seasonal mounts, player housing options, and furniture... lots and lots of furniture. In EQ2, players could even design their own cosmetic items and submit them for approval to be sold, receiving a portion of the profits, essentially crowd-sourcing the game's art development.
The more questionable items sold were things like potions for xp and vitality which would speed up the leveling process, and though not ideal, it was ultimately inconsequential as most time was spent at max-level anyway and more than enough such potions were otherwise free as veteran rewards. The most economically disruptive cash shop items for EQ2 were the subscription extensions that could be traded in-game, as that allowed a new player to get rich without any in-game effort. I would certainly not endorse that.
I mean, I guess it's not a big deal. I'm just saying that I'm likely to spend a great deal more money if they have a convenient means for me to give away exclusive dresses and ponies and fireplaces and such to my friends.
The conversation here is not whether or not the cash shop items themselves are P2W. They are most definitely not going to be in ashes.
The conversation is about how a gifting mechanic could enable unscrupulous people to "gift" those cosmetics in exchange of performance items in-game. or Anything like for example charging for them in items, gold, power levels, raid runs, or anything that will give them an advantage just because they are offering something that's worth real cash to another player that doesn't want to pay for it in real cash.
And since in ashes there are no soulbound items someone unscrupulous could basically go top tier gear by just offering cosmetics they bought with real cash to players that have the top tier items in-game effectively gearing themselves up with top tier gear by just dropping a few hundred dollars which is P2W. Even though the cosmetics that person got from the shop were not P2W at all.
I understand your sentiment that you want to gift stuff to your friends and family, but Intrepid values not having P2W in their game more than earning those extra dollars you could have most likely given them by buying the same item repeated times for your guildmates or loved ones.
This whole conversation just baffles me. EQ2 and FFXIV had a gifting system, and I've shelled out literally thousands of dollars over the years buying cosmetic items for friends and family for birthdays and holidays. I would have never even considered it to be an exploit mechanic, because every aspect of it would be so easy to track right down to your very banking institution.
I know people that sold unwanted, top end raid gear for cash shop items in EQ2. Even going back as far as LoN booster packs being traded for spots on raids where smart loot dictated that they would get full armor sets in one run at the end of EoF.
The developers didn't consider it an issue, and to my knowledge they still don't.
Oh, I never realized it was so bad in that regard. I guess I was just oblivious to such activity. I certainly never saw such a thing in like a decade of playing and raiding there. The notion of even establishing a quid pro quo looting arrangement out of it would never even occur to me. Raid spots were generally at a premium in any case, and I'm sure the rest of the raid would have thought me a creep to even try it.
those unscrupulous people are why people like you who honestly just wants to give something nice to your friends can't have nice things like a gifting system.
If you want to gift items to loved ones and friends send them a Gift Card (like Visa). They can buy in game stuff they want, didn't want to spend their cash on, and thank you later. If they choose to spend that money elsewhere then perhaps the in game cosmetics gift wasn't something they wanted/needed.
As for giving items, you can always sell them super cheap to friends and family. Just not cash shop items.
But on large scale, most of "gifting" would be successfully traded for gold, and since gear is player crafted unbound and will be bought for gold this means RL cash -> gifting ->get gold -> get gear ---- so in short RL cash = gear, and this is the most severe P2W you can get.
I will say it again if the items from the cash shop are soulbound on receipt you cannot sell it or pass it on. Even if you gift it to someone the items will be soulbound.
Let me repeat that word again. SOULBOUND.
@NightshadeRaven I think your missing the point. You you have a costume you want to gift it to someone that is a friend straight from the store. When they receive it it is soul bound. We totally understand what you are saying.
The issue is people would use that as a method to use real life money to purchase cosmetics. Go to an third party website to trade cosmetics which were bought with money for in game items that provide an advantage. They would then gift it to the person using the gift method you are proposing. The other person would then transfer the item with stats to the person they got the gift from. It can and most deffinitely be abused this way if it were allowed and third party websites are already set up to do this sort of thing for multitudes of games. People use loopholes to trade money for items of advantage. It's done all the time.
You may not abuse the system this way but people will which is why they are not allowing it.
Hope this makes sense to you.
When people abuse systems like that it's not only that it becomes a method to turn a cosmetic only shop into a PTW method by using third party sites or sometimes even in game chat and such. It also destroys game economy.
Thought about this thread today. I recently went back to ESO after a long, long break. Bethesda and Zenimax make no apologies for the game being p2w and are in it for the almighty dollar. What I found interesting is that with this latest expansion they did exactly what has been discussed here. They now allow people to gift things from the game store to other people directly, using either their game shop currency or real cash purchases. Guess what is being spammed in chat now? Exactly what people have said here would happen as an example. "Will buy you what you want from store for in-game gold...pst." over and over literally the moment the servers came back up. If we are lucky someone from IS plays ESO also and this will just cement their current policy once they see the can of worms that Zenimax have opened up.
Comments
Exploit is (by definition) when people do not use intended mechanics but go around it and abuse it for other purpose, which is what we have been writing about. Not the intended way, but the abuse of it. Abuse that makes P2W possible. (You receive nothing through the default trade, player gives you gold after the gifting is complete in a separate trade).
Some of us concerned about P2W are suggesting that gifting gold allows P2W.
Most items will be crafted by players and sold by players to players. As of now, players will be able to make close to, if not, top-tier gear.
If you can gift gold, in exchange for something someone else used RL monies for, there is potential for P2W. It's not guaranteed, but the potential exist.
Spend real money on skin for friend, 'gift' skin to friend, friend 'gifts' gold back.
Real money = gold.
That's what some of us are trying to advocate against.
If you are adventuring for gear/resources and sell them to players for gold that's the in game economy working. Minus a sub fee no RL money is used in that type of transaction.
And even that would not stop exploiters from creating armies of characters to give gold.
Then they will just trade garbage for gold to complete transaction
Making them untradeable at the same time makes them ungiftable.
A reasonable idea would be allowing gifting FROM THE SHOP. like steam. when you guy it it will ask "is this a gift".
this way you can gift it to a friend, before it is bound.
the problem with that is, you could only ever gift current items for sale. nothing historical or rare.
just throwing that out there.
Also, gifting cash shop items would be fun for in game contests. Lets say I am a blacksmith and need tons of ore, I can hold a contest, whoever brings me the most ore in a week gets this sweet cloak... of course I could just do it with some fancy item I created aswell, so I guess its not that big of a deal.
but while I am on the subject of p2w... lets say I am a blacksmith and decide to sell my crap wares for 100,000 in game currency, then I pay some nefarious company 10$ to buy my crap sword at that cost... due to the game having so much to do what player made items, how will we avoid this type of situation?
The only way I see is if an item has a specific cost (based on a market) and I cannot sell it for more than that. BUT that isn't realistic or fair to the creators of quality items. If I build a name for myself selling great gear, I should be allowed to charge a premium for specific requests.
It seems very difficult to please both worlds, open market and no p2w.
Their plan is that Ashes will have no soulbound items and if they do implement a soulbound item it will be the exception to the rule rather than the rule. Meaning that you will find top-tier, epic, BiS gear maybe even legendary items for sale in exchange for in-game gold. If they give the people a way to make in-game gold by using real life money they are enabling them to get very powerful by spending real cash. that's why it is pay to win to be able to exchange cash shop items at all. While I realize some people will actually give it as gifts expecting nothing in return the reality is most people will use it to get as much of an advantage as they can. So Intrepid should not implement any tools that enable P2W scenarios for the games sake.
Also this scenario you brought up:
Also, gifting cash shop items would be fun for in game contests. Lets say I am a blacksmith and need tons of ore, I can hold a contest, whoever brings me the most ore in a week gets this sweet cloak... of course I could just do it with some fancy item I created aswell, so I guess its not that big of a deal.
This is literally exchanging real-life cash for in-game items that you can later sell for gold which you can exchange for Best gear. That is totally P2W. Also Now imagine it's not you the one doing the transaction but someone else and instead of ore he exchanges the epic loot he got from a boss in exchange for that cash shop item he can't afford. That is also P2W. Again I cannot stress this enough, even though this might not be what you personally would use it for, there is a ton of people that would, and that's the point. Not enabling that people.
but while I am on the subject of p2w... lets say I am a blacksmith and decide to sell my crap wares for 100,000 in game currency, then I pay some nefarious company 10$ to buy my crap sword at that cost... due to the game having so much to do what player made items, how will we avoid this type of situation?
Shut me down, please....I hope I'm wrong. Make me understand how not being able to trade anything other than craftables is going to make for a fun and healthy economy.
(Side note, I really have no clue what's actually tradeable, or will be. Maybe more than just craftables are/will be, but I hope it's enough to make the market fun. If it's not fun, whats the point?)
Frankly, it seems that if you can't have nice things like a gifting system, then it's a symptom of a larger problem of not effectively dealing with RMT offenders. In any case, if no gifting system exists, I know they are cutting themselves off from the majority of potential profit they can get from me personally.
As for EQ 2, I don't know much about how they managed to keep people from taking advantage of the system or if they even tried at all. since I did not play this game and as I understand it Daybreak doesn't care much or at all about having P2W mechanics in their games. But as far as I understand it only legendaries were untradeable while epics were tradeable making it possible for people to just exchange cash shop stuff for gear, high tier gear.
Now if Intrepid comes up with a way to prevent people from abusing the gifting system in order to gear up or make their characters rich I would also be all for the gifting system.
2. Gear decays and breaks. Different jobs require different tools.
3. Crafters can craft everything. So what does anything other than craftables mean ?
Neither of the games I mentioned really sold any equipped gear or anything at all that would affect your performance. Gifts generally took the form of costumes, seasonal mounts, player housing options, and furniture... lots and lots of furniture. In EQ2, players could even design their own cosmetic items and submit them for approval to be sold, receiving a portion of the profits, essentially crowd-sourcing the game's art development.
The more questionable items sold were things like potions for xp and vitality which would speed up the leveling process, and though not ideal, it was ultimately inconsequential as most time was spent at max-level anyway and more than enough such potions were otherwise free as veteran rewards. The most economically disruptive cash shop items for EQ2 were the subscription extensions that could be traded in-game, as that allowed a new player to get rich without any in-game effort. I would certainly not endorse that.
I mean, I guess it's not a big deal. I'm just saying that I'm likely to spend a great deal more money if they have a convenient means for me to give away exclusive dresses and ponies and fireplaces and such to my friends.
The conversation here is not whether or not the cash shop items themselves are P2W. They are most definitely not going to be in ashes.
The conversation is about how a gifting mechanic could enable unscrupulous people to "gift" those cosmetics in exchange of performance items in-game. or Anything like for example charging for them in items, gold, power levels, raid runs, or anything that will give them an advantage just because they are offering something that's worth real cash to another player that doesn't want to pay for it in real cash.
And since in ashes there are no soulbound items someone unscrupulous could basically go top tier gear by just offering cosmetics they bought with real cash to players that have the top tier items in-game effectively gearing themselves up with top tier gear by just dropping a few hundred dollars which is P2W. Even though the cosmetics that person got from the shop were not P2W at all.
I understand your sentiment that you want to gift stuff to your friends and family, but Intrepid values not having P2W in their game more than earning those extra dollars you could have most likely given them by buying the same item repeated times for your guildmates or loved ones.
The developers didn't consider it an issue, and to my knowledge they still don't.
As for giving items, you can always sell them super cheap to friends and family. Just not cash shop items.
The issue is people would use that as a method to use real life money to purchase cosmetics. Go to an third party website to trade cosmetics which were bought with money for in game items that provide an advantage. They would then gift it to the person using the gift method you are proposing. The other person would then transfer the item with stats to the person they got the gift from. It can and most deffinitely be abused this way if it were allowed and third party websites are already set up to do this sort of thing for multitudes of games. People use loopholes to trade money for items of advantage. It's done all the time.
You may not abuse the system this way but people will which is why they are not allowing it.
Hope this makes sense to you.
When people abuse systems like that it's not only that it becomes a method to turn a cosmetic only shop into a PTW method by using third party sites or sometimes even in game chat and such. It also destroys game economy.