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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
The best example that we have is that Secondary Clerics will only have self-heals.
So, a Paladin will not be able to be main healer or side healer, but...
A Paladin wouldn't necessarily need the main healer to heal her more than a Guardian because she will be able to self-heal.
I dunno why that seems boring to you.
Whether the NPC will naturally want to switch focus to the Shadow Guardian is irrelevant since the Guardian will have a stronger Hatred.
I expect a Shadow Guardian to use Hatred to kite an NPC rather than to tank an NPC.
The evasion Tank that will be on par with a shield Tank is the Nightshield.
Secondary Tank might not be doing much DMG at all if it's an Apostle or a Siren.
So, I don't know why you would be expecting the Secondary Tank to inherently be holding aggro due to DMG.
The whole point of having a main Tank is to hold the focus of the NPCs hate/threat.
A Secondary Tank is unlikely to be able to do that as long as a Primary Tank, in general.
When i mention the " Consistency vs Versatility " ... i'm referring to much more than what it seems - the phrase is more of a Generalization if anything else, very vague and paraphrased.
It;s suppose to unfathomably shorten all 64 Archetype Combinations
I will use a Primary-Tank Hybrid for this Example ( Primary/ x )
( It's suppose to unfathomably shorten all 64 Archetype Combinations. So the ... " x "
in this Example is vague in itself . Hence could be DPS or Heals. Thus making this difficult to try an explain )
The Amount of abilities would first need to be established - how many abilities will be accessible at launch ? Will more abilities be worked on after launch ? ( hope not )
Knowing this would give the player a general idea as to what we could expect to see
- It'll show how many effects could triggered-off after one ... " click " ? Gesture ? Button Combo ? QTE bar ?
- ( other systems would need to established first before then )
- In short, it'll show how many effects could be crammed into one ability if its a Small-Set of Abilities
- OR ... if it's a Large-Set of Abilities ... ( say ... 25+ or 20+ ) ... then it could possibly be more spread-out
- ... Or they could do a combination of Both ? Potentially striving for a HardCore-technical aspect of Combat ?
- ( re-iterating that other systems would first need to be established ... and the Customers would need to see it. If we see it )
- We can't count the PAX presentations because the Devs have specifically stated that the PAX Demos would meant to a shorten experience.
- They probably removed the QTE Bar to promote more positive word-of-mouth, etcc
Rather than continuing to speak of hypothetical ... here how i see the Finish-product ..- Choosing the Secondary-Archetype will be the equivalent to a "Worlds of a Difference " . The gameplay will be noticable diverse. The Uniqueness will be furthered by the individual player's choices.
- I'm neutral about Levels vs No-Levels .... but if Levels are a thing ( i think it is ) ... Players at the highest levels will NOT be wearing the Exact same Set's of Gear. Rather, Each Level should a vast Armor-Set that can be found, crafted, traded, and other sorts of Magic
- Combat will be fluid - Tab-targetting being in used whereas needed , but not over used. To where a player will have a full-set of Tab-targetting Abilities ( looks at Steven << ) ... because everyone knows that Tab-Targetting is stupendously easier than Action-Combat ...
( you stand in one-spot and you Kite away at the Target (NPC ro Player-Opponent) and spam the auto-follow attacks. However i am glad you mentioned that Telegraphs will not be used in Ashes. Where as Action-Combat ... their issue is that they spamm Area Damage like its nothing ( looks at you GW2 ) .... alongside the NPC's A.I. being **** and not ever bringing a Challenge .... ( looks at you BDO ). And many of them share the same issues )continuing
a mixture of HardCore Elements ... but ( somewhat ) friendly to be introduced to future-new players.
Consistency
Versatility
- options
- movement speed, Dex,"Situational Abilities " , " Hax Abilities " , placement , avoid/ dodging/ evading, " Disrupting " , etc ...
Describing it would be impossible. I think a " premise " would have to be presented first ( all of the text above ... ) in order to try an envision the whole thing ... because i'm still hoping for " HitBoxes " to still be a thing via making use of the Air.. an attack Coming above and the Physics involved in the Hit. How would the Character's model behave ?There was other things i wanted to mention but ... well, so far it's kinda worrisome to thing about the worse-case scenario . Really hoping other things are revealed soon
For Secondary-Tank Hybrid
- Tank-Aggro increasing at Slower Rate compared to Pure-Tank & Primary-Tank Hybrid
- DMG-Aggro increasing at a Higher rate compared to the Pure-Tank & Primary
- DMG Aggro will not Succeed the Pure-DPS or Primary-DPS Archetype
These two imaginary bars ( that will not be visible on the U.I. ) will be taking into consideration of the NPC's A.I.However, the Tank-Aggro will be 1st Priority for NPC A.I.
Thus, the Pure-Tank & Primary-Tank will ... 6.5/10 maintain Aggro
But the Secondary-Tank could steal Aggro via 3.5/10
... depending on how that Aggro is being executed
( which is like trying to identify a Variable without having all of the other Parts of the Problem to solve it )
I look at it this way ... if there was a team of only DPS ( R.I.P. Team
And i say that your idea will be Boring because ... well it sounds like something that many have seen before in other MMOs. Really it doesn't turn-out that way either
( or at least that's how i see it )
In short ... with the introduction of Hybrid Archetypes ... i really think that the " Norm " can be re-imagined - and Intrepid got the Tools and the Talent to do so ... just hoping its not pushing that Budget though :0
Sorry for the long post btw ,,, i tried to wrap-up many things I've mentioned before in other Threads ... all in one post ... think i got a " little " carried-away ... thank god i stopped
For example, if there was an enemy with single target - high damage attacks, a Brood Warden would have an advantage by using multiple summons that tank the blows as opposed to another tank who would take the hit himself and have a much more difficult time.
Abstract statistics don't adequately measure the potential complexity or features of this system. As I said before, it's all conjecture. There are many ways to tank, heal, do damage, or crowd control. Hopefully, the various classes would utilize different kits that would employ these various aspects of combat in ways that make all of them viable, despite having different approaches and uses.
This will likely result in one class or another being better situationally, but I believe that the devs will do everything they can to make sure that every class feels valuable.
- Sikuba
Nothing wrong with a long post, it just means you believe in the topic enough to put in that much more effort. I took the first post I wrote on this site and pasted it into a word document. Times New Roman 12, doubled spaced - It was over 5 pages of writing.
You are not alone.
I just feel that with the Introduction with Secondaries really does open more gateways for more flexibility within each Archetype.
- If choosing a different Secondary Archetype could equate to a Worlds of a Difference, just think of the Diversity in the long-rong ...
- PLus the different Armor-Sets or maybe even being able to freely Mix-match Armor pieces
- Plus Crafting other Armors.
It certainly won't break the ImmersionMy response to @Endrakan in this Thread is only a small piece of the puzzle of how Unique it could be
Seems to me that a basic weapon attack should not be able to disrupt a Primary Archetype ability because it's a basic attack and a Primary Archetype should be more advanced than basic.
It should be OK if one of the Advanced Weapon combos disrupts a Rush, I suppose. Most likely, a Rush should be disrupted by something like Bulwark. Even if it's a Secondary Tank using Bulwark as an augment.
I have the feeling that you are way overthinking the combat mechanics for Ashes of Creation. These devs already experience that with EQNext. Which is why Ashes won't be doing voxels and StoryBricks.
I think we have enough info to think about and discuss Tanking in Ashes.
We don't have enough info and gameplay experience to have a meaningful discussion about how to improve the current combat game design.
We especially aren't able to meaningfully discuss how the game design should be drastically changed based on the tech, budget, deadlines and knowledge available to the devs.
We do know some Tank abilities and we do have a basic understanding of how augments are supposed to work.
A Level 1 character having an anti-high level ability that can take out a Level 4 character doesn't really make much sense because that means a Level 4 should have an anti-high level ability that could take out a Level 7... an ability which should instant-kill a Level 1.
Highly unlikely to happen.
Progression pace is subjective.
But, players have to feel that their abilities are progressing at a reasonable pace, otherwise they won't have enough motivation to keep playing the game. Best to have shallow vertical progression and wide horizontal progression. In Ashes, we can expect the vertical progression to be at a fairly typical pace, but the horizontal progression of collecting racial, religious and social augments should feel never-ending.
I expect there to be DLCs which introduce new abilities to be found in the world every three or for months - if the devs are actually able to achieve their goals.
Crafting abilities and Adventurer abilities will be completely separate. It might be that the damage for a basic Hammer attack is higher for a Blacksmith 5/Tank 1 than it is for a newbie who is just a Tank 1, simply because the Blacksmith's character level has allowed her to increase her Strength higher than is possible for newbie character.
But, most likely, Hatred for the Blacksmith would likely be on par with Hatred for the Tank because they are both Tank 1s. I imagine the Blacksmith might have access to the best gear a Level 1 Tak could wear while the newbie would have newbie gear, unless the newbie Tank 1 was really an alt or something.
The world of Ashes will be changing quite frequently so, yeah returning to an area a character visited years ago in game time should frequently be quite different; different narratives, different quest and tasks, and even different mobs.
I think Consistency will be tanking like a Tank.
I think Versatility will be Tanking like some other archetype.
Versatility will also be augmenting your Primary abilities with Tank abilities.
I doubt there will be much innovation with hitboxes since there will be plenty of tab-target abilities that will make hit boxes meaningless.
Are you saying that you could see a single Paladin fulfilling the role of both tank and healer in a group, yet it is unbalanced to you if one tank type is preferred in competitive raiding to the others?
Seems a little double standard-y to me.
If one character of any class is able to fulfill the roles of two otherwise essential components of a group, that is a serious lack of balance, and makes all other tanks and all healers redundant, as groups would simply take a paladin and 7 DPS/utility to get through the content faster.
But a Dünir Paladin should still be viable as a main tank for a top end raid boss without relying on extra help from healers because a Dünir Paladin should be able to heal themselves while sufficiently holding aggro.
By extra help from healers, I mean more healing from the raid's healers than a Ren'Kai Guardian.
So we should also expect to see Pyrai Tanks fighting differently than Ren'Kai Tanks.
And that will very likely also factor into the equations for how viable a Spellshield is as a main Tank in comparison to a Guardian as a main tank.
A Ren'Kai Spellshield might be very problematic as a main tank for a top end boss, especially compared to a Ren'Kai Guardian or a Pyrai Spellshield.
A Dünir Paladin might be just as good as a Pyrai Guardian as main tank. Especially if the Dünir Paladin is also using Religious healing augments and gear that helps her self-heal.
A Pyrai Nightshield might be using augments from the Thieves Guild to help evade damage.
A Vek Argent might be using augments from the Scholars Academy to help debuff the boss, while buffing the raid as she holds aggro.
So, yes, how people build their characters should present us with a great deal of diversity as people factor in racial, religious and social augments into their character designs. In addition to using gear that bolsters their stats and abilities.
Secondary Tank being able to rival a Primary Tank is like expecting someone who has only spoken English for 30 years to be just as good at speaking Japanese as a person who has only spoken Japanese for 30 years.
Almost all games I've played that have a Paladin give them the same ability - Lay On Hands. In many games it is the single biggest heal available to any class.
That said, I misunderstood the post of yours that I quoted.
As to a Paladin on a raid, you're still not getting the point.
Anything at all that another character on the raid *can* do, the tank *shouldn't* do. They should be spending *all* of their time and focus on doing things that *only* the tank can do, and the class that is best suited at doing things *only* the tank can do is the best raid tank.
In the time a Paladin casts a heal, a different tank class should be doing something to increase hate. If the Paladins heal also increases hate the same amount as the other tanks taunt, then the other tank should have another effect on that taunt - and if that effect is something that helps the tank do something that no one else in the raid can, then that ability is better than the heal with the taunt.
TheDygz said: I've seen it done before. Only that it was a Defensive-Abiltiy. And the gap was bigger than that
- Sevenswords did it and it wasn't spammable, it required patience and attack at the right time
- And it looked like this ( below )
Its a very old game, shut-down awhile back. Great Community imo. Despite it being a Mobile game ... it had heart. And definitely did what it could given the limited resources.I would've liked to show a Video ... but very difficult to find one showcasing the Specific Ability for a Game thats nearly 8 years old /sadface
- LvL 1 vs LvL 100
- Assuming that LvL 100 is highest LvL
- Assuming that LvL 1 is the lowest LvL
- If the opponent ( the LvL 100 ) fails attack at the right, it's Insta-death
Look at it from the LvL 1 perspective ... the Level 1 will ( presumably ) not be able to inflict any kind of DMG whatsoever against the LvL 100.LvL 1 inflicting no DMG vs LvL 100 one-shotting the LvL 1
Despite my quote of how a Level shouldn't be absolutely everything to decided a victor .... at this point the difference will be too great .... how does the Lowest level protect himself/herself ?
Think about it " realistically " ( i.e. this is a High-Fantasy MMO Game ) ... he/she may not be able to fight back ... but there ( at least ) should be a Way to defend
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/252860173?t=00h53m15s
"If you kill another player who is a non-combatant and the level disparity between you and that player is great, you will gain a higher amount of Corruption from that single kill - to the point where you should not be killing a Level 1 character if you're Level 50, otherwise that would be the equivalent of killing ten Level 50 characters perhaps."
Realistically, a Level 1 Fighter straight out of the kitchen is not going to have anti-King Arthur combat abilities.
Nor is a Level 1 Mage straight out of the stables going to have anti-Gandalf combat abilities.
Could be that way, could not depending on how the class system actually ends up working. It's all just guesswork, but it's food for thought.
The Tank with a Cleric secondary would be a Paladin. And the Paladin wouldn't be able to heal the party, necessarily, but he would have self-sustaining abilities through these augments on his primary skills.
Our class structure is:
You choose a primary class. And that primary class comes with your active abilities. And you choose from one of 8 archetypes - you have 4 martial and 4 arcane.
When, at a certain point later on [Level 30], you get to choose a secondary class. And the secondary class doesn't come with new abilities, new actives, instead it comes with augments. And these augments reflect the flavor of that archetype.
Now, you can double-down on your class and choose as your secondary the same primary class you have and that will make you more focused on what your role is and your archetype... or you can choose a different one.
Let's say for example, you're a Fighter and you have a Rush ability and you choose a Rogue as your secondary archetype and you apply the Stealth augment to your Rush skill. Well, this Stealth augment, previously you would have a target and you would charge in that direction over time and then when you reached the target you would deal x DMG and then potentially some knockdown modifier, stun, whatever.
If you choose the secondary Rogue archetype, and you apply that Stealth mechanic, when you initiate the charge, you go Stealth and then you appear when you reach the target.
So, it's kind of like a subtle change to these skills that you have from your primary class that reflect the flavor of your secondary class.
I understand your philosophy of what a main tank should and should not do.
I don't agree with your philosophy and Steven does not appear to agree with your philosophy either, according to his description of how the sub-classes work.
In the example above, the Weapon Master should be just as effective as the Shadowblade. In fact, the Shadowblade with Rush/Stealth might be more effective than the Weapon Master using Rush/Rush in that exchange, depending on how much DPS the follow-up hit deals when coming out of Stealth.
Though most likely, the Fighter would augment Rush with some Fighter ability that capitalizes on the knockdown or stun effect.
At the end of the day, the Shadowblade should be viable as primary Fighter against a top end raid. The way they play their role will as Fighter will have the flavor of a Rogue, but should still be effective at defeating the boss. Rather than it being laughable for the Shadowblade to be viable as main fighter against the top end boss.
The Paladin won't necessarily have to be doing something else to increase Hatred if the other people in her raid are compensating via the usage of their secondary abilities.
If you want to dictate for your raid guild that the main tank must be a Guardian, great.
But, even top end raids should not be designed such that a Guardian as main tank is generally required to defeat the top end raid boss.
And, from the way Steven describes the subclasses and the raid mechanics, top end raids will not be designed such that a Guardian as main tank will generally be required to defeat a top end raid boss.
I don't care about what is better or best, as long as what's used is sufficient to achieve the objective.
I would much rather have a Nightshield or a Spellshield as a main tank than a cookie-cutter Guardian. I would trade diversity and flair for efficiency any day.
If you want to maximize efficiency - great. You get to do that.
Sometimes a single word can change things a lot.
Specifics of the classes in their final form aren't finalized right now.
At this stage, most classes are little more than a concept - a concept that will change based on play testing.
We can only discuss the game design as currently designed.
You can hang on to that one word you highlighted if you want to.
That is not the only quote available from Steven on the subject, but I'm not going to hunt further to find the others.
In addition, I spoke with Steven about combat and sub-classes at PAX West.
I don't really care about convincing you. I'm informing you. And you can believe me or not.
Steven has said that fast travel will only exist with Science nodes - that statement had no qualifiers such as "necessarily". So while discussion on fast travel is valid, it is only valid within the context of how it will be applied within a science nodes ZoI.
imagine a brood warden pulling a metamorphosis muahahaha xd
edit: i wonder what kind of brood tho, spiders are considered a brood thing as well