That's pretty much what I tried to deliver with my posts, we just don't know what would be considered immersion breaking and even if we did, there would always be some people that say it is immersion breaking no matter what. The chopper in WoW is not immersion breaking. Have you ever looked around in WoW? Have you seen gnomeregan City of gnomes? The tanks they build, teleporting devices, heck the gnomes are a freaking masterpiece of allowing whatever you want. Have you been in Uldum? You know there is a flying mechanical head as a boss. It's flying, not just driving. The fuck do you know about immersion? Apparently nothing.
I have seen the same in Guild Wars, you can have gigantic golems powered by..something, have a flying city hovering far above ground, but any gun that is technologically more advanced than a flintstone pistol is bullcrap and can't exist. Please people, what did you smoke?
The point is @GMSteven don't let people talk you out of the fantasy YOU created. Some will always be displeased no matter what you do and if one simple skin can turn them away, they never intended to play anyway. (Do give us some more lore tho please, It doesn't need to be story, but you know, some little insights into the people and stuff)
I understand the argument up to a point. But, this is said to be a HIGH FANTASY mmo. Expecting everything to be realistic is absurd. Magic is a overbearing force in high fantasy settings. Besides that, children in medieval times had stuffed animals and dolls! Are we supposed to believe that there were no children's toys in Verra before the darkness came? Was the world grim and dark even before that? From what we have been told (albeit that is very little) Verra was once a beautiful and majestic place where magic thrived. A teddy bear does not seem out of place in a world like that. If anything it is a relic of Verra's past. I am sure what we discover on Verra upon our return will be more grim. That being said, adding contemporary cosmetics (like the aforementioned horse head masks) would be a mistake. Now, if it were a horse's skull being worn as a helmet...
Couldn't agree more with what Grisu said just above. People will never be happy. It is a very good point that everyone have their own opinion on what is and isn't immersive in a game. But please, please do not stride away from your ideas @GMSteven this is YOUR project, YOUR game. If people cannot accept other people's opinion (especially the creator) on what is immersive, then that's their problem, especially if they are ready to leave the entire game if they don't get it their own way. Personally I didn't really like the whole concept of the teddy bear because it's not my style, while other people I know loved it. Does that mean that I think it should not be in the game? NO. I will simply just not buy it, easy solution.
Bottom line is; feedback is great and all, but putting up such a fuss over something that doesn't even have a proper visual of how it will look in the end, is just silly. And just because you don't think it's immersive, doesn't mean everyone else does.
Personally I'm fine with silly cosmetics. As long as we don't get to the point of massive mounts covered in glitter and every kind of particle effect I'm fine with a little silly thing here and there. I think stuffertons reminds me of how whimsical magic can be ala Harry Potter.
While I don't think Stufferton's is a really huge deal, I'm just going by what I'm reading on these forums. And, people's reactions seem to range from curious, to concerned, without being toxic.
That's good, as that's what these forums were made for. For people to express their differing opinions, hopes, and expectations, about Ashes. That's a credit to Steven, and everyone at Intrepid Studio, that they've done an excellent job self promoting their game, and building something that people seem to be hungry for.
I believe Steven has his big boy pants on, and can hear objective opinions about certain elements of Ashes, without taking it personally, or having it steer him away from his vision. Of course he should stay true to his vision. It got him this far, so why stop, or change course, now?
Releasing information in a void, or with limited context/details, is going to engender questions. That's the consequence of being open with development. I think it's a good thing, though. Feedback is good, too, as long as it's constructive. A developer could POSSIBLY take those ideas that are inline with his/her own, and decide to incorporate them, in some fashion. Other's that are not, you just relay that those ideas, while not without merit, don't mesh with your vision.
Disappointments are bound to happen, from both sides of the fence, from developers/producers, to consumers. But, we're all here to support Intrepid, and Ashes, and it's heartening to see the enthusiasm!
Lol you guys are thinking about this too much. I love the bear concept art to death and hope to see more cute and femenine themed cosmetics in the future. As long as the finished product blends in to the world, no F##ks Given how cute or wierd it is im on board.
I believe they were making up for valentines day with thier theme and i absolutely love it. I hope i see a christmas themed stuffed deer later in December (😉😉 WANT DAT!!!!)
Im happy that they listened to the people that love cute themed cosmetics. I wouldn't have bought any cosmetics if they were all dark and gritty like the necromancer cosmetic pack.
Thanks intrepid for thinking about us, ill keep supporting the best i can.
LOL #nine-tailed-fox mount skin LOL ...... WANT DAT!!!!
It's a fantasy world with magic. It also has children. Children love toys no matter what culture they are a part of. I fully expect there to be animated little orc stuffed animals that fight each other, or a unicorn rocking horse for a kid.
Life doesn't always have to be so edgy. Even in an MMO setting of turmoil and despair, there will always be children who need entertained and inspired.
It's a fantasy world with magic. It also has children. Children love toys no matter what culture they are a part of. I fully expect there to be animated little orc stuffed animals that fight each other, or a unicorn rocking horse for a kid.
Life doesn't always have to be so edgy. Even in an MMO setting of turmoil and despair, there will always be children who need entertained and inspired.
That's pretty much what I tried to deliver with my posts, we just don't know what would be considered immersion breaking and even if we did, there would always be some people that say it is immersion breaking no matter what. The chopper in WoW is not immersion breaking. Have you ever looked around in WoW? Have you seen gnomeregan City of gnomes? The tanks they build, teleporting devices, heck the gnomes are a freaking masterpiece of allowing whatever you want. Have you been in Uldum? You know there is a flying mechanical head as a boss. It's flying, not just driving. The fuck do you know about immersion? Apparently nothing.
Easy there Grisu. LOL. Chill out pal, no one ate your dog. The boss in Uldum doesn't sputter sputter roar up to you while you are checking your mail. The boss in Uldum doesn't fly across your screen while you are skinning bears. The boss in Uldum doesn't park next to you when turning in a quest. Clunk clunk sputter vroom vroom. Yeah. Distinct difference between a mech you are going to see once, maybe twice in a dungeon or raid compared to something you are going to see 200x a day. Look above....OP asked for opinions and I gave one so now kindly get over yourself.
And your personal feelings have nothing to do with what is immersion breaking and the state of the lore is. Immersion is about what is possible and what isn't in the world. The chopper is part of the world. It's technological existence is sound and integrated into the worlds lore.
So you kindly get over your own personal feelings and stop trying to validate your own personal views with words that do not belong in your argument. It's simply not immersion breaking if the world has a sound reason for it. You just don't like the immersion the world provides, it's a big difference.
And your personal feelings have nothing to do with what is immersion breaking and the state of the lore is. Immersion is about what is possible and what isn't in the world. The chopper is part of the world. It's technological existence is sound and integrated into the worlds lore.
So you kindly get over your own personal feelings and stop trying to validate your own personal views with words that do not belong in your argument. It's simply not immersion breaking if the world has a sound reason for it. You just don't like the immersion the world provides, it's a big difference.
Says the person who hates the idea of chainmail bikini. Nice. Slow clap.
And your personal feelings have nothing to do with what is immersion breaking and the state of the lore is. Immersion is about what is possible and what isn't in the world. The chopper is part of the world. It's technological existence is sound and integrated into the worlds lore.
So you kindly get over your own personal feelings and stop trying to validate your own personal views with words that do not belong in your argument. It's simply not immersion breaking if the world has a sound reason for it. You just don't like the immersion the world provides, it's a big difference.
Says the person who hates the idea of chainmail bikini. Nice. Slow clap.
Kind of funny when people compare the immersion of the world to a chainmail bikini armor which is simply un-practical in terms of usage, for exaple if there are magical puppets that transform into a dragon or whatever then it is still within the realms of immersion if the world contains a means to acheive that result (like a magical enchantment), but bikini armor just does not cover a large part of the body so unless ALL the humans in that world have some insanely hard skin where they don't need armor then it would be impractical (well they wouldn't need armor if that was the case anyway).
Kind of funny when people compare the immersion of the world to a chainmail bikini armor which is simply un-practical in terms of usage, for exaple if there are magical puppets that transform into a dragon or whatever then it is still within the realms of immersion if the world contains a means to acheive that result (like a magical enchantment), but bikini armor just does not cover a large part of the body so unless ALL the humans in that world have some insanely hard skin where they don't need armor then it would be impractical (well they wouldn't need armor if that was the case anyway).
Because magic. Let me have a thong powered force field. /shrugs
I just think there are so many people being hypocritical on here its just silly really.
Kind of funny when people compare the immersion of the world to a chainmail bikini armor which is simply un-practical in terms of usage, for exaple if there are magical puppets that transform into a dragon or whatever then it is still within the realms of immersion if the world contains a means to acheive that result (like a magical enchantment), but bikini armor just does not cover a large part of the body so unless ALL the humans in that world have some insanely hard skin where they don't need armor then it would be impractical (well they wouldn't need armor if that was the case anyway).
Because magic. Let me have a thong powered force field. /shrugs
I just think there are so many people being hypocritical on here its just silly really.
I understand that but just like I said there is a difference between immersion and ridiculousness, otherwise magic could be used to explain everything and anything.
Kind of funny when people compare the immersion of the world to a chainmail bikini armor which is simply un-practical in terms of usage, for exaple if there are magical puppets that transform into a dragon or whatever then it is still within the realms of immersion if the world contains a means to acheive that result (like a magical enchantment), but bikini armor just does not cover a large part of the body so unless ALL the humans in that world have some insanely hard skin where they don't need armor then it would be impractical (well they wouldn't need armor if that was the case anyway).
Because magic. Let me have a thong powered force field. /shrugs
I just think there are so many people being hypocritical on here its just silly really.
I understand that but just like I said there is a difference between immersion and ridiculousness, otherwise magic could be used to explain everything and anything.
Which it is in the case of a stuffed toy that happens to be a mount.
And some on here are arguing that the creative director should have the artistic license to do what he likes (rightly) and everyone who doesn't like a sudden change in direction should STFU (wrongly).
If Intrepid change their mind and decide to go with **** and bikini chain mail, then not one of you has the right to complain. You must simply suck it up and give steven the thumbs up. Simple as that. But everyone knows everyone has limits on their immersion that they will not go beyond. There are some routes intrepid may take that others simply cant follow. And saying one persons acceptance should be applicable to everyone is simply beyond belief TBH.
But that is what makes and breaks civilizations and MMOs. Finding compromises that are tolerable to everyone. The better you are at doing that you are, the bigger the player base you get. The worse you are at doing that, the more niche you become and the tinier the player base you get, because you go down routes fewer and fewer people/players will follow.
People say WoW was awesome because it had a massive playerbase. Just imagine if it actually appealed to all MMO players and they actually captured everyone that played something different instead because for them it sucked.
I would argue that there was not a "sudden change in direction". All the way back at the kickstarter we had mount skins that looked a bit ridiculous and fantastical.
@Rune_Relic never said that. I just made a quip on the bacon/meat armor that was joked about quite a while back and even that comment was pro bikini. I think you missread something?
Just going to say, I'm here because of that mount. Ironically because a streamer was calling it out. Many in his chat wanted it though. Should be possible to design it in such a way that it won't look out of place.
If you start an in-game family will you have to change the diapers on your in-game child?
Certainly! But remember, if you're not going to clothe your baby in "full plate diapers", then you need to get the specially enchanted "bikini diapers", that protect the baby's skin in a force field. The force fields also double as sunscreen, available in 15, 30, 50, and 75 spf!!!
To be honest when I saw the Teddy Bear Mount my heart did sink.
However if the lore behind it makes sense like some people have posted (Wizard animated) then it makes the pill a little easier to swallow. JUst hope i don't enter a town full of Teddy bear mounts and Kung fu Pandas because of this crazy Wizard.....where is he can we lock him up please?
I would argue that there was not a "sudden change in direction". All the way back at the kickstarter we had mount skins that looked a bit ridiculous and fantastical.
This is a valid point. There were possible red flags being waved. But many of those could have been put down to genetic hybrids and such...pretty much like the tulnar. If the Tulnar suddenly became the cast of toy story though, I think you would have a more solid point.
..and this is where the problem lies, 'the illusion' with emphasis 'of reality'.
After thinking about it a while, I thought I would try to paint a picture about that reality and whose version of it the players might expect. Which IMHO can be divided broadly into two camps. Those who love the commercialised version of an MMO and those who love a true version of an MMO.
The commercialised version: Insert anything into your game that sells well and create a personal gratification market place. 1. Sex sells well. 2. Kids toys always sell well. 3. Gimmicks sell well for the novelty factor. 4. Effort reducing packages sell well if its the easier option. 5. Time reducing packages sell well if its the easier option. Such things are an appeasement of the market place style MMO, that sacrifices the communal virtual world in order to sell stuff and maximise profits. An excellent business model where WoW bulked at 1, but it didnt stop the ERP ...and asian models that simply have no reservations on anything where profit is involved. The Lore is made to fit the Shop.
The true version: This is the recreation of a virtual world the likes of Tolkien or Terry Brooks or Stephen Donaldson or from the hobbit or lord of the rings films. There is no mass commercialised use of overt sexual desire to drive sales. There is no sacrifice of the gritty realism to allow the creation of a childrens toy market to drive sales. There is no ridiculous gimmicks that troll the realism of the game. It does not mock itself to drive sales through humour. There is no sacrifice of the communal reality for personal gratification it remains faithful to itself. The Shop is made to fit the Lore.
Both of these are High Fantasy. But they are definitely not the same thing. One is a deeply immersive 'shared' alternate reality. One is a mutiplayer parody of it. So we stand at a crossroads where Intrepid need to be transparent about which way they are going to go. Maximum profits dictate the WoW, Asian path of an open market place, where the MMO is simply the shop front for sales of goods. Once they open this pandoras box...there is no turning back. A true experience dictates that the shared virtual reality is not sacrificed in the name of whatever sells well in the shop or any kind of personal gratification. By all means have a cash shop. But dont sell out the genre. If you do that, you become just another wow or asian game.
Personally I ache for the Genuine alternate reality. If the game will merely offer a parody of that 'illusion of reality'..then I do not belong here. Thats OK. I have no problem with that. Theres a bum for every seat as they say. And I hope the rest of you have found what you are looking for. I wish Intrepid well either way.
Comments
The chopper in WoW is not immersion breaking. Have you ever looked around in WoW? Have you seen gnomeregan City of gnomes? The tanks they build, teleporting devices, heck the gnomes are a freaking masterpiece of allowing whatever you want.
Have you been in Uldum? You know there is a flying mechanical head as a boss. It's flying, not just driving. The fuck do you know about immersion? Apparently nothing.
I have seen the same in Guild Wars, you can have gigantic golems powered by..something, have a flying city hovering far above ground, but any gun that is technologically more advanced than a flintstone pistol is bullcrap and can't exist. Please people, what did you smoke?
The point is @GMSteven don't let people talk you out of the fantasy YOU created. Some will always be displeased no matter what you do and if one simple skin can turn them away, they never intended to play anyway. (Do give us some more lore tho please, It doesn't need to be story, but you know, some little insights into the people and stuff)
That being said, adding contemporary cosmetics (like the aforementioned horse head masks) would be a mistake. Now, if it were a horse's skull being worn as a helmet...
If people cannot accept other people's opinion (especially the creator) on what is immersive, then that's their problem, especially if they are ready to leave the entire game if they don't get it their own way.
Personally I didn't really like the whole concept of the teddy bear because it's not my style, while other people I know loved it. Does that mean that I think it should not be in the game? NO. I will simply just not buy it, easy solution.
Bottom line is; feedback is great and all, but putting up such a fuss over something that doesn't even have a proper visual of how it will look in the end, is just silly. And just because you don't think it's immersive, doesn't mean everyone else does.
That's good, as that's what these forums were made for. For people to express their differing opinions, hopes, and expectations, about Ashes. That's a credit to Steven, and everyone at Intrepid Studio, that they've done an excellent job self promoting their game, and building something that people seem to be hungry for.
I believe Steven has his big boy pants on, and can hear objective opinions about certain elements of Ashes, without taking it personally, or having it steer him away from his vision. Of course he should stay true to his vision. It got him this far, so why stop, or change course, now?
Releasing information in a void, or with limited context/details, is going to engender questions. That's the consequence of being open with development. I think it's a good thing, though. Feedback is good, too, as long as it's constructive. A developer could POSSIBLY take those ideas that are inline with his/her own, and decide to incorporate them, in some fashion. Other's that are not, you just relay that those ideas, while not without merit, don't mesh with your vision.
Disappointments are bound to happen, from both sides of the fence, from developers/producers, to consumers. But, we're all here to support Intrepid, and Ashes, and it's heartening to see the enthusiasm!
I believe they were making up for valentines day with thier theme and i absolutely love it. I hope i see a christmas themed stuffed deer later in December
(😉😉 WANT DAT!!!!)
Im happy that they listened to the people that love cute themed cosmetics. I wouldn't have bought any cosmetics if they were all dark and gritty like the necromancer cosmetic pack.
Thanks intrepid for thinking about us, ill keep supporting the best i can.
LOL #nine-tailed-fox mount skin LOL ...... WANT DAT!!!!
Life doesn't always have to be so edgy. Even in an MMO setting of turmoil and despair, there will always be children who need entertained and inspired.
Small toy on wall shelf, or in kids hands is completely different thing then huge mount version riding through forest.
I don't know why people even compare these 2 completely different things...
That being said, let me express once again how happy I am we will not have people running around wearing horse head masks yelling trololol.
So you kindly get over your own personal feelings and stop trying to validate your own personal views with words that do not belong in your argument. It's simply not immersion breaking if the world has a sound reason for it.
You just don't like the immersion the world provides, it's a big difference.
Nice. Slow clap.
/shrugs
I just think there are so many people being hypocritical on here its just silly really.
And some on here are arguing that the creative director should have the artistic license to do what he likes (rightly) and everyone who doesn't like a sudden change in direction should STFU (wrongly).
If Intrepid change their mind and decide to go with **** and bikini chain mail, then not one of you has the right to complain. You must simply suck it up and give steven the thumbs up. Simple as that. But everyone knows everyone has limits on their immersion that they will not go beyond. There are some routes intrepid may take that others simply cant follow. And saying one persons acceptance should be applicable to everyone is simply beyond belief TBH.
But that is what makes and breaks civilizations and MMOs. Finding compromises that are tolerable to everyone. The better you are at doing that you are, the bigger the player base you get. The worse you are at doing that, the more niche you become and the tinier the player base you get, because you go down routes fewer and fewer people/players will follow.
People say WoW was awesome because it had a massive playerbase. Just imagine if it actually appealed to all MMO players and they actually captured everyone that played something different instead because for them it sucked.
I love the username correlation to this topic!
To be honest when I saw the Teddy Bear Mount my heart did sink.
However if the lore behind it makes sense like some people have posted (Wizard animated) then it makes the pill a little easier to swallow. JUst hope i don't enter a town full of Teddy bear mounts and Kung fu Pandas because of this crazy Wizard.....where is he can we lock him up please?
The secret to immersion, ironically for a fantasy game, is to create the illusion of reality.
That is what I intend to do.
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/our-immersive-world-environments/
..and this is where the problem lies, 'the illusion' with emphasis 'of reality'.
After thinking about it a while, I thought I would try to paint a picture about that reality and whose version of it the players might expect. Which IMHO can be divided broadly into two camps. Those who love the commercialised version of an MMO and those who love a true version of an MMO.
The commercialised version:
Insert anything into your game that sells well and create a personal gratification market place.
1. Sex sells well.
2. Kids toys always sell well.
3. Gimmicks sell well for the novelty factor.
4. Effort reducing packages sell well if its the easier option.
5. Time reducing packages sell well if its the easier option.
Such things are an appeasement of the market place style MMO, that sacrifices the communal virtual world in order to sell stuff and maximise profits.
An excellent business model where WoW bulked at 1, but it didnt stop the ERP ...and asian models that simply have no reservations on anything where profit is involved.
The Lore is made to fit the Shop.
The true version:
This is the recreation of a virtual world the likes of Tolkien or Terry Brooks or Stephen Donaldson or from the hobbit or lord of the rings films.
There is no mass commercialised use of overt sexual desire to drive sales.
There is no sacrifice of the gritty realism to allow the creation of a childrens toy market to drive sales.
There is no ridiculous gimmicks that troll the realism of the game. It does not mock itself to drive sales through humour.
There is no sacrifice of the communal reality for personal gratification it remains faithful to itself.
The Shop is made to fit the Lore.
Both of these are High Fantasy.
But they are definitely not the same thing.
One is a deeply immersive 'shared' alternate reality. One is a mutiplayer parody of it.
So we stand at a crossroads where Intrepid need to be transparent about which way they are going to go.
Maximum profits dictate the WoW, Asian path of an open market place, where the MMO is simply the shop front for sales of goods.
Once they open this pandoras box...there is no turning back.
A true experience dictates that the shared virtual reality is not sacrificed in the name of whatever sells well in the shop or any kind of personal gratification.
By all means have a cash shop.
But dont sell out the genre.
If you do that, you become just another wow or asian game.
Personally I ache for the Genuine alternate reality.
If the game will merely offer a parody of that 'illusion of reality'..then I do not belong here.
Thats OK. I have no problem with that. Theres a bum for every seat as they say.
And I hope the rest of you have found what you are looking for.
I wish Intrepid well either way.