Should Gathered Items Have a Dynamic Tier/Quality Attribute?

ArchivedUser

I think it would be awesome if you could gather an item, whether that be ore, wood, flowers, whatever. Upon gathering that item will have a base quality stat 1-100 or tier(common,uncommon,rare,legendary,unique) that could be dependent upon the zone/area where you gathered it as well as what tools you used. Also it should be possible to improve the quality through processing(which might require a certain tool or magical item) if you wish.

I think this is would be  a great system because it will add another reason for a crafter to go out of his way to find a gatherer who puts enough time into getting the best quality mats possible so the crafter can create the best possible weapon/armor/tool with his current mastery.

Thoughts and opinions?

ArchivedUser

Anything that makes gatherers and crafters have a bigger role in the world gets a +1 from me.

ArchivedUser

I don't understand the words that came out of your mouth.

ArchivedUser

@sunfrog what dont you understand?

ArchivedUser

I Think It's an OK Idea but the prob is what about Low lvls who can't get the good stuff? There Crafts might be Irrelevant then? I Suppose if they make it Random Equally for all players it might work.

ArchivedUser

oneflaw said:

I Think It's an OK Idea but the prob is what about Low lvls who can't get the good stuff? There Crafts might be Irrelevant then? I Suppose if they make it Random Equally for all players it might work.

That doesn't make any sense...crafting is just like pvp or pve. If you want the good stuff, level up and gain the experience.

ArchivedUser

So Crafting at a low lvl is pointless?

ArchivedUser

I don't think Ashes is focused heavily on lvl, Its mostly Skill Based so should be the same for profession? 

ArchivedUser

 Though I agree there should be a quality system for basic materials, I dont believe area it was harvested in should effect it. Rather, I would like to see let's say 3 basic tiers of material. For example for vegetables or any living ingredients the tiers would be damaged, basic, or healthy. These tiers are greatly affected by your crafting level and the difficulty class of the ingredient. Using higher tier ingredients create either a chance at better stats given or buffs given. Same for armor or weapons basically. Making the higher level you have give you the ability to keep creating new or better things with better ingreduents. 

ArchivedUser

Don't you get to choose what stat? or is it random?

ArchivedUser

It makes sense and adds further value to investing time and effort into the crafting system. It's a good idea. Black Desert Online had a pretty decent crafting system when I played it that did some similar things to that. The trick would be to implement something like what you mentioned without overcomplicating the system itself.

Love the idea of a thorough crafting system, though.

ArchivedUser

So more like the real world. Eg wood from certain forests have different qualities red gum or pine but they futher change based on where you get them. A red gum or pine will be diferent wood if gathered in the desert or on the side of a forestry mountain 

ArchivedUser

I agree we need quality levels for harvesting..not sure if that should be done as gathering or before issuing. But I dont see how that could be done other than as part of harvesting.
The more you go off the beaten track, the harder the content. Harder in this context of an MMO should mean 'requires more people'. Which also should have its own quality mechanism of progression.
So I dont really see any other real choice than to have tier quality components in tiered quality areas of content.
This allows the the right tool for the right job so to speak.

The problem is as stated with the fact that you have pretty much gated content. Although its open world....so stuff can be zerged by pugs if you have no guild. Some areas are supposed to be too dangerous for new players by design.

The bigger problem is, if you have a tiered system, is does it make new and old players impossible to work as a team. That depends on what the 'quality bonus' is. If the quality is targetted at group play wothout effecting solo play too much, it can be OK. The only way I can see that working is to have Quality = AoE cap with gated tiered gear. Why ?...

Group player vs solo player 1v1 = AoE caps may be able to hit 16 people for the group player with legendary gear and only 1 person for the solo player with normal tier gear. But how many people you can hit is irrelevant in a 1v1 perspective. In a 16v16 perspective then those that can hot 16 players vs those that can only hit 1 player does become an issue (ie group play). So AoE caps as the basis of tiered group play appears to fit the bill perfect.

ArchivedUser

Maybe not 1-100 but more 1-10? I like what was mentioned by @Despaireaux by having it be damaged, normal, healthy tiers. So each individual resource be given a small tier system but i also want a variety of the same resource. Instead of just wood there should be many varieties of wood with different properties. Some slightly more rare than others and variety influenced by location it is gathered from and make the trees look different as well of course

ArchivedUser

@oneflaw No the point is so gathering has a way to advance, I mean if you just gather the same stuff over and over it would be boring. Crafting and gathering at a low level should be meaningful at that level, the point is that when you get better at it you should notice your skills are better than they were before. I mean why would you want crafting at low levels to be the same at higher levels?

ArchivedUser

What do you guys think should be the "end game" in terms of crafting? Something fixed (i.e. you got to your rank X in mining meaning that you can mine ores of the types U,V,W of the tiers 8-10 as opposed to just 1-7 from before)? Something endless/dynamic?

It should definitely improve the chance for extra resources, especially if there is a chance for some more rare ones to appear when gathering any common resource.

As an off-topic I'm also curious how you believe the inflation should be handled from all of these resources, in general.

ArchivedUser

@Crusader2010 I personally like if there is an "end game" that just gets expanded upon later through patches/expansions. I like to have an idea of how high I'll be able to go, but I would like a little RNG in place just so it makes it interesting whether that be obtaining rare items while gathering or just extra ores based on your artisan experience. Im not sure how it could ever be truly "endless".

ArchivedUser

Rodzor said:

@Crusader2010 I personally like if there is an "end game" that just gets expanded upon later through patches/expansions. I like to have an idea of how high I'll be able to go, but I would like a little RNG in place just so it makes it interesting whether that be obtaining rare items while gathering or just extra ores based on your artisan experience. Im not sure how it could ever be truly "endless".

Well, it can be endless with some RNG too. Just an idea:

• - you have 1000 tiers for each type of gatherable resource, each with an ever increasing "gathering experience" required in order to advance to the next;
• - due to the (maybe) exponential requirement, no one should be able to achieve tier 1000 even if playing 24h/day, with all possible gathering buffs, for the next X years (where X = the time until an expansion that wants to change/add something to gathering);
• - each time you gather something of a certain type you advance in these levels (e.g. mining gold, mining silver, picking up dandelions etc);
• - the higher the levels, the better the chance of gaining some rare resources that each "node" can drop; so each type of resource should have some rare drops, very rare drops and ultra rare drops;
• - this means that, unless very lucky, you'll need to revisit some (maybe lower level) areas in order to gather certain resources when your levels are higher - to have a better chance at the very rare drops that you need for crafting; this encourages exploration, PvP, the risk of getting corrupted, etc;
• - at certain thresholds in the gathering levels, you can get a bonus in the sense that another resource, previously unknown to you, becomes visible; these should be rare and in quite dangerous places;
• - another way to make levels more fun is to allow specializations (e.g. specialized in mining gold ore); basically each level can be a point you can put into a tree that does some fun/useful things regarding the gathering of a type of resource; could also influence crafting;
  
• - gathering can also be made more fun with some mini games or puzzles that become available at certain gathering levels and guarantee a certain (secret) type of resource if played correctly; these puzzles can also trigger small events, like the plant rising up from the ground and attacking you, etc;
• - everything from above implies that lower level resources will be used even in max level crafting and such; in other words, resources don't become useless at all throughout the game, no matter how good of a crafter you are;
  

This would be more or less endless, provided it gets fleshed out properly (just made a rough draft).

The issue of a huge inflation still remains, in my opinion, even without a global auction house. It's very hard not to create something out of nothing in terms of gathering...

ArchivedUser

• - this means that, unless very lucky, you'll need to revisit some (maybe lower level) areas in order to gather certain resources when your levels are higher - to have a better chance at the very rare drops that you need for crafting; this encourages exploration, PvP, the risk of getting corrupted, etc;

@Crusader2010 I like this point a lot, i hope something like that is in place so gathering doesnt seem linear, instead all resources can be important in end-game even something you gather at level 1-10 can still be used to make end game armor, the only difference is the amount you need/tier of the item, like you mentioned at level 1-10 it would be nearly impossible unless lucky to get those items then but when you master your gathering more you can get them much more easily.

ArchivedUser

Also with the complex node system I'm pretty sure I heard them say as the node levels up the area around it will unlock new and interesting things to explore. I'm also assuming the types of resources in the area will adapt/upgrade with the nodes zone.

ArchivedUser

I think so too that there should be some kind of quality system. From better quality resources you can craft better quality items or better quality resources can give you more units when processing the raw mats. So yeah its easy to build system around this. 

And what it comes to gathering and harvesting, i suggest devs to implement interesting, rich and rewarding system. In many games gathering is beyond grind and static work, which leads easily to boredom. So the first step is to make progression mean something and have lots of milestones with bonuses. New levels unlocks new skills, new tools to use, faster gathering, more yield, better chance to find something uncommon, rare or extremely rare, better chance to find better quality resources and so on. 

So in practise this would mean that if i have gathered a huge amount of ore and maybe especially iron, then i will be high level expert iron miner and i will find more easily better ore/iron resources and i am faster miner than others who has mined less than me. I should have better chance to find that rare saphire, which is needed to craft Frost staff for mages. Maybe i have better chance to get "little rock monster pup" which can be raised to be a pet or a mount. So making the gathering droptable rich is really important.

ArchivedUser

@Ferryman Yes, there should definitely be a complex system of things to look forward to ("rewards") when pursuing all artisans, not just gathering. My only drive while gathering should never just be to gather X amount of ore = a level. Obviously you would gain experience for the act of gathering the ore, but it should not necessarily be the main focus/reason.

ArchivedUser

I love having quality to components. I also like having crafters have control/skill over their crafts. I think a master crafter using mediocre materials should be able to put out better stuff than a mediocre crafter using high-end materials. And a master crafter using high-end materials should be able to make amazing things.

ArchivedUser

Any type of gathering/crafting system that leans toward the SWG version I'm all for, but the better and more involved they make it will take alot more time and resources.  

ArchivedUser

I'm really hoping for a robust and involved crafting system. I hate how in games if two players max out say blacksmithing they are both crafting the same items of the same quality. We need an MMORPG that has crafting/gathering feel as relevant as it does in Eve Online. Eve might be a point and click space adventure spreadsheet game. But none do player driven economy close to it's level of involvement. As a player who enjoys all aspects of MMOs I'm hoping AoC can scratch all those itches for me. lol

ArchivedUser

I personally loved the High Quality materials system in FF14. As you leveled up it did become easier to get HQ materials, but it was still possible at lower levels. Also, even if you didn't gather HQ, when you processed the raw materials into ingots you could still craft HQ things by being good at the crafting mini-game. 

ArchivedUser

If it is finds from a skill like skinning it would be cool to have qualities, but I don't think it would make sense for just regular drops.  I don't really like the idea that two people could have killed the same enemy and gotten different drops.  Basically, with the exception of specific modifiers and skills (like skinning or maybe if % increased gold find is a thing) I think loot tables should be generated at spawn, not at death, like many games have done.

ArchivedUser

I think a single dimension of low-to-high quality is too simplistic. I'd much rather have a system like SWG where every resource had a collection of different characteristics. There, a resource could have variable cold resistance, conductivity, decay resistance, entangle resistance, flavor, heat resistance, malleability, overall quality, potential energy, shock resistance, unit toughness. Any of these characteristics could range from 0 to 1000 on a given resource spawn, and different combinations were useful for differently customized item craftings. Those spawns would remain stable for days or weeks, reappearing in new distributions with new values after.

It would be common to have conversations like, "Hey, do you have any of that tolium gas discovered on Naboo last year? The potential energy and conductivity on that stuff would be awesome for these detonation modules I'm working on."

Advanced players then would get the best results in crafting because over time they acquired all these variable resources, and through forethought and planning they would have the resources best suited for whatever item they were making.

I'm hoping for a a similar system with fantasy-themed characteristics.

ArchivedUser

Kebtiz said:

If it is finds from a skill like skinning it would be cool to have qualities, but I don't think it would make sense for just regular drops.  I don't really like the idea that two people could have killed the same enemy and gotten different drops.  Basically, with the exception of specific modifiers and skills (like skinning or maybe if % increased gold find is a thing) I think loot tables should be generated at spawn, not at death, like many games have done.

I dont see any problems if people will get different drops from same mobs. It just depends of the loot table and drop chances for every item. And what it comes to money drops. It should not be the same all the time. When mob spawns it will have f.e. 50 coins to drop. With time that amount will raise (scale up) towards gap, which can be f.e. 100 coins. That will prevent farming in same place.

ArchivedUser

I approve this concept @Rodzor

ArchivedUser

Ferryman said:
I dont see any problems if people will get different drops from same mobs. It just depends of the loot table and drop chances for every item. And what it comes to money drops. 

I don't mean that every enemy of the same type should drop the exact same loot, just that the loot should be populated at spawn, and not by some metric that varies based on the player who kills it at time of death.  I understand dynamic loot tables keep drops interesting.

IE a level 20 fighter shouldn't have different loot tables for the same mob than a 25 cleric has.