This is speculation on your part, and one I totally disagree with.
Even *if* all classes are able to tank top end raid content while it is still competitive, if one tank class is even 1% better than the others - which is what you would have to expect the tankiest tank to be at a minimum (I would expect more like 5 - 7%) - tanks of competitive raid guilds *will* be that class, not because their guild forces them to, but because they want to be the best raid tank they can at any cost. In most cases, it will be the main tank that knows the in's and out's of tanking, and it will be them that makes the decision as to what class they need to be to best do their job.
A player that isn't willing to do what ever it takes to be the best what ever the cost won't be a competitive raid guilds main tank, and as such the whole conversation doesn't even apply to them.
Thats the point though....if there is a 'best'....then it isnt balanced Balanced means there is no best.
Quick off topic that leads to the same topic, wow thats a bit strange wording. So, I don't think this is a holy trinity game, I think it is a quad. There are references to tanks, DPS, healers, and support. The quad is nothing new there where a few games that imputed it into game play, but that really changes the way raiding was run. The effects of a buffer side changed what people where looking for in the tank. If they had a strong damage absorb support they insisted on a high DPS tank over a defensive one. While if they had a DPS buffer they wanted a more defensive or control tank. That's where min/max is subject, if a support class adds a stronger utility than what a tank is more popular for, the raid will swap the tank for what they feel will make the run time shorter. Sure, a super defensive tank will make it so you beat a boss, but if you have a tank that with the support will kill the same boss faster you choose the faster tank. At some point the hard core elite raiders won't be the only players finishing the end content, so their new challenge is to do it faster than anyone else. That in itself changes the makeup of the raid.
My understanding of top end raid guilds was also to clear content in the quickest time, where most raid groups are just happy to complete the content. Normally because they were farming shinies, so didnt want the job to take any longer than necessary. /shrugs
Quick off topic that leads to the same topic, wow thats a bit strange wording. So, I don't think this is a holy trinity game, I think it is a quad. There are references to tanks, DPS, healers, and support. The quad is nothing new there where a few games that imputed it into game play, but that really changes the way raiding was run. The effects of a buffer side changed what people where looking for in the tank. If they had a strong damage absorb support they insisted on a high DPS tank over a defensive one. While if they had a DPS buffer they wanted a more defensive or control tank. That's where min/max is subject, if a support class adds a stronger utility than what a tank is more popular for, the raid will swap the tank for what they feel will make the run time shorter. Sure, a super defensive tank will make it so you beat a boss, but if you have a tank that with the support will kill the same boss faster you choose the faster tank. At some point the hard core elite raiders won't be the only players finishing the end content, so their new challenge is to do it faster than anyone else. That in itself changes the makeup of the raid.
You have a few slightly off points.
First of all, utility doesn't change the makeup of a raid - not from the perspective of a raider that has spent 10+ years raiding in games with utility. The concept is only really new to MMO players that have only played WoW or WoW-clones.
Utility is versatile by it's nature. If content calls for a specific tank, you use that tank and then buff appropriately. If the content doesn't call for a specific tank, you use your main tank and buff appropriately.
Guilds or raids that are less focused on raiding may find that they can over buff an under performing tank to get it to perform in an adequate manner, but I have not spend any time in this thread talking about less focused guilds or raids.
Thats the point though....if there is a 'best'....then it isnt balanced Balanced means there is no best.
I would argue that if a tank - say, Nightshield - is preferred in group content but still has a place in raid content, and if Guardian is preferred in raid content but still has a place in group content, then that is perfect balance.
If Intrepid attempt to balance all classes perfectly is all aspects, AoC will become nothing more than a bland WoW-clone with nodes and castles.
I would concede a little to your point if it weren't for the fact that - should you start a character as a tank wanting to run group content and then finding yourself suddenly the main tank of a raid guild, you can change class to better suit your new role if you so chose. Conversely, should you then chose to spend most of your time soloing instead of grouping, you are able to change to a class that is better suited to that, as well.
Balanced if both Nightshield and Guardian are preferred as main tank in top end raids based on player skill, character build and the config of player characters in the specific raid group.
WoW clone would be having just one of the sub-classes of an archetype be objectively OP. You should not have to change your subclass in order to be the main tank of a top end raid. Main tank for top end raids should, in general, be viable for any of the Tank sub-classes. Since the Primary Archetype is Tank. We should not reach level 30 or Level 50 and suddenly find that we are no longer able to perform the role we have been for most of the game. My Summoner should still be viable as main summoner whether I am summoning many pets, one powerful pet or some form of effect, like a Shroud of Darkness or Poison Cloud.
Changing secondary archetype doesn't happen at the drop of a hat, like in WoW. If I'm a Paladin, I should not have to change to Guardian just to succeed as main tank in a raid. Raid content should not be determining my choice to change secondary archetype. Just as raid content should not be determining whether I change from Necromancer to Beast Master or Conjurer.
Balanced if both Nightshield and Guardian are preferred as main tank in top end raids based on player skill, character build and the config of player characters in the specific raid group.
WoW clone would be having just one of the sub-classes of an archetype be objectively OP. You should not have to change your subclass in order to be the main tank of a top end raid. Main tank for top end raids should, in general, be viable for any of the Tank sub-classes. Since the Primary Archetype is Tank. We should not reach level 30 or Level 50 and suddenly find that we are no longer able to perform the role we have been for most of the game. My Summoner should still be viable as main summoner whether I am summoning many pets, one powerful pet or some form of effect, like a Shroud of Darkness or Poison Cloud.
Changing secondary archetype doesn't happen at the drop of a hat, like in WoW. If I'm a Paladin, I should not have to change to Guardian just to succeed as main tank in a raid. Raid content should not be determining my choice to change secondary archetype. Just as raid content should not be determining whether I change from Necromancer to Beast Master or Conjurer.
You've got a few points here, and as they are made well enough I'll actually address them.
Player skill is a huge factor. But as players can change classes - either by rolling a second character or in the case of tank/X, performing an as yet undefined task to switch secondary class. A skilled Guardian will be a better tank on competitive raid content than a skilled Paladin.
In some raids and guilds, people will not have the same care of wanting things to be the best they can be. In those raids and guilds, taking along a Paladin may well be what is done if that is the character that their most skilled tank player uses. However, if you are a main tank of a competitive raid guild, you wouldn't even think twice if there was a need for you to change class - even if that meant rolling a new character and leveling it up (I've done this a number of times).
This is the dedication that competitive raiders display that puts them at the top end. The very fact someone is arguing that they shouldn't have to be class "X" to perform a role in a competitive raid tells me with absolute certainty that this player will not be in a competitive raid at all anyway, as they do not have the dedication required.
Such a player may well be a main tank for a raid that is not acting in the same competitive level, and may even be able to do so on a Paladin. However, as said, that is outside of the scope of what I am talking about in this thread, and would likely require things like over-buffing, over-healing, side-tanks and the like. Measures which sometimes work, but inherently slow the raid down.
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A WoW clone in terms of classes is any game in which final class choice doesn't matter.
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There absolutely will be people reaching level 30, picking a subclass and then finding they are unable to do what they had been doing in game up to that point. An example already given in this thread is a summoner - they will have spent 30 levels using a pet and playing as a fairly generic (all things considered) summoner, and then depending on subclass suddenly find themselves without an actual pet to fight with them. This is a massive change in what that player can do, and in the way they play the character.
With tanks though, I don't believe you will find yourself tanking to level 30 and then unable to tank after selecting a sub-class. I firmly believe all tank/X classes (and maybe even 2 X/tank classes) will be able to tank level appropriate group content, world events and PvP just fine. Since there is no competitive PvE raid content sub level 50, no one will be able to say "I was main tanking competitive raids all the way up to 50, and now I suddenly can't".
---
Now to reiterate my position, first on people then on content.
Competitive raiders will be what class is best able to perform their role. These people will not say "but I shouldn't have to", they are happy to do what is needed by the raid as a unit. People that are not happy to do this will never be put in a situation where it is something they may have to do, so the people that do not want to do this need not worry about it at all.
Content in AoC will be designed with a top end that a very small portion of the population complete while relevant- as per Stevens comments. He has said this is so that all players have something to aspire to. It is the content that the people above will be focused on - and both by definition and by design it is a small proportion of the population of the game.
Steven has said raid composition is something he wants to put a focus back on (raid composition being what classes are in the raid, whom they are buffing and how they are all interacting - not just having a checklist of classes present). Based on that, specific classes will be important in raids in many positions, and no one position in a raid is more important (from a class standpoint) than the main tank.
Edit; you can disagree with any points made, that is fine. I feel I have made my point several times in this thread - however, if there is anything you feel I have not addresses, ask it and I will happily address it from my point of view.
Balanced if both Nightshield and Guardian are preferred as main tank in top end raids based on player skill, character build and the config of player characters in the specific raid group.
WoW clone would be having just one of the sub-classes of an archetype be objectively OP. You should not have to change your subclass in order to be the main tank of a top end raid. Main tank for top end raids should, in general, be viable for any of the Tank sub-classes. Since the Primary Archetype is Tank. We should not reach level 30 or Level 50 and suddenly find that we are no longer able to perform the role we have been for most of the game. My Summoner should still be viable as main summoner whether I am summoning many pets, one powerful pet or some form of effect, like a Shroud of Darkness or Poison Cloud.
Changing secondary archetype doesn't happen at the drop of a hat, like in WoW. If I'm a Paladin, I should not have to change to Guardian just to succeed as main tank in a raid. Raid content should not be determining my choice to change secondary archetype. Just as raid content should not be determining whether I change from Necromancer to Beast Master or Conjurer.
You've got a few points here, and as they are made well enough I'll actually address them.
Player skill is a huge factor. But as players can change classes - either by rolling a second character or in the case of tank/X, performing an as yet undefined task to switch secondary class. A skilled Guardian will be a better tank on competitive raid content than a skilled Paladin.
In some raids and guilds, people will not have the same care of wanting things to be the best they can be. In those raids and guilds, taking along a Paladin may well be what is done if that is the character that their most skilled tank player uses. However, if you are a main tank of a competitive raid guild, you wouldn't even think twice if there was a need for you to change class - even if that meant rolling a new character and leveling it up (I've done this a number of times).
This is the dedication that competitive raiders display that puts them at the top end. The very fact someone is arguing that they shouldn't have to be class "X" to perform a role in a competitive raid tells me with absolute certainty that this player will not be in a competitive raid at all anyway, as they do not have the dedication required.
Such a player may well be a main tank for a raid that is not acting in the same competitive level, and may even be able to do so on a Paladin. However, as said, that is outside of the scope of what I am talking about in this thread, and would likely require things like over-buffing, over-healing, side-tanks and the like. Measures which sometimes work, but inherently slow the raid down.
---
A WoW clone in terms of classes is any game in which final class choice doesn't matter.
---
There absolutely will be people reaching level 30, picking a subclass and then finding they are unable to do what they had been doing in game up to that point. An example already given in this thread is a summoner - they will have spent 30 levels using a pet and playing as a fairly generic (all things considered) summoner, and then depending on subclass suddenly find themselves without an actual pet to fight with them. This is a massive change in what that player can do, and in the way they play the character.
With tanks though, I don't believe you will find yourself tanking to level 30 and then unable to tank after selecting a sub-class. I firmly believe all tank/X classes (and maybe even 2 X/tank classes) will be able to tank level appropriate group content, world events and PvP just fine. Since there is no competitive PvE raid content sub level 50, no one will be able to say "I was main tanking competitive raids all the way up to 50, and now I suddenly can't".
---
Now to reiterate my position, first on people then on content.
Competitive raiders will be what class is best able to perform their role. These people will not say "but I shouldn't have to", they are happy to do what is needed by the raid as a unit. People that are not happy to do this will never be put in a situation where it is something they may have to do, so the people that do not want to do this need not worry about it at all.
Yet dynamic content means you dont know your required role.
Content in AoC will be designed with a top end that a very small portion of the population complete while relevant- as per Stevens comments. He has said this is so that all players have something to aspire to. It is the content that the people above will be focused on - and both by definition and by design it is a small proportion of the population of the game.
Relevance ?
Steven has said raid composition is something he wants to put a focus back on (raid composition being what classes are in the raid, whom they are buffing and how they are all interacting - not just having a checklist of classes present). Based on that, specific classes will be important in raids in many positions, and no one position in a raid is more important (from a class standpoint) than the main tank.
No one is arguing about the role of the tank. Merely the type of the tank being viable.
Edit; you can disagree with any points made, that is fine. I feel I have made my point several times in this thread - however, if there is anything you feel I have not addresses, ask it and I will happily address it from my point of view.
I get your angle. You come at it from specific tool for a specific job. In the right context, one tool will be better than another. But that is on the proviso you know what the context will be to establish the right tool for the right job.
Devoid of context in which to place the type of tank, the only thing left is to compare the tank types one vs one. If none of them offer any advantage without knowing context, then the choice cant be made. All are viable.
You say you will always bring a penetration tank if you dont know the content. But then you may find yourself in a context will <insert your tank type of choice> actually woudl have performed better in the situation you are on. So you made a pre-emptive choice..but it was the wrong one. And you have no idea how many of those choices will or will not be the wrong one.
So forgive me if this has been brought up already (I'm on a phone so sped through a lot if the thread) but why not use a greater diversity in gear to allow compensation (or enhancement) of each classes strengths and weaknesses instead of just trying to balance every tank class to be viable in every type of content? Maybe a tank/Rogue uses defense/avoidance gear to compensate and make their defense on par with a tank/tank. Or lifegain gear to compensate for a raid with fewer healers? I'd personally love more varied and unique classes combined with non cookie cutter gear that let's me choose how I want to play even more completely while giving me the option of carrying a second (or third, or fourth) set of gear for specific situations. I'm tired of the 'Here's your class armor for this expansion, that's all you have to select from. Have fun'
Personally, I would love to see tanking have a high skillcap in this game. I feel like a player shouldn't be able to just sit back and rely on their healers to keep them alive, while holding aggro by spamming aggro generating abilities.
I'd like for tanking to be dynamic and challenging. A player shouldn't be able to take the majority of a bosses damage (disregarding temporary abilities that would allow you to) without dying. Tanks should need to dodge, and deflect, and do all kinds of fun stuff to make their healer's job possible.
That would make tanking more enjoyable/realistic for me, at least.
Personally, I would love to see tanking have a high skillcap in this game. I feel like a player shouldn't be able to just sit back and rely on their healers to keep them alive, while holding aggro by spamming aggro generating abilities.
I'd like for tanking to be dynamic and challenging. A player shouldn't be able to take the majority of a bosses damage (disregarding temporary abilities that would allow you to) without dying. Tanks should need to dodge, and deflect, and do all kinds of fun stuff to make their healer's job possible.
That would make tanking more enjoyable/realistic for me, at least.
- Sikuba
What you are asking for is different versions of tanking. It shouldnt be a case of 'or this' but a case of 'and this' You imply you want to kill traditional styles rather than allow new ones too
The way I look at it, the most enjoyable long term game balance between class balance and individuality goes something like this:
Every class gets broken down into 5 categories: HP, Mitigation, Avoidance, DPS, Utility (Healing, CC, Buff, Debuff, etc.). All on a scale from 1-5. Your Core class gives 10 points (predetermined by the Devs), your secondary class gives 5 points (predetermined by the Devs), and your gear can give up to 3 points (Your choice).
Since we are talking tanking, lets look at the tank base: (all conjecture)
This shows that by doubling down on tanking you loose your flexibility in order to gain dominance in a single area.
Now, lets say 'High End' raiding is broken down into 5 Tiers that constantly rotate as new content comes out. In order to Main Tank in Tier 1 you need to have: One level 4 and one level 3 tanking ability (HP/Mitigation/Avoidance). All 3 tanks are capable of walking into Tier 1 'High End' content and tank with no specialized gear.
Tier 2 requires: Two Rank 4s, or One Rank 5 and One Rank 3. Only Guardians can walk into these raids and MT without specialized gear, but the NB and SB are both easily within reach with a couple item drops.
Tier 3 requires: Three Rank 4s, or One Rank 5 and One Rank 4. Again, Guardians can walk into here with minimal specialized gear and operate, barely. NBs and SBs need a bit of specialization, to hold up.
Tier 4 and 5, etc etc. At the highest end raids only a Guardian spec'd to tank should be able to (with an unknown group of people) handle a raid boss. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean the other tanks aren't viable if geared to fit with their personalized raid group. It just means you need to compensate elsewhere. Say a healer that is spec'd to level 6 in utility (heals or wards) to make up for the missing 1 level the SB/NM need. Or a crazy pure healer that is spec'd to heal/ward up to level 8 of 5 to compensate and can pull a weak or DPS spec'd tank through the fire. This is, after all, supposed to be a game about community. Lets make content and classes viable by leaning on others in our tight knit community and a plethora of options, rather than trying to play a strict numbers game saying all tanks DPS needs to be within 5% of each other, all tanks mitigation needs to be within 5% of each other, etc etc (not that anyone here has said that, its just what happened with FF14 and its why I stopped playing).
All of this of course doesn't account for actual event scripting and building events around the classes strengths and weaknesses either. Which I also hope happens.
Noaani is the only one who thinks that non-Guardian Tanks would be relying more on healers to compensate for not using plate and shield.
In Ashes, savvy players should supporting their choice of sub-class with gear and with racial and social augments - in addition to their sub-class augments. And the non-healer members of the group should also be able to support that playstyle. Either with secondary Tanks, or even with secondary Mages using cc, like Ice Prison to stack with Bulwark or secondary Rogues using Caltrop to stack with Bulwark.
I was trained by a premiere PvP combat group in Wizard101. I taught them how to maximize the chances of getting the combat abilities they wanted in their pets. They taught me how to use my abilities to augment theirs for maximum effect. I became surprised when people started to call for help defeating bosses I had easily soloed, but as I helped them I realized they didn't know how to stack their abilities.
That's the way it should be in Ashes. Again similar to fighting in Log Horizon. People should learn to support the abilities people in the group/raid like to use, rather than trying to enforce cookie-cutter configs. And the content should not be designed to rely on cookie-cutter builds, party configs or strategies for success.
If a Nightshield likes to use Bulwark augmented with Caltrops, a Shadow Guardian should able to stack that effect with Caltrops augmented by Bulwark. And that should be just as effective as a Guardian augmenting Bulwark with Bulwark and an Assassin supporting the Guardian with Caltrops augmented with Caltrops. And then a Spellstone can add suppport with a Fireball augmented with Bulwark.
Tank subclass can also evade damage or self-heal. A Paladin might augment Cover with Rightous Blessing.
Of course, there will be conservative elitist groups who will demand that everyone conforms to their spreadsheets. But, that should be the only way to defeat content. Even top end raid content. The key to defeating top end raid content should not be designing Tank/Tank to be the only viable main tank for top end raid gear. The key to success should be knowing how the members of your raid like to play and then syncing everyone's abilities to stack maximum effect with the subclasses available in the group.
Balanced if both Nightshield and Guardian are preferred as main tank in top end raids based on player skill, character build and the config of player characters in the specific raid group.
WoW clone would be having just one of the sub-classes of an archetype be objectively OP. You should not have to change your subclass in order to be the main tank of a top end raid. Main tank for top end raids should, in general, be viable for any of the Tank sub-classes. Since the Primary Archetype is Tank. We should not reach level 30 or Level 50 and suddenly find that we are no longer able to perform the role we have been for most of the game. My Summoner should still be viable as main summoner whether I am summoning many pets, one powerful pet or some form of effect, like a Shroud of Darkness or Poison Cloud.
Changing secondary archetype doesn't happen at the drop of a hat, like in WoW. If I'm a Paladin, I should not have to change to Guardian just to succeed as main tank in a raid. Raid content should not be determining my choice to change secondary archetype. Just as raid content should not be determining whether I change from Necromancer to Beast Master or Conjurer.
You've got a few points here, and as they are made well enough I'll actually address them.
Player skill is a huge factor. But as players can change classes - either by rolling a second character or in the case of tank/X, performing an as yet undefined task to switch secondary class. A skilled Guardian will be a better tank on competitive raid content than a skilled Paladin.
In some raids and guilds, people will not have the same care of wanting things to be the best they can be. In those raids and guilds, taking along a Paladin may well be what is done if that is the character that their most skilled tank player uses. However, if you are a main tank of a competitive raid guild, you wouldn't even think twice if there was a need for you to change class - even if that meant rolling a new character and leveling it up (I've done this a number of times).
This is the dedication that competitive raiders display that puts them at the top end. The very fact someone is arguing that they shouldn't have to be class "X" to perform a role in a competitive raid tells me with absolute certainty that this player will not be in a competitive raid at all anyway, as they do not have the dedication required.
Such a player may well be a main tank for a raid that is not acting in the same competitive level, and may even be able to do so on a Paladin. However, as said, that is outside of the scope of what I am talking about in this thread, and would likely require things like over-buffing, over-healing, side-tanks and the like. Measures which sometimes work, but inherently slow the raid down.
---
A WoW clone in terms of classes is any game in which final class choice doesn't matter.
---
There absolutely will be people reaching level 30, picking a subclass and then finding they are unable to do what they had been doing in game up to that point. An example already given in this thread is a summoner - they will have spent 30 levels using a pet and playing as a fairly generic (all things considered) summoner, and then depending on subclass suddenly find themselves without an actual pet to fight with them. This is a massive change in what that player can do, and in the way they play the character.
With tanks though, I don't believe you will find yourself tanking to level 30 and then unable to tank after selecting a sub-class. I firmly believe all tank/X classes (and maybe even 2 X/tank classes) will be able to tank level appropriate group content, world events and PvP just fine. Since there is no competitive PvE raid content sub level 50, no one will be able to say "I was main tanking competitive raids all the way up to 50, and now I suddenly can't".
---
Now to reiterate my position, first on people then on content.
Competitive raiders will be what class is best able to perform their role. These people will not say "but I shouldn't have to", they are happy to do what is needed by the raid as a unit. People that are not happy to do this will never be put in a situation where it is something they may have to do, so the people that do not want to do this need not worry about it at all.
Yet dynamic content means you dont know your required role.
Content in AoC will be designed with a top end that a very small portion of the population complete while relevant- as per Stevens comments. He has said this is so that all players have something to aspire to. It is the content that the people above will be focused on - and both by definition and by design it is a small proportion of the population of the game.
Relevance ?
Steven has said raid composition is something he wants to put a focus back on (raid composition being what classes are in the raid, whom they are buffing and how they are all interacting - not just having a checklist of classes present). Based on that, specific classes will be important in raids in many positions, and no one position in a raid is more important (from a class standpoint) than the main tank.
No one is arguing about the role of the tank. Merely the type of the tank being viable.
Edit; you can disagree with any points made, that is fine. I feel I have made my point several times in this thread - however, if there is anything you feel I have not addresses, ask it and I will happily address it from my point of view.
I get your angle. You come at it from specific tool for a specific job. In the right context, one tool will be better than another. But that is on the proviso you know what the context will be to establish the right tool for the right job.
Devoid of context in which to place the type of tank, the only thing left is to compare the tank types one vs one. If none of them offer any advantage without knowing context, then the choice cant be made. All are viable.
You say you will always bring a penetration tank if you dont know the content. But then you may find yourself in a context will <insert your tank type of choice> actually woudl have performed better in the situation you are on. So you made a pre-emptive choice..but it was the wrong one. And you have no idea how many of those choices will or will not be the wrong one.
Specific tool for specific job.
That is about it.
Guardian is the multi-tool tank in terms of raids. It has everything a raid tank needs, being mitigation, HP and hate control, and little of what a raid tank doesn't need, DPS, self healing, utility, crowd control. A raid tank doesn't need these things because the raid has other players dedicated to those actions.
Now, if I don't know the context of the encounter, I am going to take my multi-tool in every time. My more specific tools (tanks with better mitigation of a given type - ie magic, or tanks with better hate control of a given type - ie AE hate) will only ever get used if I know I will need that specific tool at that specific time.
If I have no context, I won't use a specialist tool.
If content is random to the point where each pull is totally different, I won't even bring along specialist tools.
Fortunately, I am not of the belief that raid content in general will be that random.
If a Nightshield likes to use Bulwark augmented with Caltrops, a Shadow Guardian should able to stack that effect with Caltrops augmented by Bulwark. And that should be just as effective as a Guardian augmenting Bulwark with Bulwark and an Assassin supporting the Guardian with Caltrops augmented with Caltrops.
If your opinions are based on this being how ability augmentation works, I think we may have found the root cause of why we disagree.
You don't take a tank ability and directly augment it with an ability from your secondary class. You take an ability and pick one of three augments it has that have the flavor and context of your secondary role to it.
A caltrop ability likely won't have bulwark as a way to augment it. Rather, a shadow guardian may have the ability to have caltrops that last longer, or caltrops that generate hate, or that spread over a wider area.
This is the type of thing we can expect - not simply mashing two abilities from different classes together.
If a Nightshield likes to use Bulwark augmented with Caltrops, a Shadow Guardian should able to stack that effect with Caltrops augmented by Bulwark. And that should be just as effective as a Guardian augmenting Bulwark with Bulwark and an Assassin supporting the Guardian with Caltrops augmented with Caltrops.
If your opinions are based on this being how ability augmentation works, I think we may have found the root cause of why we disagree.
You don't take a tank ability and directly augment it with an ability from your secondary class. You take an ability and pick one of three augments it has that have the flavor and context of your secondary role to it.
A caltrop ability likely won't have bulwark as a way to augment it. Rather, a shadow guardian may have the ability to have caltrops that last longer, or caltrops that generate hate, or that spread over a wider area.
This is the type of thing we can expect - not simply mashing two abilities from different classes together.
i would like to add to this:)
steven had a few examples of this, namely the rush ability from warrior.
ive readt a while ago (i think it was steven also?) that the wall ability from the tank could also be split into several smaller walls with spaces in between (keeper class i think(tank/summ)).
we will deff see some augments bring functionality changes like a war/rogue doing a stealthed rush or a bard/rogue providing temp stealth for its party or something xd
BUT, what im really interested for are the 6 religions and the augments they bring. being a deus vult guardian or a handler of holy dragon(ling)s sounds real cool:D
I think the biggest reason there is a disagreement is the idea of mitigation. Some people think of is as only a strait % damage reduction, and example is said tank takes 7% reduction to damage. That is a form of mitigation, but there are others. One example is dodge tanks, while it dose have a RNG that could go terribly wrong it also has the same chance to have it go incredibly right. Most devs understand the RNG aspect of their game so when average total mitigation is figured out the dodge tank will have more, to make up for it. The thing about the way these classes are being created they all have the same abilities, they just have a slight change to the bonus they get for the subclass. So your still getting the same basic tank it's just a different flavor to make the game more interesting.
Personally, I would love to see tanking have a high skillcap in this game. I feel like a player shouldn't be able to just sit back and rely on their healers to keep them alive, while holding aggro by spamming aggro generating abilities.
I'd like for tanking to be dynamic and challenging. A player shouldn't be able to take the majority of a bosses damage (disregarding temporary abilities that would allow you to) without dying. Tanks should need to dodge, and deflect, and do all kinds of fun stuff to make their healer's job possible.
That would make tanking more enjoyable/realistic for me, at least.
- Sikuba
What you are asking for is different versions of tanking. It shouldnt be a case of 'or this' but a case of 'and this' You imply you want to kill traditional styles rather than allow new ones too
I wouldn't say that I want to kill traditional styles, necessarily. Tanks should still primarily be the strong, sturdy defenders who protect allies and have a higher ability to sustain damage. But I also think that there should be more to it than that.
In my opinion, different tanks' sub-classes should have different styles of tanking, styles which can be more or less beneficial depending on the type of adversary. For example, a Guardian might have more of a traditional tank style, whereas a Nightshield might focus more on dodging and kiting, as well as other forms of damage mitigation.
That's what I was trying to say - I apologize if I was unclear at all. I just want for tanks to have the opportunity to be a bit more than a meat-shield.
I think the biggest reason there is a disagreement is the idea of mitigation. Some people think of is as only a strait % damage reduction, and example is said tank takes 7% reduction to damage. That is a form of mitigation, but there are others. One example is dodge tanks, while it dose have a RNG that could go terribly wrong it also has the same chance to have it go incredibly right. Most devs understand the RNG aspect of their game so when average total mitigation is figured out the dodge tank will have more, to make up for it. The thing about the way these classes are being created they all have the same abilities, they just have a slight change to the bonus they get for the subclass. So your still getting the same basic tank it's just a different flavor to make the game more interesting.
mitigation might be split in the game tho, magic and phys mitigation could work separately. having said that aswell, we dont know if fire and ice will get their own resistance modifiers either,or even what elements might be used or not at all
but yea, the current lack of additional info/examples makes it quite easy to get a disagreement started:)
Personally, I would love to see tanking have a high skillcap in this game. I feel like a player shouldn't be able to just sit back and rely on their healers to keep them alive, while holding aggro by spamming aggro generating abilities.
I'd like for tanking to be dynamic and challenging. A player shouldn't be able to take the majority of a bosses damage (disregarding temporary abilities that would allow you to) without dying. Tanks should need to dodge, and deflect, and do all kinds of fun stuff to make their healer's job possible.
That would make tanking more enjoyable/realistic for me, at least.
- Sikuba
What you are asking for is different versions of tanking. It shouldnt be a case of 'or this' but a case of 'and this' You imply you want to kill traditional styles rather than allow new ones too
I wouldn't say that I want to kill traditional styles, necessarily. Tanks should still primarily be the strong, sturdy defenders who protect allies and have a higher ability to sustain damage. But I also think that there should be more to it than that.
In my opinion, different tanks' sub-classes should have different styles of tanking, styles which can be more or less beneficial depending on the type of adversary. For example, a Guardian might have more of a traditional tank style, whereas a Nightshield might focus more on dodging and kiting, as well as other forms of damage mitigation.
That's what I was trying to say - I apologize if I was unclear at all. I just want for tanks to have the opportunity to be a bit more than a meat-shield.
- Sikuba
if i remember correctly, steven said that ppl will be able to play the way they want to play, its not at all unlikely that we will see some interesting and unique builds. i would love to see an argent juggling buffs through its abilities, or nightshield using a cover ability that grants temp stealth or a vapor form for that ally:D
i hope we get some moar info soon on both tanks and summoners xd
I'm sorry to say this, but everyone seems to overestimate what the secondary classes will provide in terms of game play.
It's not my intention to be the pessimist in the room, we just need to balance our expectations.
Indeed, it would be awesome to have different types of tanking based on the subclass, e.g. sentinels being ranged tanks, brood wardens being able to tank using pets, spellstones doing mainly magic damage or casting spells in order to tank, etc.
...but I believe this is not going to be the case. The least amount of variation we could get is a +5 magic armor for spellstones, +10 ranged defense for sentinels and some small damage reduction when your pet is up for brood wardens (or just reduced damage when having aggro from more than 3 enemies, making him a swarm tank).
Everything added onto this (like a small change in some abilities), that most likely isn't going to matter too much except in extremely specific cases (that you probably WON'T encounter in raids), is just going to be flavor.
Why do I believe this? It takes an incredible amount of work and requires a large amount of subsystems to be in place and balanced at the same time (we want all tanking classes to be effective, don't we?!). It's like recreating tanking, from scratch, at least 8 times, then balancing all of them in all possible situations. This is going to take several months at least and I don't think they have this amount of time. My only hope regarding this is a tanking-related expansion at some point.
Coming back to the discussion, what I would NOT want to see is needing many gear sets just to be able to kill certain bosses (especially in raids). Remember the frost/nature resist tanking gear for SSC in the Burning Crusade anyone? I for one don't want another Hydross.
I understand where you're coming from and would like to mention that I was just talking a bit about something that I would enjoy seeing, not necessarily what I expect them to do. But at the same time, the devs have said that the current combat system is only at about 25% or less of what they intend it to be.
As far as I'm aware, none of the sub-classes have been demonstrated in any available video, so we really have no idea the scope to which implementing a secondary class will change the play-style of the original. I would like to mention, however, that we do know that sub-classes will possess abilities from both the primary and secondary classes.
I think the biggest reason there is a disagreement is the idea of mitigation. Some people think of is as only a strait % damage reduction, and example is said tank takes 7% reduction to damage. That is a form of mitigation, but there are others. One example is dodge tanks, while it dose have a RNG that could go terribly wrong it also has the same chance to have it go incredibly right. Most devs understand the RNG aspect of their game so when average total mitigation is figured out the dodge tank will have more, to make up for it. The thing about the way these classes are being created they all have the same abilities, they just have a slight change to the bonus they get for the subclass. So your still getting the same basic tank it's just a different flavor to make the game more interesting.
Mitigation is reducing the severity of a hit. This is both the effect in MMO's and the actual definition of the word "mitigate".
Avoidance is the chance to dodge an attack (can be a passive stat, an active mechanic of a mixture of both).
These two things are not the same, and I've already gone in to examples in this thread as to why one is far better in a raid context than the other. They can be balanced for group content, for sure, but in a raid setting the only way to balance it is to specifically design encounters that require avoidance tanking over mitigation - a viable option, but only for select encounters as it would negate any non-mitigation tank from being able to tank the content.
If a Nightshield likes to use Bulwark augmented with Caltrops, a Shadow Guardian should able to stack that effect with Caltrops augmented by Bulwark. And that should be just as effective as a Guardian augmenting Bulwark with Bulwark and an Assassin supporting the Guardian with Caltrops augmented with Caltrops.
If your opinions are based on this being how ability augmentation works, I think we may have found the root cause of why we disagree.
You don't take a tank ability and directly augment it with an ability from your secondary class. You take an ability and pick one of three augments it has that have the flavor and context of your secondary role to it.
A caltrop ability likely won't have bulwark as a way to augment it. Rather, a shadow guardian may have the ability to have caltrops that last longer, or caltrops that generate hate, or that spread over a wider area.
This is the type of thing we can expect - not simply mashing two abilities from different classes together.
Except what I stated is precisely what happens. We are able to augment a primary ability with one of three abilities from our secondary archetype. The common example being Fighter/Mage augmenting Rush with Teleport.
Augmenting Caltrops with Bulwark would most likely change Caltrops similarly to how augments for Summoner may result in summoning something other than pets. So, yeah, it may very well be that augmenting Caltrops with Bulwark will have the same effective result as augmenting Caltrops with Caltrops. The target will be impeded for the same length of time. The Shadow Guardian's Caltrops probably won't look like an Assassin's Caltrops. An Assasassin's Caltrops/Caltrops probably won't look like a Rogue's Caltrops.
I don't think I quite said simply mashing two abilities together. I've given the example before of a Nightmancer summoning a Poison Cloud or Shroud of Darkness instead of a pet. As the result of augmenting a Summoner's pet abilities.
I think the biggest reason there is a disagreement is the idea of mitigation. Some people think of is as only a strait % damage reduction, and example is said tank takes 7% reduction to damage. That is a form of mitigation, but there are others. One example is dodge tanks, while it dose have a RNG that could go terribly wrong it also has the same chance to have it go incredibly right. Most devs understand the RNG aspect of their game so when average total mitigation is figured out the dodge tank will have more, to make up for it. The thing about the way these classes are being created they all have the same abilities, they just have a slight change to the bonus they get for the subclass. So your still getting the same basic tank it's just a different flavor to make the game more interesting.
mitigation might be split in the game tho, magic and phys mitigation could work separately. having said that aswell, we dont know if fire and ice will get their own resistance modifiers either,or even what elements might be used or not at all
but yea, the current lack of additional info/examples makes it quite easy to get a disagreement started:)
Could have hot&dry/burning (Fire), cold&wet/slow (Water), cold&dry/fracture (Earth), hot&wet/shock (Air). Could have stab/poison, slash/bleed, cleave/disease, blunt/stun Thats 4+4 specialist aspects of physical and magical damage as stated. All of which require specialist defence.
The way I look at it, the most enjoyable long term game balance between class balance and individuality goes something like this:
Every class gets broken down into 5 categories: HP, Mitigation, Avoidance, DPS, Utility (Healing, CC, Buff, Debuff, etc.). All on a scale from 1-5. Your Core class gives 10 points (predetermined by the Devs), your secondary class gives 5 points (predetermined by the Devs), and your gear can give up to 3 points (Your choice).
Since we are talking tanking, lets look at the tank base: (all conjecture)
This shows that by doubling down on tanking you loose your flexibility in order to gain dominance in a single area.
Now, lets say 'High End' raiding is broken down into 5 Tiers that constantly rotate as new content comes out. In order to Main Tank in Tier 1 you need to have: One level 4 and one level 3 tanking ability (HP/Mitigation/Avoidance). All 3 tanks are capable of walking into Tier 1 'High End' content and tank with no specialized gear.
Tier 2 requires: Two Rank 4s, or One Rank 5 and One Rank 3. Only Guardians can walk into these raids and MT without specialized gear, but the NB and SB are both easily within reach with a couple item drops.
Tier 3 requires: Three Rank 4s, or One Rank 5 and One Rank 4. Again, Guardians can walk into here with minimal specialized gear and operate, barely. NBs and SBs need a bit of specialization, to hold up.
Tier 4 and 5, etc etc. At the highest end raids only a Guardian spec'd to tank should be able to (with an unknown group of people) handle a raid boss. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean the other tanks aren't viable if geared to fit with their personalized raid group. It just means you need to compensate elsewhere. Say a healer that is spec'd to level 6 in utility (heals or wards) to make up for the missing 1 level the SB/NM need. Or a crazy pure healer that is spec'd to heal/ward up to level 8 of 5 to compensate and can pull a weak or DPS spec'd tank through the fire. This is, after all, supposed to be a game about community. Lets make content and classes viable by leaning on others in our tight knit community and a plethora of options, rather than trying to play a strict numbers game saying all tanks DPS needs to be within 5% of each other, all tanks mitigation needs to be within 5% of each other, etc etc (not that anyone here has said that, its just what happened with FF14 and its why I stopped playing).
All of this of course doesn't account for actual event scripting and building events around the classes strengths and weaknesses either. Which I also hope happens.
Nice idea but it comes with the problem of Veterans being far superior to new players and generates a wall between parts of the community through progress. I would rather have new players start with a generic but viable build. Although this does not prevent a tiered distribution system if desired. This demonstrates how progress can mean specialisation/playstyle rather than power seperation. Also demonstrating how a tank can have varying play styles.
ie. Tier 0 = 4 points variation above or below 50/100 Tier 1 = 8 points variation above or below 50/100 Tier 2 = 16 points variation above or below 50/100 Tier 3 = 32 points variation above or below 50/100 Tier 4 = 64 points variation above or below 50/100 DPS = +degen/s ~ offensive power HMPS = -regen/s ~ defensive resist DMPS = -degen/s ~ offensive resist HPS = +regen/s ~ defensive power The variation distribution of all points must sum to 0.... (Tier0/Tier1/Tier2/Tier3/Tier4)
Tier 4 - Tank E Hard Counter vs Hybrid Datum DPS Net = 82 - 50 = +32 Tank Counter HMPS Net = 18 - 50 = +32 Hybrid DMPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0 HPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0 Hybrid suffers 32 dps additional damage but removes 32 hps regen rate from his opponent to effectively do +32 dps net. Stalemate. Balance.
Tier 4 - Tank E vs Hybrid Datum DPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0 HMPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0 DMPS Net = 82 - 50 = +32 Tank HPS Net = 18 - 50 = +32 Hybrid Hybrid does 32 dps less damage but opponent has 32 hps less regen rate. Stalemate. Balance.
Tank/ Tank = Most Consistency, Slight Versatility ( in regards to being a Tank )
Primary-Tank ( Tank/ x ) = More Consistency. Less Versatility .
In other words, Slightly less Consistency than a Tank/ Tank, but slightly more versatility than a Tank/ Tank
Secondary- Tank ( x/ Tank ) = Lesser Consistency, Most Versatility
Secondary-Tanks will either be Primarily a DPS or Healer
It's one way of looking at the spectrum, sure.
Guardian will be the tankiest Tank.
Warden, Spellshield and Keeper might also focus on controlling the battlefield in addition to holding aggro.
Knight, Nightshield and Spellshield might be focused on DPS in addition to aggro or control.
Paladin and Argent will probably be focused on healing and buffing the group in addition to holding aggro and control.
Secondary Tanks will be supporting the Primary Tanks.
What I'm really curious about is:
If you have a Paladin acting as main tank, how well can an Apostle's augments complement the Paladin's abilities?
If an Apostle hits a Paladin with Righteous Blessing augmented by Hatred, does that have the same result for aggro as a Guardian augmenting Hatred with Hatred?
Or would the Apostle's Hatred be self-only?
I am SOOOO glad i went back through this thread and saw your reply @Dygz ..
This is not at all how I would characterize these Archetypes ( or Classes )
" hey Guys, this Boss is best beaten with a Long-Range tank, anybody got an Alt for that ? "
" Sure m8, I'll switch out for my Alt, give me sec "
... I don't want this scenario to happen ... ever ...
I certainly don't want Secondary-Tanks supporting Primary-Tanks
If a group of friends have to resort to using Secondary-Tanks for a Raid boss then so be it. It'll just have a harder " learning-curve " to pull-it-off
I get that Hybrid tanks ( Primary/ x ) are suppose to take that role ... but Secondary Hybrids should be able to do it too ... only that it'll be harder to do
In short, I actually want the Secondary-Tanks to gain Aggro through via Massive Dmg outputs & some Tank-Aggro mechanics via regular attack + the actual Tanking ( secondary ) abilities along side - i literally want the Secondary tanks to able to challenge the Aggro of the Primary-Tanks & Pure-Tanks ... only that it be easier for Pure-Tanks to gain Aggro and Primary-Tanks somewhere in the middle
If an NPC target is taking Big-hits from a Secondary-Tank ... the NPC should naturally want to change target to Player who's dealing those Big Hits ... and if that same Player is also a Secondary Tank, it'll be like a Combination of
DMG Aggro + Tank Aggro = Overall Aggro
Duly note ... because of those same Secondary-Tank aspects .... the DMG + DMG Aggro won't succeed a Pure-DPS . ... and the Rate of the Tank-Aggro will increase slower than Primary-Tank & Pure-Tank aggro to compensate the aggro build-up
The way how you described it @Dygz ... it does sound like it'll be stale & boring
In fact, i envision combat completely different from that
I think what @cheap is trying to say is their is more than just penetration mitigation to tanking. 1. Resist damage. 2. Absorb damage. 3. Deflect damage 4. Refect damage 5. Fragment damage 6. Evade damage
Arguably those that return that damage or absorb energy from it would be far more OP than someone who simply resists it. Aka resists physical damage (note zero magical damage resistance too).
I'd also thought of Tanking with more aspects that that - that sounds very Basic to me
Comments
Balanced means there is no best.
/shrugs
First of all, utility doesn't change the makeup of a raid - not from the perspective of a raider that has spent 10+ years raiding in games with utility. The concept is only really new to MMO players that have only played WoW or WoW-clones.
Utility is versatile by it's nature. If content calls for a specific tank, you use that tank and then buff appropriately. If the content doesn't call for a specific tank, you use your main tank and buff appropriately.
Guilds or raids that are less focused on raiding may find that they can over buff an under performing tank to get it to perform in an adequate manner, but I have not spend any time in this thread talking about less focused guilds or raids.
If Intrepid attempt to balance all classes perfectly is all aspects, AoC will become nothing more than a bland WoW-clone with nodes and castles.
I would concede a little to your point if it weren't for the fact that - should you start a character as a tank wanting to run group content and then finding yourself suddenly the main tank of a raid guild, you can change class to better suit your new role if you so chose. Conversely, should you then chose to spend most of your time soloing instead of grouping, you are able to change to a class that is better suited to that, as well.
WoW clone would be having just one of the sub-classes of an archetype be objectively OP.
You should not have to change your subclass in order to be the main tank of a top end raid. Main tank for top end raids should, in general, be viable for any of the Tank sub-classes. Since the Primary Archetype is Tank.
We should not reach level 30 or Level 50 and suddenly find that we are no longer able to perform the role we have been for most of the game.
My Summoner should still be viable as main summoner whether I am summoning many pets, one powerful pet or some form of effect, like a Shroud of Darkness or Poison Cloud.
Changing secondary archetype doesn't happen at the drop of a hat, like in WoW.
If I'm a Paladin, I should not have to change to Guardian just to succeed as main tank in a raid.
Raid content should not be determining my choice to change secondary archetype.
Just as raid content should not be determining whether I change from Necromancer to Beast Master or Conjurer.
Player skill is a huge factor. But as players can change classes - either by rolling a second character or in the case of tank/X, performing an as yet undefined task to switch secondary class. A skilled Guardian will be a better tank on competitive raid content than a skilled Paladin.
In some raids and guilds, people will not have the same care of wanting things to be the best they can be. In those raids and guilds, taking along a Paladin may well be what is done if that is the character that their most skilled tank player uses. However, if you are a main tank of a competitive raid guild, you wouldn't even think twice if there was a need for you to change class - even if that meant rolling a new character and leveling it up (I've done this a number of times).
This is the dedication that competitive raiders display that puts them at the top end. The very fact someone is arguing that they shouldn't have to be class "X" to perform a role in a competitive raid tells me with absolute certainty that this player will not be in a competitive raid at all anyway, as they do not have the dedication required.
Such a player may well be a main tank for a raid that is not acting in the same competitive level, and may even be able to do so on a Paladin. However, as said, that is outside of the scope of what I am talking about in this thread, and would likely require things like over-buffing, over-healing, side-tanks and the like. Measures which sometimes work, but inherently slow the raid down.
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A WoW clone in terms of classes is any game in which final class choice doesn't matter.
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There absolutely will be people reaching level 30, picking a subclass and then finding they are unable to do what they had been doing in game up to that point. An example already given in this thread is a summoner - they will have spent 30 levels using a pet and playing as a fairly generic (all things considered) summoner, and then depending on subclass suddenly find themselves without an actual pet to fight with them. This is a massive change in what that player can do, and in the way they play the character.
With tanks though, I don't believe you will find yourself tanking to level 30 and then unable to tank after selecting a sub-class. I firmly believe all tank/X classes (and maybe even 2 X/tank classes) will be able to tank level appropriate group content, world events and PvP just fine. Since there is no competitive PvE raid content sub level 50, no one will be able to say "I was main tanking competitive raids all the way up to 50, and now I suddenly can't".
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Now to reiterate my position, first on people then on content.
Competitive raiders will be what class is best able to perform their role. These people will not say "but I shouldn't have to", they are happy to do what is needed by the raid as a unit. People that are not happy to do this will never be put in a situation where it is something they may have to do, so the people that do not want to do this need not worry about it at all.
Content in AoC will be designed with a top end that a very small portion of the population complete while relevant- as per Stevens comments. He has said this is so that all players have something to aspire to. It is the content that the people above will be focused on - and both by definition and by design it is a small proportion of the population of the game.
Steven has said raid composition is something he wants to put a focus back on (raid composition being what classes are in the raid, whom they are buffing and how they are all interacting - not just having a checklist of classes present). Based on that, specific classes will be important in raids in many positions, and no one position in a raid is more important (from a class standpoint) than the main tank.
Edit; you can disagree with any points made, that is fine. I feel I have made my point several times in this thread - however, if there is anything you feel I have not addresses, ask it and I will happily address it from my point of view.
Devoid of context in which to place the type of tank, the only thing left is to compare the tank types one vs one. If none of them offer any advantage without knowing context, then the choice cant be made. All are viable.
You say you will always bring a penetration tank if you dont know the content. But then you may find yourself in a context will <insert your tank type of choice> actually woudl have performed better in the situation you are on. So you made a pre-emptive choice..but it was the wrong one. And you have no idea how many of those choices will or will not be the wrong one.
I'd like for tanking to be dynamic and challenging. A player shouldn't be able to take the majority of a bosses damage (disregarding temporary abilities that would allow you to) without dying. Tanks should need to dodge, and deflect, and do all kinds of fun stuff to make their healer's job possible.
That would make tanking more enjoyable/realistic for me, at least.
- Sikuba
It shouldnt be a case of 'or this' but a case of 'and this'
You imply you want to kill traditional styles rather than allow new ones too
Every class gets broken down into 5 categories: HP, Mitigation, Avoidance, DPS, Utility (Healing, CC, Buff, Debuff, etc.). All on a scale from 1-5. Your Core class gives 10 points (predetermined by the Devs), your secondary class gives 5 points (predetermined by the Devs), and your gear can give up to 3 points (Your choice).
Since we are talking tanking, lets look at the tank base: (all conjecture)
-Tank-
HP- 3
Mitigation- 3
Avoidance- 2
DPS- 1
Utility- 1
Add in the Secondary Classes: (again, all conjecture)
-Guardian- -Nightblade- -Spellblade(I think)-
HP- 4 3 3
Mitigation- 5 3 4
Avoidance- 3 4 3
DPS- 1 3 3
Utility- 2 2 2
This shows that by doubling down on tanking you loose your flexibility in order to gain dominance in a single area.
Now, lets say 'High End' raiding is broken down into 5 Tiers that constantly rotate as new content comes out. In order to Main Tank in Tier 1 you need to have: One level 4 and one level 3 tanking ability (HP/Mitigation/Avoidance). All 3 tanks are capable of walking into Tier 1 'High End' content and tank with no specialized gear.
Tier 2 requires: Two Rank 4s, or One Rank 5 and One Rank 3. Only Guardians can walk into these raids and MT without specialized gear, but the NB and SB are both easily within reach with a couple item drops.
Tier 3 requires: Three Rank 4s, or One Rank 5 and One Rank 4. Again, Guardians can walk into here with minimal specialized gear and operate, barely. NBs and SBs need a bit of specialization, to hold up.
Tier 4 and 5, etc etc. At the highest end raids only a Guardian spec'd to tank should be able to (with an unknown group of people) handle a raid boss. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean the other tanks aren't viable if geared to fit with their personalized raid group. It just means you need to compensate elsewhere. Say a healer that is spec'd to level 6 in utility (heals or wards) to make up for the missing 1 level the SB/NM need. Or a crazy pure healer that is spec'd to heal/ward up to level 8 of 5 to compensate and can pull a weak or DPS spec'd tank through the fire. This is, after all, supposed to be a game about community. Lets make content and classes viable by leaning on others in our tight knit community and a plethora of options, rather than trying to play a strict numbers game saying all tanks DPS needs to be within 5% of each other, all tanks mitigation needs to be within 5% of each other, etc etc (not that anyone here has said that, its just what happened with FF14 and its why I stopped playing).
All of this of course doesn't account for actual event scripting and building events around the classes strengths and weaknesses either. Which I also hope happens.
In Ashes, savvy players should supporting their choice of sub-class with gear and with racial and social augments - in addition to their sub-class augments.
And the non-healer members of the group should also be able to support that playstyle. Either with secondary Tanks, or even with secondary Mages using cc, like Ice Prison to stack with Bulwark or secondary Rogues using Caltrop to stack with Bulwark.
I was trained by a premiere PvP combat group in Wizard101. I taught them how to maximize the chances of getting the combat abilities they wanted in their pets.
They taught me how to use my abilities to augment theirs for maximum effect.
I became surprised when people started to call for help defeating bosses I had easily soloed, but as I helped them I realized they didn't know how to stack their abilities.
That's the way it should be in Ashes.
Again similar to fighting in Log Horizon.
People should learn to support the abilities people in the group/raid like to use, rather than trying to enforce cookie-cutter configs.
And the content should not be designed to rely on cookie-cutter builds, party configs or strategies for success.
If a Nightshield likes to use Bulwark augmented with Caltrops, a Shadow Guardian should able to stack that effect with Caltrops augmented by Bulwark.
And that should be just as effective as a Guardian augmenting Bulwark with Bulwark and an Assassin supporting the Guardian with Caltrops augmented with Caltrops.
And then a Spellstone can add suppport with a Fireball augmented with Bulwark.
Tank subclass can also evade damage or self-heal. A Paladin might augment Cover with Rightous Blessing.
Of course, there will be conservative elitist groups who will demand that everyone conforms to their spreadsheets.
But, that should be the only way to defeat content. Even top end raid content.
The key to defeating top end raid content should not be designing Tank/Tank to be the only viable main tank for top end raid gear.
The key to success should be knowing how the members of your raid like to play and then syncing everyone's abilities to stack maximum effect with the subclasses available in the group.
That is about it.
Guardian is the multi-tool tank in terms of raids. It has everything a raid tank needs, being mitigation, HP and hate control, and little of what a raid tank doesn't need, DPS, self healing, utility, crowd control. A raid tank doesn't need these things because the raid has other players dedicated to those actions.
Now, if I don't know the context of the encounter, I am going to take my multi-tool in every time. My more specific tools (tanks with better mitigation of a given type - ie magic, or tanks with better hate control of a given type - ie AE hate) will only ever get used if I know I will need that specific tool at that specific time.
If I have no context, I won't use a specialist tool.
If content is random to the point where each pull is totally different, I won't even bring along specialist tools.
Fortunately, I am not of the belief that raid content in general will be that random.
You don't take a tank ability and directly augment it with an ability from your secondary class. You take an ability and pick one of three augments it has that have the flavor and context of your secondary role to it.
A caltrop ability likely won't have bulwark as a way to augment it. Rather, a shadow guardian may have the ability to have caltrops that last longer, or caltrops that generate hate, or that spread over a wider area.
This is the type of thing we can expect - not simply mashing two abilities from different classes together.
steven had a few examples of this, namely the rush ability from warrior.
ive readt a while ago (i think it was steven also?) that the wall ability from the tank could also be split into several smaller walls with spaces in between (keeper class i think(tank/summ)).
we will deff see some augments bring functionality changes like a war/rogue doing a stealthed rush or a bard/rogue providing temp stealth for its party or something xd
BUT, what im really interested for are the 6 religions and the augments they bring. being a deus vult guardian or a handler of holy dragon(ling)s sounds real cool:D
In my opinion, different tanks' sub-classes should have different styles of tanking, styles which can be more or less beneficial depending on the type of adversary. For example, a Guardian might have more of a traditional tank style, whereas a Nightshield might focus more on dodging and kiting, as well as other forms of damage mitigation.
That's what I was trying to say - I apologize if I was unclear at all. I just want for tanks to have the opportunity to be a bit more than a meat-shield.
- Sikuba
but yea, the current lack of additional info/examples makes it quite easy to get a disagreement started:)
i would love to see an argent juggling buffs through its abilities, or nightshield using a cover ability that grants temp stealth or a vapor form for that ally:D
i hope we get some moar info soon on both tanks and summoners xd
It's not my intention to be the pessimist in the room, we just need to balance our expectations.
Indeed, it would be awesome to have different types of tanking based on the subclass, e.g. sentinels being ranged tanks, brood wardens being able to tank using pets, spellstones doing mainly magic damage or casting spells in order to tank, etc.
...but I believe this is not going to be the case. The least amount of variation we could get is a +5 magic armor for spellstones, +10 ranged defense for sentinels and some small damage reduction when your pet is up for brood wardens (or just reduced damage when having aggro from more than 3 enemies, making him a swarm tank).
Everything added onto this (like a small change in some abilities), that most likely isn't going to matter too much except in extremely specific cases (that you probably WON'T encounter in raids), is just going to be flavor.
Why do I believe this? It takes an incredible amount of work and requires a large amount of subsystems to be in place and balanced at the same time (we want all tanking classes to be effective, don't we?!). It's like recreating tanking, from scratch, at least 8 times, then balancing all of them in all possible situations. This is going to take several months at least and I don't think they have this amount of time. My only hope regarding this is a tanking-related expansion at some point.
Coming back to the discussion, what I would NOT want to see is needing many gear sets just to be able to kill certain bosses (especially in raids). Remember the frost/nature resist tanking gear for SSC in the Burning Crusade anyone?
I understand where you're coming from and would like to mention that I was just talking a bit about something that I would enjoy seeing, not necessarily what I expect them to do. But at the same time, the devs have said that the current combat system is only at about 25% or less of what they intend it to be.
As far as I'm aware, none of the sub-classes have been demonstrated in any available video, so we really have no idea the scope to which implementing a secondary class will change the play-style of the original. I would like to mention, however, that we do know that sub-classes will possess abilities from both the primary and secondary classes.
- Sikuba
Avoidance is the chance to dodge an attack (can be a passive stat, an active mechanic of a mixture of both).
These two things are not the same, and I've already gone in to examples in this thread as to why one is far better in a raid context than the other. They can be balanced for group content, for sure, but in a raid setting the only way to balance it is to specifically design encounters that require avoidance tanking over mitigation - a viable option, but only for select encounters as it would negate any non-mitigation tank from being able to tank the content.
The common example being Fighter/Mage augmenting Rush with Teleport.
Augmenting Caltrops with Bulwark would most likely change Caltrops similarly to how augments for Summoner may result in summoning something other than pets.
So, yeah, it may very well be that augmenting Caltrops with Bulwark will have the same effective result as augmenting Caltrops with Caltrops.
The target will be impeded for the same length of time. The Shadow Guardian's Caltrops probably won't look like an Assassin's Caltrops. An Assasassin's Caltrops/Caltrops probably won't look like a Rogue's Caltrops.
I don't think I quite said simply mashing two abilities together.
I've given the example before of a Nightmancer summoning a Poison Cloud or Shroud of Darkness instead of a pet. As the result of augmenting a Summoner's pet abilities.
Could have stab/poison, slash/bleed, cleave/disease, blunt/stun
Thats 4+4 specialist aspects of physical and magical damage as stated.
All of which require specialist defence.
Nice idea but it comes with the problem of Veterans being far superior to new players and generates a wall between parts of the community through progress. I would rather have new players start with a generic but viable build. Although this does not prevent a tiered distribution system if desired. This demonstrates how progress can mean specialisation/playstyle rather than power seperation. Also demonstrating how a tank can have varying play styles.
ie.
Tier 0 = 4 points variation above or below 50/100
Tier 1 = 8 points variation above or below 50/100
Tier 2 = 16 points variation above or below 50/100
Tier 3 = 32 points variation above or below 50/100
Tier 4 = 64 points variation above or below 50/100
DPS = +degen/s ~ offensive power
HMPS = -regen/s ~ defensive resist
DMPS = -degen/s ~ offensive resist
HPS = +regen/s ~ defensive power
The variation distribution of all points must sum to 0....
(Tier0/Tier1/Tier2/Tier3/Tier4)
Hybrid Datum (Source Archetype)
DPS (0/0/0/0/0)
HMPS (0/0/0/0/0)
DMPS (0/0/0/0/0)
HPS (0/0/0/0/0)
Tier0 Stats = 50/50/50/50
Tier1 Stats = 50/50/50/50
Tier2 Stats = 50/50/50/50
Tier3 Stats = 50/50/50/50
Tier4 Stats = 50/50/50/50
Tank A (DPS is sacrificed to enable normal HMPS & HPS)
DPS (-2/-4 /-8/-16/-32)
HMPS (0/0/0/0)
DMPS (+2/+4/+8/+16/+32)
HPS (0/0/0/0)
Tier0 Stats = 48/50/52/50
Tier1 Stats = 46/50/54/50
Tier2 Stats = 42/50/58/50
Tier3 Stats = 34/50/66/50
Tier4 Stats = 18/50/82/50
Tank B (DPS & HMPS is sacrificed to enable normal HPS)
DPS (-1/-2 /-4/-8/-16)
HMPS (-1/-2 /-4/-8/-16)
DMPS (+2/+4/+8/+16/+32)
HPS (0/0/0/0)
Tier0 Stats = 49/49/52/50
Tier1 Stats = 48/48/54/50
Tier2 Stats = 46/46/58/50
Tier3 Stats = 42/42/66/50
Tier4 Stats = 34/34/82/50
Tank C (HMPS is sacrificed to enable normal DPS & HPS)
DPS (0/0/0/0)
HMPS (-2/-4 /-8/-16/-32)
DMPS (+2/+4/+8/+16/+32)
HPS (0/0/0/0)
Tier0 Stats = 50/48/52/50
Tier1 Stats = 50/46/54/50
Tier2 Stats = 50/42/58/50
Tier3 Stats = 50/34/66/50
Tier4 Stats = 50/18/82/50
Tank D (HMPS & HPS is sacrificed to enable normal DPS)
DPS (0/0/0/0)
HMPS (-1/-2 /-4/-8/-16)
DMPS (+2/+4/+8/+16/+32)
HPS (-1/-2 /-4/-8/-16)
Tier0 Stats = 50/49/52/49
Tier1 Stats = 50/48/54/48
Tier2 Stats = 50/46/58/46
Tier3 Stats = 50/42/66/42
Tier4 Stats = 50/34/82/34
Tank E (HPS is sacrificed to enable normal DPS & HMPS)
DPS (0/0/0/0)
HMPS (0/0/0/0)
DMPS (+2/+4/+8/+16/+32)
HPS (-2/-4 /-8/-16/-32)
Tier0 Stats = 50/50/52/48
Tier1 Stats = 50/50/54/46
Tier2 Stats = 50/50/58/42
Tier3 Stats = 50/50/66/34
Tier4 Stats = 50/50/82/18
Tank E Hard counter.....
DPS (+2/+4/+8/+16/+32)
HMPS (-2/-4 /-8/-16/-32)
DMPS (0/0/0/0)
HPS (0/0/0/0)
Tier0 Stats = 52/48/50/50
Tier1 Stats = 54/46/50/50
Tier2 Stats = 58/42/50/50
Tier3 Stats = 66/34/50/50
Tier4 Stats = 82/18/50/50
Tier 4 - Tank E Hard Counter vs Hybrid Datum
DPS Net = 82 - 50 = +32 Tank Counter
HMPS Net = 18 - 50 = +32 Hybrid
DMPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0
HPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0
Hybrid suffers 32 dps additional damage but removes 32 hps regen rate from his opponent to effectively do +32 dps net.
Stalemate. Balance.
Tier 4 - Tank E vs Hybrid Datum
DPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0
HMPS Net = 50 - 50 = 0
DMPS Net = 82 - 50 = +32 Tank
HPS Net = 18 - 50 = +32 Hybrid
Hybrid does 32 dps less damage but opponent has 32 hps less regen rate.
Stalemate. Balance.
I highly doubt the devs are going to design in a manner that requires the ranking you suggest.
Rune-Relic is on the right track.
This is not at all how I would characterize these Archetypes ( or Classes )
- " hey Guys, this Boss is best beaten with a Long-Range tank, anybody got an Alt for that ? "
- " Sure m8, I'll switch out for my Alt, give me sec "
... I don't want this scenario to happen ... ever ...I certainly don't want Secondary-Tanks supporting Primary-Tanks
- If a group of friends have to resort to using Secondary-Tanks for a Raid boss then so be it. It'll just have a harder " learning-curve " to pull-it-off
- I get that Hybrid tanks ( Primary/ x ) are suppose to take that role ... but Secondary Hybrids should be able to do it too ... only that it'll be harder to do
In short, I actually want the Secondary-Tanks to gain Aggro through via Massive Dmg outputs & some Tank-Aggro mechanics via regular attack + the actual Tanking ( secondary ) abilities along side - i literally want the Secondary tanks to able to challenge the Aggro of the Primary-Tanks & Pure-Tanks ... only that it be easier for Pure-Tanks to gain Aggro and Primary-Tanks somewhere in the middleThe way how you described it @Dygz ... it does sound like it'll be stale & boring
In fact, i envision combat completely different from that